Is Roberto Baggio the best player without ESM honors?

Discussion in 'Players & Legends' started by PuckVanHeel, Sep 6, 2017.

  1. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Arsenal
    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    As an Arsenal fan, Ian Wright is a big one, compared to the other EPL strikers that missed out.

    Another Serie A player to consider is Antonio Di Natale.
     
  2. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Arsenal
    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Looking through the ESM selections for the first time. Saw some really interesting choices.

    Just looking at the players I know well. Ashley Cole only has one ESM monthly selection. Both Pires and Ljungberg were selected twice in 01/02, but they went with Ljungberg even though Pires was pretty universally more highly regarded. Lehmann was selected 5 times, including twice with Arsenal, compared with Seaman with just the one, yet I don't know any Arsenal fan who rate Lehmann more highly than Seaman.
     
  3. Perú FC

    Perú FC Member+

    Nov 16, 2007
    Lima, Perú
    From the list I published maybe my best feelings would be for Signori and Hasselbaink in terms of overall relevance about their careers. In terms of specific months I think Hasselbaink could have made the selection in october 2000 and/or may 2001 (playing for Chelsea), but has a bit of inoportunity.
     
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  4. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
  5. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    Highly unlikely for various reasons.

    1. In the late 1980s some statistics that exist from my GS thread can’t substantiate that.

    2. Serie A was a low scoring league for most of the 1980s and 1990s in comparison across the continent. Baggio himself had many inconsistent moments in his career, warming the bench at Inter and AC Milano.

    3. Baggio was mostly the scorer of his teams, that rarely benefited from a go-to-guy like Van Basten, Careca, Serena, Virdis, Crespo or Batistuta.

    My guess is I doubt Baggio had even 75 assists in his career.
     
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  6. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #31 PuckVanHeel, Apr 17, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2020
    My educated estimate is between 160 and 180 assists in his career, including the Serie C and national team.

    He was generally always the set piece taker for his smaller clubs and that always helps to increase the numbers.

    I think you're right about the focus being more on scoring and individualism than was the case with Zola for instance.

    As on display here:


    For my general idea, post 109 and 112 here.

    https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/roberto-baggio-a-great-or-not.251517/page-5#post-37274211

    edit: he was also much more than e.g. Totti focused on the final ball, instead of the unlocking pass before the assist if you get what I mean.
     
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  7. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
    There are some mentions about Baggio having a considerable amount of assists during his Juventus carrer, I don't know if it is true.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roberto_Baggio#1990–1995:_Juventus

    [...]
    In this first season at Juventus, Baggio scored 14 goals and provided 12 assists in Serie A, often playing behind the forwards under Luigi Maifredi
    In his second season, under new manager Giovanni Trapattoni, Baggio finished runner-up to Marco van Basten for the Serie A top scorer title, scoring 18 goals and providing 8 assists
    Baggio was once again runner-up for the Serie A capocannoniere title with 21 goals and 6 assists.
    In the 1993–94 season, Baggio often played as a second striker alongside Gianluca Vialli or Fabrizio Ravanelli, and occasionally the young Alessandro Del Piero;[67][68] Juventus once again finished runners up to Milan in Serie A, and Baggio finished third in the capocannoniere title with 17 goals and 8 assists,
    Although Baggio initially struggled with injuries at the beginning of his first season with A.C. Milan,[98][99] he came back into the starting line-up and was appointed the main penalty taker.[77] He helped Milan win the Serie A title, notably scoring a goal against his former team Fiorentina from a penalty in the title-deciding match.[100] Baggio finished the season with 10 goals in all competitions, in 34 appearances; 7 of his goals were scored in Serie A, in 28 appearances, and he also provided 12 assists in Serie A, making him the top assist provider of the season.[...]

    These numbers can be wrong though. But I could be scared that he had less than 100 assists. He was really a great passer with great vision for what I've seen.
     
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  8. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    It’s not verifiable but maybe wide assists were taken into account.
     
  9. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    I read your views and it is indeed a rather accurate brief summary of him, even if I may disagree with the views of him as the defining player of the 1990s.

    I know what I say may be somewhat controversial, but Roberto Baggio is a case of study that requires further scrutiny.

    I remember back in the days some things about him. Several things stood out. An interview where he said he preferred to withdraw from the spotlight, where he didn’t want or didn’t relish the idea of stardom and the challenges that go with it. In some ways this manifested itself in lackluster or mixed campaigns with high profile teams like Juventus or ended up warming the bench at Inter and AC Milan. The best version of Baggio seemed to have been at the less fancied sides of Fiorentina, Bologna and Brescia, away from the spotlight and pressure of delivering titles.

    In 1989 a famous Argentinian narrator, Andres Cantor, said that the Italian press publicized Baggio as the most promising star. This was nothing new, ‘poster boy‘ Vialli had been the earlier version of propaganda from the Italians. Around that time Baggio was at odds with Azeglio Vecini, wanted to play deeper, but Vecini preferred him up front. This would lead to issues amongst his place with the starters at Italia 90. The Euro ‘92 failure to qualify was another disappointment. The country that claimed to have the best league in the world couldn’t secure a place in Europe’s finest show.

    After World Cup ‘94 an interesting piece was written about Baggio with the opinion of Cesar Luis Menotti. He said Baggio was not great at all, was below the class of a player of Platini’s quality for example. He said a player that operates in an ideal attacking position and is the focal point must touch the ball 50 or more times in a game, but Baggio only would touch and demand the ball 4 times. He said this not literally but as an example of a player with tremendous lagoons that disappeared throughout large stretches.

    The first round of USA ‘94 saw Baggio at his worst, mostly viewed as the biggest disappointment up till that point. His innate talent saved him in the knockout stages, despite being anonymous and laboring throughout most matches. Hist first half vs Bulgaria in the semifinals was his best version until he injured himself. After the final he no longer was the same player for Italy and virtually fell off of the radar. He did rediscover some old form at Bologna and Brescia but by then the Italian league was on its way down, with himself stating that football was easier to excel in 2000 than in the 1980s and 90s (evidently referring to defenders having less leeway than before and that anyone could play in Italy, as opposed to when only 3 top class foreigners were allowed).
     
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  10. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    In the main I agree with your idea, but in brief the reasons why I see him as a principal candidate for that tag:

    1) His peak coincided with the peak of the Serie A. Rather than the 1980s as such, the actual peak of Serie A's dominance was the 1988 to 1998 period.

    2) Not too many creative or attacking players were really good in both halves of the decade (probably because of the many big changes taking place in football). It's a small list of players who had elite seasons or tournaments in both halves of the decade. Batistuta, Maldini etc.

    3) He has memorable league campaigns, memorable World Cups, a high peak at continental level too. He even has a few goal creations against the absolute top teams for Italy, or for club against Milan's backline at their peak. In a brief window between 1992 and 1994 he reached a high peak at all levels.

    4) He was also above average in the 1990 and 1998 World Cups; according to the OPTA podcasts he was one of the most productive/creative player overall of the 1990s World Cups (just behind Bergkamp, who is #1 in goal involvement and direct goal involvement). 7 non-penalty goals and 2 assists is a fine return.

    5) Zidane, Ronaldo and so on (click link) got it going in the 2nd half of the decade. Baggio was still 6 times nominated for the Ballon d'Or.
     
  11. Alessandro10

    Alessandro10 Member

    Dec 6, 2010
    Club:
    Juventus FC
  12. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #37 carlito86, Apr 19, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2020
    Nowhere near
    http://soccer-europe.com/Biographies/Roberto_Baggio.html
    Roberto Baggio during his prime or after was never a highly productive player in terms of open play goals or assists
    I don't mean purple patches(like 4 KO goals in 4 matches during WC94)

    a substantial proportion of his assists came from set pieces and for a player of his distinguished reputation youd be surprised at how relatively few were a result of his creative abilities.




    The 10-20 min compilations on youtube may give a different impression

    I think claims that he was the best of an entire football decade (1990s) are far reaching and exaggerated
    A handful had comparable highs and dozens(plural) had a more sustained impact on winning major silverware

    There is a rare interview of baggio i posted here from 1994 when he was being hailed as one of the preeminent players of his generation
    He said quite candidly that he never viewed himself as a football champion
    A true champion in his own opinion was someone who leads his team to the scudetto

    He never was the protagonist behind a coppa italia
    Serie A championship or European cup
    For milan in 94/95 his contributions were more muted (admittedly injures and mismanagement also played their part)

    There is also another side to this
    Baggio without knee caps and not being a conventional striker(number 9) was still able to finish his career as a top 5 goalscorer in serie A history

    I mention open play goals only because it is often used as a beating stick for players like diego Maradona(even though unlike baggio scoring was never primary function in italy)
     

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