Is The Chivas Train Derailing?

Discussion in 'MLS: News & Analysis' started by Knave, Apr 17, 2005.

  1. Stan Collins

    Stan Collins Member+

    Feb 26, 1999
    Silver Spring, MD
    Moi aussi. IMHO, there's a lot of evidence at this point that this thing is salvagable.

    They udnerestimated the strength of the league, and overestimated what fans were willing to pay to see a slice of Chivas. Indications are that they understand most of the mistakes they've made, which to my mind are:

    1. They needed at least one offensive star to build around (they tried in Palencia, but in this league you always need a Plan B)

    2. They charged too much for tickets

    If they fix these two problems, Chivas, and especially the Chivas-LA Classico, can still be a real asset to this league. I think most opinions to the contrary are motivated by schadenfreude.
     
  2. Stan Collins

    Stan Collins Member+

    Feb 26, 1999
    Silver Spring, MD
    You both have points.

    To defend VS, two of those guys (Ramos and Mastroeni) were actually born in another country, and none of the rest of them (AFAIK) come from US 'barrios' (ie they were all upper middle class suburban types). There's room to believe that in general, Chivas might do a better job of developing US-Latino talent than we've done so far if they put some real work into it.

    To defend you, Chivas are an expansion team. Let me repeat that: Chivas are an expansion team. They got most of the non-allocated players from the expansion draft, and you don't get stars from the expansion draft unless somebody makes a big mistake. What you get, for the most part, are guys who have failed with other teams or at least have big question marks.

    Not only did they not get Reyna and Bocanegra, they didn't even get Garcia and Burciaga, because their team (in this case, KC) values them too much to let them go in an expansion draft. Instead they got Francisco Gomez, a player who was available specifically because he had never really clicked with the Wizards.

    But there's time. Chivas will have high draft picks this year and possibly a YS allocation. They've got eight young developmental players (plus Aaron Lopez, who isn't a dev player but is young). They'll eventually get a more equal opportunity at the next generation of young US-Latinos. If they prove better at finding them than the next team, they have a shot to eventually be good. They have an even better chance if they go into the LA barrios and develop these kids from a young age, but that will also take longer to pay off.

    {Note: it's interesting that not of one of their DEV players have played in a senior team game so far. What it means is open to interpretation.}
     
  3. kpaulson

    kpaulson New Member

    Jun 16, 2000
    Washington DC
    I think what you mean is that the talent of the homegrown Mexican-American player is, relative to the proportion of the US population, surprisingly weak. If you had Amado Guevara in midfield, Diego Gutierrez, Caballero, Guerrero, Ruiz, Pando, etc, you'd have quite a team.

    I still think it's a minor mystery why few Mexican-Americans have done anything-- either for the US or Mexico in soccer. Just as a minor, minor example, if Donovan owes some of his skill to playing with latinos growing up, where are the latinos he played with? It doesn't make sense and it's one of those things that I'm still hoping that Chivas can help fix. And the current struggles of the team have absolutely ZERO reflection on their ability to do that-- all spin aside, it's simply got to be a long-term project.
     
  4. Saltenya94

    Saltenya94 Member

    Jul 29, 2003
    Brooklyn
    Club:
    DC United
    So did DeMarcus Beasley. Great question. Where are these soccer-playing latinos?
     
  5. Roma_Wolves

    Roma_Wolves New Member

    May 4, 2004
    Austin, Texas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Maybe someone already said this (I didn't read the whole thread), but this is the third month of their first season in existence for Chrissakes. Give'em a break. The average business takes at least two years to get off the ground.

    DC's first five years, when the whole league was in the same boat, are not comparable.

    SLC who doesn't have a hugely successful competitor in the same market, is not comparable.

    Give'em a chance. I think they'll be fine. Although, they DO need to figure out their on-the-field issues and win some games.
     
  6. Rommul

    Rommul Member

    Aug 26, 2003
    NYC
    My guess is they are being ignored by the system.

    Now I went and done it!!!!

    /ducks
     
  7. kpaulson

    kpaulson New Member

    Jun 16, 2000
    Washington DC
    Look, you can afford to be agnostic about whether the system is as efficient as it should be, but it still leaves a mystery.

    You've got a group (Mexican-Americans) that plays soccer at much higher rates than the rest of the population, but they don't contribute a proportionate amount of players to the national team or MLS. It still doesn't make sense.
     
  8. Stan Collins

    Stan Collins Member+

    Feb 26, 1999
    Silver Spring, MD
    Well, let's posit:

    1. Perhaps the wealthier, suburban soccer players weren't really 'developed' by the 'US system' (ie ODP and residency camps). Perhaps they were developed more by the clubs they played for.

    2. If this is true, then it's worth noting most clubs are built basically on a pay-for-play system.

    3. Supposing the could-have-been Mex-Am talents are located in the lower-income 'barrios', this will often preclude them from participating.

    4. It's worth noting that the lowest age at which the 'US System' attempts to identify youth players with NT potential is age 14. The amount that might have been lost already by this age by not playing against high-level competition and under the watchful eye of well-trained coaching is, according to many experts, high enough to almost never be completely recoverable.

    If this is true, then CUSA could accomplish a lot by fielding a competitive youth team from and age much lower than 14 (say, 8?), not charging for membership, and having it play in the local youth league.
     
  9. kpaulson

    kpaulson New Member

    Jun 16, 2000
    Washington DC
    Stan, I'm with you.

    My point is more geared towards those that are reluctant to see structural problems in the US, especially when they intersect with race and class. I'm not slamming that viewpoint-- I understand the argument that sports are a pure meritocracy. INstead, I'm just pointing out that, if you don't use an explanation that hits upon race/class, you've got a mystery on your hands. And hopefully one, to try to keep Chivas in the thread, that the Chivas train can fix.
     
  10. Stan Collins

    Stan Collins Member+

    Feb 26, 1999
    Silver Spring, MD
    Oh, yeah, I'm just running through the exercise.

    The above theory might also have the virtue of explaining why Bruce Arena would make the comments he has to the effect of "those players aren't out there to be found." If we look for players starting at age 14, these guys may be lost by the time we get around to that--90% of the time, how's ODP going to find you if you aren't playing for a select team, anyway?

    You could say high school play might rescue you, but if that's your first really structured play, that may be too late, especially because high school coaches aren't going to start underclassmen unless they're excellent players, so you could really by talking 16 years old by the time they played organized ball. If soccer needs both individual experimentation and structured play (and I believe it does), then the near complete lack of one of the two at a crucial age might go a long way to explaining why Latinos don't participate at above population-representative levels, which you'd think they would.

    Clint Dempsey also honed his raw skill against local Latinos. But he also found it necessary to drive 180 miles three times a week to play with the Dallas Texans to get the structure.
     
  11. CCTX SoccerFreak

    CCTX SoccerFreak New Member

    Jan 5, 2005
    Corpus Christi,TX
    Kpaulson and Stan are right on the money with this stuff...

    I have coached in South Texas for about 8 yrs now and the players that play from U11/U12 and up are all suburbanites who don't have to bus tables at the Taqueria down the street (Taqueria is an informal Taco House). The latin kids are working busing tables and cutting yards doing whatever they can to help their Household meet ends. Soccer takes a backseat and the potential players that could've been are never developed and play in Sunday Leagues if even that. As they get older they work 7 days a week without gripe repairing roofs/general construction to help their family again meet ends. Soccer isn't everything.....family is and these kids will do whatever it takes to help their family once of age.

    If CDCUSA can bring those kids to a structured teaching system of learning how to play the beautiful game then so be it. I wish more of this would happen in the inner cities because this is an American issue not just a Hispanic issue...this happens everyday and does cross over racial lines and affects everyone in America.

    Soccer in the Streets
    [​IMG]
     
  12. Metrogo

    Metrogo Member

    Apr 6, 1999
    Washington Hghts NY
    MAybe, but MLS hasn't exactly been a huge success marketing to the soccer mom crowd either.
     
  13. CCTX SoccerFreak

    CCTX SoccerFreak New Member

    Jan 5, 2005
    Corpus Christi,TX
    True that....

    Hey just off the wire...Juan Pablo "El Loquito" Garcia is on his way to CDCUSA to help put CDCUSA back on track....

    EUA | Juan Pablo García va Chivas USA

    [​IMG]
     
  14. Ron Keller

    Ron Keller New Member

    Jul 9, 2004
    Shampoo-Banana
    Technically speaking, to "derail", one must have actually been on the tracks at some point.
     

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