Is the Italian Game Too Slow?

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by dor02, Mar 14, 2010.

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Is the Italian style too slow?

Poll closed Mar 14, 2011.
  1. Yes

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  2. No

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. dor02

    dor02 Member

    Aug 9, 2004
    Melbourne
    Club:
    UC Sampdoria
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    Italian clubs have witnessed another poor season in European competitions. Inter is now the only Italian team left in the CL and they haven't got many Italians in their squad anyway. Juve is in the Europa League but that was because Bayern destroyed them in the CL Group Stage.

    Aside from Milan's 2007 CL win, the post-Calciopoli era has been anti-climatic for Italian clubs. Milan's win also seems to be a false dawn. It looked like that Italian clubs could still do well in Europe but most of the time, the Italian teams are overwhelmed by other European teams, not to mention their embarassing record against EPL clubs.

    The thing about Milan's win in '07 was that Kaka was in great form and in Carlo Ancelotti, Milan had one of the world's best coaches. Now in 2010, Milan's ageing squad was finally beating by Man Utd for a change. There was no Ancelotti and no Kaka. The team is far too old, with most of the team being over 30 years old. Only Pato, Abate and Antonini are the regulars under 30 and Abate is being played out of position (he's really a right-winger).

    It's not just Milan who are too slow. As much as I love watching the Serie A, I do feel that most teams are too static. Players are either too afraid to run or their speed of thought is non-existant. The Italian style is known for its emphasis on clever play and tactics but how can these players succeed if their thinking is slow too? The Argentine style is known to be slow but at least players are willing to show off their skills, display confidence on the ball, be inventive and not get bogged down into playing tactical roles.

    It would be a misunderstanding to think that I want the Italians to adapt an English style of play. Italians can't run like rabbits for 90 minutes but at least Italian sides knew how to get goals on the counter-attack. The only side in the Serie A that really knows how to play a great counter-attacking game is Bari. They have arguably the weakest roster in the Serie A but Giampiero Ventura has built a team with a solid defence and that's rapid on the counter. They also have a tricky right-winger in Edgar Alvarez, who also has some blistering pace. Gazzi and Allegretti play on the left and give good service.

    The Italian style is also known for being very narrow and placing little emphasis on wingers, if any at all. Italian teams have had a tendancy to rely on full-backs for width but even they aren't enough. Juve, for example, rely on Camoranesi and De Ceglie to give width from midfield (depending on the formation) otherwise the likes of Caceres, Grygera and Grosso have to give width. If that doesn't work, Juve would just kick to Diego and he has to supply tall targets like Amauri and Iaquinta, who are better suited to aerial games. As a result, Juve can congest their own midfield and hurt themselves.

    Aside from Bari, Sampdoria is another team that uses width in Italy and in Luigi Del Neri, Sampdoria has a coach who places emphasis on wing-play. Guberti is a tricky left-winger, Semioli and Padalino play on the right and Mannini can play on both wings. The latter also has a good scoring rate. They prbably do it too often (watch the recent Inter game) but on their day, Sampdoria play the most entertaining calcio in Italy. It also helps to have a support striker like Antonio Cassano.

    After recent disappointments in Europe, it's not easy to spot where the change for Italian clubs will come. Is Italy still recovering from calciopoli? Is it all economics? Is it Italy's footballling culture? Italian teams are known to focus more on the result than on artistry but Italy still has lots of talent. Italian teams do seem to take too much time on the ball and focus too much on thinking instead of playing. They're also too much focus on going down the middle and finding an option down the corridor while there is an abundance of space on the wings. Considering the poor performances in Europe recently and the manner Italian teams play, is the Italian game too slow for its own good?
     
    1 person likes this.
  2. Daei_10

    Daei_10 Member+

    Aug 22, 2007
    LA, California
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    ive always disagreed with the stereotype of italian football, i think there are some great technical talents there and they also have stamina, good example was in 2006 world cup where they outran the germans in semifinals...

    i think the problem is not enough money being pumped into the league as it used to and it could be due to fans boycotting games cuz seats are expensive or the corruption of few years ago where it set teams like juve, milan and fiorentina back...overall its been downhill since then.
     
  3. dor02

    dor02 Member

    Aug 9, 2004
    Melbourne
    Club:
    UC Sampdoria
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    Using the German match as an example, I think that's one of numerous scenarios in which the Azzurri can stand up when it matters most. Unfortunately, Italian clubs in Europe look too stiff and scared for my liking and they show too much respect to the EPL clubs. English media pundits can use the "pace and stamina" stereotype as a reason for the EPL teams crushing the Italians and one simple reasoning has been proven time and time again.
     
  4. Gregoriak

    Gregoriak BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 27, 2002
    Munich
    Well, if one team has played a 120-minutes game plus penalties the round before and the other team has played a 90 minutes game, that will show in the meeting of these two teams.

    I doubt Italy would have "outrun" the Germans if the situation had been the opposite (Italy tired because of a 120-minutes game and Germany relatively fresh from a 90-minutes game the previous round).
     
  5. Gregoriak

    Gregoriak BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 27, 2002
    Munich
    How would you compare the pace of the Italian game to that of the Spanish?

    The Spanish too have a reputation of playing a slower brand of football, yet they have not been in crisis as much as Serie A teams.
     
  6. dor02

    dor02 Member

    Aug 9, 2004
    Melbourne
    Club:
    UC Sampdoria
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    Spain has has some good wide players, which Italy hasn't got much of and the tempo in La Liga is getting faster. Italy has had this defensive culture for too long and Spain always attack. The talent is there but Italian coaches need to courage his players to enjoy keeping possession but also think or pass faster. The Spaniards position themselves well and move the ball wisely.
     
  7. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    I'm not sure it's a question of pace. More of the quality of players. Fewer and fewer top foreigners are going to Serie A now compared to those of the 1980s or 1990s. That has been the biggest factor in the decline in IMO and that is driven by money.
     
  8. Gregoriak

    Gregoriak BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 27, 2002
    Munich
    Which is similar to the 1970s, which also showed a decline in Serie A fortunes in Europe, because of the ban on importing foreign players.
     
  9. RichardL

    RichardL BigSoccer Supporter

    May 2, 2001
    Berkshire
    Club:
    Reading FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Back then though, hardly any nations imported foreign players. There'd be a handful about, but that would be it.

    There were more than a few complaints that English clubs were able to field players from across the British Isles, when clubs from other countries almost exclusively used players from their own country.
     
  10. GranCanMan

    GranCanMan Member

    Jan 12, 2007
    Manchester
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England

    I know this might sound like I'm sitting on the fence a little, but I think it's a combination of the two.

    The pace of modern day football has increased exponentially from what it used to be. Bare in mind that Figo was 29, Zidane 28 and Rivaldo 27 when they won their respective World Player of the Year awards at the start of the last decade. In contrast, the last 3 WPOTY awards have gone to Ronaldo, 24, Messi, 22, and Kaka, 25. This year AC Milan struggled to cope with 24 year old Wayne Rooney, and his constant pace and work rate.

    Football, it seems, is becoming a young mans game, and this does not benefit Italian clubs, who are no longer throwing money around like they were when the likes of Crespo, Nedved, Vieri and Mendieta were all moving/arriving in Italy for fee's of £30m and above. Indeed, 10-12 years ago, the worlds elite were all swarming to Italy, and it's gravey train, when even the likes of Lazio and Roma were paying staggering transfer fees and wages, nevermind the Milan clubs, Juventus and even Fiorentina.

    I know it's selective to cite one game, but the players on display last night between Fulham and Juventus were in different leagues. One one side you have Trezeguet, Cannavarro and Hasan Salihamidzic - experienced CL players. On the other, you have Zoltan Gera, Bobby Zamora and Mark Schwarzer - relative journeymen from the lower reaches of the EPL. But the pace that thy played at put Juve on the back foot, and the same was evident when United played Milan.

    Inter, of course were the exception.

    I think it's a lack of money, and therefore quality, coupled with the more patient approach that is usually adopted by Italian sides. As football becomes more and more athletic in it's nature, so Italy, and it's lack of money to sign the worlds best players, may fall behind.
     
    1 person likes this.
  11. Daei_10

    Daei_10 Member+

    Aug 22, 2007
    LA, California
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    but if u really look at it, milan won in 2007 and they were in the finals in 2005 i think it was...juventus was among the top 4 in 2008 when man u won...so if u consider stats which seems to be the examples used in these arguments, it hasnt been as bad as you think.

    This juventus-fulham game for ex; juve has been on a slump all year, even in serie A they have been terrible, then they were missing some major players like chiellini, buffon (they used 3rd string goalie), marchisio and Iaquinta, etc... then they got a stupid red card which ruined the game for them...so its not like they were there with their good squad and they lost.

    in conclusion, i dont think EPL teams would be able to beat serie A teams if they were on their prime and had all their players together, it would be up to par and the la liga is really just two teams; barca and madrid which madrid has been out on the 2nd round for the past 6 years i think, valencia and sevilla never do anything so its really only been barca who has done something.
     
  12. dor02

    dor02 Member

    Aug 9, 2004
    Melbourne
    Club:
    UC Sampdoria
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    Italy have always been big of foreigners. Even with a foreigner limit, Italian clubs would always find a way to "naturalise" the Argentines and Uruguayans of Italian origin.

    Good post. Italy has been stuggling to attract foreigner stars and there are too many veterans in the Serie A. You could be a veteran from Serie B or Lega Pro and still do well in Serie A. The greatest disappointment is that most fo Italy's young talent isn't given enough matchtime to prove themselves.

    I think Harry Boulton made a good point. It could be a mix yet I still feel that Italian sides try too much to go play down the middle of the park and place too much emphasis on slowing the game down. If we switch the topic to NT football and look at Italy's record at international tornaments, the Italian teams that won contained at least one quality winger.

    For the Serie A in general, the star foreigners are lacking but we can't use the quality of players as an excuse for Fulham v Juve. Juve might have players out but they shouldn't have lost to Fulham. Simple as that. IMO, Juve were too willing to wind down the clock.
     
  13. Ecclesiastes2003

    May 30, 2003
    Is the Italian style too slow? I answered yes, but with the caveat that I actually like it that way. There are times when I prefer the smart, technical, possession oriented, tactical, organized football with a cautious pace in Serie A, but it does seem that particular style, at least as the Italian teams in Europe have used it lately, has not worked well for them. Maybe it's a question of needing better players because, after all, Italian teams did win 11 Champion's leagues using this same style.

    Also, as has been mentioned, couldn't the slower pace have something to do with the amount of (in football terms) "old" people running around? What I mean by that is that, correct me if I am wrong, but players seem to retire at an older age in Italy than they do in other leagues. As someone already mentioned, Milan is full of these types of players, Favalli is like 38, Costacurta and Maldini didn't retire until they were around 40, and a few years ago, at age 43 Lazio's Marco Ballotta was the oldest player to have played in the Champion's League (albeit as a goalkeeper).

    I also dug up this FIFA article that discusses the surplus of veterans in Serie A...

    "Given the plethora of veterans plying their trade in the land of the Azzurri, you would be forgiven for thinking the air in Italy contained rejuvenating properties. Alberto Fontana, who previously played in goal for Atalanta Bergamo, Napoli and Inter Milan, is, at 40, now the pride of Palermo. Meanwhile, his former captain, Eugenio Corini, three years his junior, left Sicily in the summer to join Torino after their promotion to Serie A."

    The article also mentions how Teddy Sheringham was still playing at 41, but aging players in the Premier League seem to be less common to start in elite Premiere League teams (with a couple of obvious exceptions in a certain Manchester team). In Italy aging players start/play all the time in the top teams (off the top of my head I think of Cannavaro, Seedorf, Javier Zanetti, Del Piero, etc etc etc.).
     
  14. Ecclesiastes2003

    May 30, 2003
    ^^^ Having said that, I don't mind seeing players in their late 30's and 40's play and start in Serie A. Just put them on the bench if you are going to play against a fast team in Europe :D.
     
  15. jpick

    jpick Member

    Jul 5, 2006
    jacksonville, FL
    Club:
    AC Milan
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    you mentioned pato (he didn't play) and abate is just an average player, not much has changed between 2005 and 2010 except quality of the team, that has less to do with style and more with finances. Look at the dutch league, is it style that has led to their massive decline? italy played slow in the mid-late '90s and early part of this decade. the game hasn't change that much in 7-15 years, italy just right now can't compete financially (though I think the rules for avoiding debt are very good in the long run).

    as for italy's players, it is just a down cycle after a great batch of players, within a 6 window italy was fortunate to have buffon, nesta, cannavaro, zambrotta, pirlo, gattuso, toni, inzaghi, totti, del piero, and vieri who were almost all in their primes between 2000-2006, where italy took home one senior trophy, came within seconds of another, got an olympic medal (a big deal since euro nations were disadvantaged in the current format since the euro and the olympics always occurred at the same summer, and it was hard to get players and teams to agree to release overage players to play 2 tournaments so close), and dominated the best european youth division.

    the '80-'86 window barring a few exceptions like de rossi and chiellini have been really disappointing, guys like ferrari, barzagli, zaccardo, amelia, cassano, pazzini, moretti, pasqual, rosina, dainelli, nocerino, barone, canini, de ceglie, foggia, et al and even gilardino have all been big disappointments relative to what was hoped of them, and in an azzurri shirt, montolivo and aquilani have so far been disappointing as well...that is a bigger difference to me than style, it has been a half decade of busts relative to some of the past italian generations. hell, name one playmaker now under 30 for italy who can compare to the late '90s when you had baggio, totti, and del piero for 10s all at the same time, that makes a difference.

    my $.02
     
  16. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    Actually, it is.. "older players" (vet of stars) could still do ok in Serie A because of the slower pace and rythm of the games ... note the guys over 34 like Maldidi, Favali, Inzaghi, Zanetti, Cordoba, Seedorf, Figo, Del Piero, Beckham , Materazzi, Nesta, Canavaro ...

    SerieA valued those guys with their experiences and reading games capability to cope with different tactics rather than their pace ... and I bet these guys won't survive in EPL game more than 45mins or Liga in 65mins respectively

    The COINCIDENCE of "slower pace" and "Serie A degrade in performance" is there to be a big debate ...
     
  17. dor02

    dor02 Member

    Aug 9, 2004
    Melbourne
    Club:
    UC Sampdoria
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    I see your point but Pazzini has only really been given a chance to shine at Sampdoria, Cassano screws himself over with his attitude, De Ceglie should always play at LM and never at LB and Foggia hardly gets matchtime at Lazio, which I think is absurd (the club in general is absurd). Aquilani is injured for most of the time and Montolivo is used as a CM at club level. He has been crap for Italy but the reason why he was rated at a young age was that he was an excellent AM at youth level.

    Milan under Sacchi did play a faster style than the other Italian winners but they were an exceptional side.

    The quality of players becomes evident when you look at the fact that the players aren't as smart or technical as they used to be and the coaches aren't as effective in their decision making. Some Italian coaches aren't tactically outstanding and when a guy like Ranieri can get the coaching job at Juve, that's showing something.

    Italy does have too many old players, not to mention that players like Favalli and Ballotta weren't that outstanding in their prime.
     
  18. jpick

    jpick Member

    Jul 5, 2006
    jacksonville, FL
    Club:
    AC Milan
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    even with playing time or other mitigating circumstances, those players have been lackluster for the azzurri.

    as far as the other parts of your post, I still don't think the italian game was much faster in 2003 when 3 out of 4 semifinalists were italian, than right now, just the teams had better players all in their primes. Finances changed that and the pendulum has swung as most of these cycles go, if italy gets some good investment and a solid footing financially again (or other leagues pull an early 2000s serie a and have debt problems), then the quality will increase again. heck, most of important players for milan were actually important players in 02-03 (nesta, pirlo, dida, gattuso, and seedorf), and yes over 8 years they have gotten older and/or slower, but unfortunately the cost of replacing even an older nesta or pirlo is pretty expensive, and it takes time to rebuild when you can only buy 1 key player or so every transfer window (one window it was pato, another dinho, another window thiago silva, then huntelaar on the cheap last window, compare to real madrid who can turn over half a roster of superstars in one transfer window alone, cost be damned)
     
  19. jcvf90

    jcvf90 Member

    Dec 12, 2006
    Boca Raton, FL
    I also think the mentality of Manager in Italy is that they trust the older players to win. You never hear about young Italian talent. Sebastian Giovinco came to be known as a 'young' italian talent at age 21! At 21 in other leagues you already know if you are gonna be balling in the top teams or the lower teams. (there is always the exception of late bloomers, but its hard to believe all Italians are late bloomers).

    Also the money situation does not help. Italy does not have the best economy and ticket prices are super high. Italy cannot bring in the best players anymore as it did. I think its all a cycle and one day they will be back at being the most feared league.
     
  20. dor02

    dor02 Member

    Aug 9, 2004
    Melbourne
    Club:
    UC Sampdoria
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    The stupid thing about Giovinco is that he could have went on loan if he wanted to. He played every game in the 07-08 season for Empoli but they got relegated to Serie B.
     
  21. Cool Rob

    Cool Rob Member

    Sep 26, 2002
    Chicago USA
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Great stuff!

    Agreed. Serie A is the now the polar opposite of the old "hard running" English style. In the 1990's EPL teams would be picked apart by slower, more tactical Italian teams who "read" games and reacted ("reading" takes time), while EPL players relied on running over tactics. England couldn't adjust until more foreign coaches entered the EPL.

    Now Serie A has the same problem in reverse, spending way too much time "reading" instead of running. If everyone does it in Serie A you get away with it. But Europe is different. Just the game passed England by in the late 1980's/early 1990's (euro ban didn't help), the same is happening to Italy now. It's younger and more dynamic. Everyone is faster.

    IMO, the pace of Serie A is the result of 1) natural inclination towards elaborate tactics, which favors slower, older players, 2) lack of trust in younger players (ie Giovinco), seen as tactically naive, 3) lack of relative financial power to replace stars of early 2000's.

    The $$$ issue is huge. When Man City can outbid AC Milan and Juve for anyone...you know things have changed (if someone predicted this a decade ago you would have thought they were insane). Serie A is very, very insular, so foreign investment will take a while- in the meantime only Juve will have a big revenue-generating stadium.

    Lets face it- Italian dominance had a lot to do with the financial dominance of hyper-paid patrons like the Agnellis, Morattis, and Burlesconi, which seems to be waning. Hell, Italy even had corprations like Parmalat and Cirio bankrolling the world's best. EPL teams have the new sugar daddies and the (two) La Liga teams have the stadiums and global marketing…where does that leave Serie A, who never had to bother with either?

    Inter is like the Italian Arsenal- they're Italian, but barely. Not a coincidence they're the only ones left.
     
    1 person likes this.
  22. Daei_10

    Daei_10 Member+

    Aug 22, 2007
    LA, California
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    yes looking at milan and juve, coaches seem to make the older players play more while the young ones get rotten on the bench

    examples; giovinco, santon (inter)

    also some of the good players are in average teams like di natale, quagliarella, miccoli, foggia.......when they need to be in the top 4 teams....it should be those teams that take the lead in developing italian football but in recent years that doesnt seem to be the case. perfect example is inter, they sit santon, ballotelli and materazzi and play all the other argentinian, brazilians, etc....materazzi is understandable but the other 2 should have some type of special favoritism being italian

    santon's example also hurts the national team, this year he's been either injured or benched so lippi as a coach cant really consider him for the world cup since he doesnt play regularly. He is young and very talented, he should really take the place of slow zambrotta
     
  23. Tororoso

    Tororoso New Member

    Mar 5, 2010
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Bulgaria
    I voted YES.

    When players who play in Italy, go somewhere out of there, they need at least several months to acclimatize to the faster style of football. This can be seen in England at most ;)
     
  24. dor02

    dor02 Member

    Aug 9, 2004
    Melbourne
    Club:
    UC Sampdoria
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    Balotelli is too much of a headcase and tends to bring these things on himself.

    Santon is different. I'd play him all the time and move J Zanetti into the midfield.
     
  25. Daei_10

    Daei_10 Member+

    Aug 22, 2007
    LA, California
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    Toni scored 40 goals in his first season at Bayern

    Ibrahimovic is shadowed by all the great players in barcelona and he's missing his easy chances


    What youre saying is actually opposite, players who come to serie A cant adjust; eto'o, diego, dossena
     

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