Is there an era in which either Europe or S-A was truly dominant ?

There are specific points that have to be clarified:

I didn't mean Nantes as a continental-class team, but on a team in a different category to the current. They were the French champions, had been on the top of their competition at late 70's and had very good players like Trossero, Bossis, Michel, Tusseau, Rampillon, Amisse or Pécout.

Then, we've to remember that Kempes didn't play the role of the natural goalscorer, but the link from midfield to the attack (despite he won twice the Trofeo Pichichi and was the top goalscorer of the 1979/80 UEFA Cup Winners' Cup) and probably we shouldn't be guided by his scoring production in individual matches, but all those who remember his spell in Spain recognize him as the figure who held Valencia at the first European stage at that time and, yes, left a deep mark because he's widely regarded as the best player of all-time of the club (clearly over names like Ayala, Puchades, Mendieta, Wilkes, Mundo or Villa).

• http://espndeportes.espn.go.com/news/story?id=1912803&s=esp&type=story
• http://valenciacf.lasprovincias.es/leyendas/matador.html

Personally, I'd say that he showed the talent to be considered one of the best players in the world between 1976 and 1980.

 

To be fair, I think Kopa is in the same ratio of Schiaffino in an all-time comparison.

 

Kempes was sometimes underrated *at least compared to Rossi, Keegan Rummenigge ...in the same era ...

Your'e right that Kempes was NOT a striker as many thought or mistaken. In fact he played more in MF (usually wide left) than as a FW (behind striker)

For example this is Argentina 1978 WC team formation : 4 3 3 and 3 4 3
--------16 Ortiz 14 Luque 4 Bertoni
--10 Kempes--- 2 Ardiles---- 6 Gallego
20 Tarantini 19 Passarella 7 L. Galván 15 Olguin
--------------------- 5 Fillol

For Valencia he played often as left FW in 4 3 3 at his PEAK. and as 2nd FW in 4 4 2 in his last few seasons 80-84

 

Once again results matter and you are trying to diminish them to use opinions. Brasil was the best team going into 2010 WC. Yet they failed to win hence Spain is considered the best team in 2010. Only thing that matters is the results not how they looked before or how many goals they scored. If not I can name five teams that looked better than spain during 2010 WC. But the only team that raised the trophy was Spain.


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Your best European players are going against the "second tier" of the South American greatest for that decade. Pele, DiStefano and Garrincha completely outclass their European counterparts, where only Puskas is at that level. After that you have Didi, Schiaffino and Kopa, then below them come Gento, Bozsik, Rial, Coutinho, etc. South America also has in the Santos duo, superior fullbacks to the European ones.

 

As usual, you do not address my points.

What is the source for this? Your links do not say that at all.The second link says that he was the most important player, but also that he played during a time when Valencia was a force.

This is ofc a rhetorical question because I know that you will not provide sources anyway.

 

Also a question to the others, how does fare Zizinho against Schiaffino? Who was the 'better' player and achieved the most?

 

You keep talking about bad luck and bad referee decisions but you cant come up with any to refute the results I brought up. As for being a HW champion I'll but the klitschko brothers vs any champion of any era and they will win at least half or more of those bouts.


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I had stated my opinion a few times ...
- better player is sometimes differently from another player who achieved more!
- Zizihno was surely a "better player" while Shiaffino won the WC (achieved more)
that's similar to a Zico vs Zidane. Zico was a better player (in skillset) but a Zidane achieved more ....

a "people's choices" and opnionated!

 

It's about even in talent, but surely Schiaffino by beating Zizinho at the Maracana in the biggest game of all deserves a higher ranking.

 

I know this must be some pretty excellent folklore for you (maybe nearly almost like Andy Linighan and his cup winning header for me) but I find it weird that someone can make the decision that one is better than the other by the width of one shock result in a team game.

 

LOL so you dont think the klitchkos can beat Tyson, Ali, Frasier?



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It's a team game but Schiaffino played better than Zizinho in that match, and it wasn't just any match.

Tyson pre-incarceration would beat either of them before twelve rounds. Ali at his best would outclass them with ease.

 

I must confess that I'm impressed with your response because I don't believe you don't know a so popular opinion. In any case, if that's true, you can also check out these links:

http://www.ciberche.net/historia/la-historia-del-valencia/los-anos-70
http://www.informavalencia.com/depo...o-del-mejor-de-todos-los-tiempos-mario-kempes
http://m.golcaracol.com/futbol-inte...alencia-homenajeara-a-su-matador-mario-kempes
http://www.somosche.com/wiki/Mario_Kempes
http://www.levante-emv.com/deportes/2013/09/28/kempes-quise-volver/1036645.html
http://deportes.terra.com/valencia/...1b7495e763211410VgnVCM20000099cceb0aRCRD.html
http://www.antesydespues.com.ar/mario-kempes/

But if you prefer don't believe in any of them you can get many other sources by yourself if you're interested.

 

I feel it's hard to say, but I tend to consider better to Zizinho. He's described as one of a kind in the 40's, at a similar level of Moreno and Pedernera, and with more exciting skills and equally elegant posture than Schiaffino, but also much more polyfunctional to play as CM, WG or FW. At 19 he was one of the stars of Flamengo (alongside Domingos and Leonidas) that changed the status of the club winning 3 consecutive Campeonatos Carioca and making it one of the country's most popular. At late 40's he was popularly considered the best Brazilian player ever ahead of Friedenreich and Leonidas.

In any case, they were found in the 1950 World Cup and despite Schiaffino was a instrumental player for "El Maracanazo", Zizinho was selected as the best player of the tournament. Then Schiaffino had a remarkable spell in AC Milan and played well the 1954 World Cup while Zizinho refuse to play the 1954 and 1958 editions because considered that he was already out of shape (32-36 years old).

On the other hand, Schiaffino won more. He played for better clubs like Peñarol and AC Milan.

 

Why do you think so?, every report of that game indicates that the best Uruguayan player at the decisive match or the most influential was Obdulio Varela, then probably Roque Máspoli, which is understandable due to the best defensive game of Uruguay.

Zizinho was selected as the best player of the whole tournament. I think the Brazilian won the individual duel.

 

Examples of authoritative sources who saw it that way? No, you don't have to post the articles but curious about who assessed it in that way.

How was this established? By opinion polls? Votes among journalists?

The FIFA Golden Ball is a retrospective award, assigned in the late 90s or so. I've read some sources as well who considered Schiaffino the best forward of the tournament, making the ideal teams (though journalists could hardly watch and assess all matches).
Do you know by which organization or publication this 'best player' title was assigned?

EDIT:

I see you repeat it again.

By who exactly?

 

One of the best little gems I found a while ago on the internet is that Vittorio Pozzo had both Schiaffino and Zizinho in his own personal best XI of the 1950 World Cup.

Williams (England); Gonzales (Uruguay), Nilsson (Sweden); Bauer (Brazil), Nordahl (Sweden), Wright (England); Ghiggia (Uruguay), Zizinho (Brazil), Mortenson (England), Schiaffino (Uruguay), Finney (England).

He also mentions some other notable performers.
http://www.archiviolastampa.it/comp...,4/articleid,1602_02_1950_0171_0004_22400812/

Ofc, he wasn't objective like a mathematician either (he was a known Anglophile) but a two times World Cup winning coach (1934 & 1938) was talking here.

 

I think you're doing the same that in the case of Kempes (which I hope has been clear for you mate) asking about so popular opinions like you really don't know about them.

I can't determine who is an authoritative source and I couldn't watch that tournament by myself, so like any other person less than 80 years and not present in every game of the championship in Brazil I can only guide me by the official information (FIFA) and the ton of reports that you can find easily in internet.

To submit for a legitimate doubt I think you'd have to detail what are the sources that you point where apparently Schiaffino was the best player of the tournament ahead of Zizinho (personally I never read one) and the reasons because those might have more credibility than the most, almost all the rest.

Maybe you or anyone have new and unreleased information and would be very interesting to know about it, but until then I don't think it's enough to be debatable.

 

It is a so popular opinion that Zizinho was at the late 40s seen as the best ever by popular opinion?

As far as Kempes is concerned, you said that he was "clearly" over other historic Valencia players. I'm not so sure. The individual awards that Kempes received (like Onze d'Or) are based on his 1978 World Cup with the national team.
Meanwhile, some other Valencia players received 'best player in Spain' awards (for example Wilkes), 'best midfielder at Champions League' (for example Mendieta) distinctions and so on. Kempes never received such distinctions based on his club performances with Valencia, except the topscorer titles, and his match ratings are plain poor.

To state it clear: I don't know whether Zizinho or Schiaffino was better, that is why I ask.

I'm not so interested though in modern day popular opinions about who was more skilful, and if it is said that Zizinho was by acclamation seen as the best ever at the late 40s I like to know how this view was established and recorded. I don't have to know the exact article but whether this is traceable instead of just hearsay.