Is MLS becoming the "League of Ties"?

Discussion in 'MLS: General' started by henryo, Mar 28, 2015.

?

How much Ties will there be in MLS 2015?

Poll closed Sep 24, 2015.
  1. <30%

    47.4%
  2. 30-35%

    36.8%
  3. 35-40%

    10.5%
  4. 40-45%

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  5. 45-50%

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  6. >50%

    5.3%
  1. henryo

    henryo Member+

    Jun 26, 2007
    #1 henryo, Mar 28, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2015
    Just happened to chance upon the following articles on USSoccerPlayers.com, during the 3rd week of 2015, which saw the 6 home teams scored just 1 goal combined on 3/21, and 2/3 (66.7%) of the games that day ended as ties:
    Through Week #3 of the season, the % of W-L-T read:
    • Games Played: 26
    • Home Wins: 10 (38.5%)
    • Ties: 10 (38.5%)
    • Road Wins: 6 (23.1%)
    Of course, one week doesn't make a season and it's still too early to tell at this juncture.

    Though it does make me wonder:
    • What % constitute a "League of Ties"? 40, 45, 50%?

    • Will MLS set new records for the Highest Number and Percentage of Ties in 2015 (and beyond), thus becoming the "League of Ties"?
    Currently, both records were set in 2011, with 106 Ties (out of 306 games) and 34.6%.

    Screenshot_2015-03-28-21-03-57-1.jpg
     
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  2. EvanJ

    EvanJ Member+

    Manchester United
    United States
    Mar 30, 2004
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Draw percentages for the top level in the top countries in 2013-2014:
    France: 28.4%
    Portugal: Exactly 25%
    Italy: 23.7%
    Spain: 22.6%
    Germany: 20.9%
    England: 20.5%

    MLS has the clubs more equal than in those leagues.
     
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  3. henryo

    henryo Member+

    Jun 26, 2007
    Ties in MLS 2014 were 27.6%, only slightly lower than French League 1.

    So... MLS is already a League of Ties? ;)
     
  4. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Didn't we do this thread like 2 seasons ago?
     
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  5. henryo

    henryo Member+

    Jun 26, 2007
    Link? ;)
     
  6. INKRO

    INKRO Member+

    Jul 28, 2011
    Man, I remember the scoreless tie panic like 3 seasons ago. That went away, just like this will, the sample size is even smaller here compared to back then.
     
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  7. KCbus

    KCbus Moderator
    Staff Member

    United States
    Nov 26, 2000
    Reynoldsburg, OH
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Sometimes, it's a real struggle as a moderator to decide whether or not to delete a really stupid idea or mock the hell out of it.

    I'll go with B.

    Hahahahahahahahahahahaha...
     
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  8. henryo

    henryo Member+

    Jun 26, 2007
    Was this the thread? ;)

    http://forums.bigsoccer.com/threads/fewer-ties-more-goals.1759412/
     
  9. MLSFan10

    MLSFan10 Member

    Mar 23, 2014
    Meh, its early in the seasons. Teams are having trouble scoring goals but the goals will come.
     
  10. Boloni86

    Boloni86 Member+

    Jun 7, 2000
    Baltimore
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    Gibraltar
    Yes we did … it seems like it's always like this early in the season. Rough pitches, rough weather sometimes and teams still rusty from offseason. Once season progresses the bad teams lose confidence and good teams start to gain confidence which leads to more blowouts ...
     
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  11. Ghost

    Ghost Member+

    Sep 5, 2001
    It's not a hard decision. You should quit imposing your own judgments, because you do a bad job of it.
     
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  12. Ghost

    Ghost Member+

    Sep 5, 2001
    Let me put it this way ... with six teams getting into the playoffs in each conference, what incentive does either team, especially the road team, especially a bad team, or even just a middling team, have for trying to go forward and try to score goals? The best strategy is to pack it in and squeak out enough road ties to stay close, because if you do that, then basically nobody is going to be eliminated until the end.

    Let me put it this way, if Garber announced tomorrow that only three teams from each conference are going to the playoffs, then you would see goalscoring jump in a week.
     
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  13. henryo

    henryo Member+

    Jun 26, 2007
    #13 henryo, Mar 30, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2015
    Week #4 games played over Mar-28-29th:
    • Games Played: 10
    • Home Wins - : 5 (50.0%)
    • Ties ---------- : 3 (30.0%)
    • Road Wins -- : 2 (20.0%)
    Cumulative through Week #4 of the season:
    • Games Played: 36
    • Home Wins - : 15 (41.7%)
    • Ties ---------- : 13 (36.1%)
    • Road Wins -- : 8 (22.2%)
    The Home Teams are President this week, as well as cumulatively... :p
     
  14. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yeah, because clearly what the Rapids are missing is the desire to score goals, not the talent to do so. :rolleyes:
     
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  15. ElJefe

    ElJefe Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 16, 1999
    Colorful Colorado
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That's mostly a faith-based assertion, without any numerical evidence to back it up.

    The league has had 80% (1996-97) of the league make the playoffs, then 67% (1998-2001), then 80% (2002-04), then 67% (2005-06), then 62% (2007), then 57% (2008), then 53% (2009), then 50% (2010), then 56% (2011), then 53% (2012-14), and now 60%.

    According your mostly unfounded assertions, goalscoring should've been lower from 1996 to 2007. Spoiler alert: It wasn't.

    But please, keep spinning your tale.
     
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  16. ElJefe

    ElJefe Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 16, 1999
    Colorful Colorado
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'll tell you where there's correlation to how many 90-minute draws there are, and it's what happens after 90 minutes are up.

    When MLS had the 35-yard shootout after 90 minutes (1996-99), where the winner got one point and the loser got none, the percentage of 90-minute draws were at the lowest. One could make the argument that teams were hell-bent on avoiding a situation in which there were very few incentives to keep the score level.

    When MLS had 10 minutes of golden-goal overtime (2000-03), the percentage of 90-minute draws was higher.

    Since 2004, when MLS got rid over regular-season overtime, the percentage of 90-minute draws has been highest.
     
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  17. aperfectring

    aperfectring Member+

    Jul 13, 2011
    Hillsboro, OR
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    A couple quick numbers:
    Highest season-long draw rate: 2011, 34.6%
    Total years with draw rate >30%: 2011, 2009, 2004
    Draw rate, 2000 - 2003: 19.5%
    Overall draw rate, 2000 - present (including 2015 so far): 26.0%
    Overall draw rate, 2004 - present (including 2015 so far): 27.5%
    Overall draw rate, 2010 - present (including 2015 so far): 27.4%

    A quick statement about general large-number statistics about soccer games:
    A good, simple, back of envelope number to assume for teams of roughly equal quality is as follows:
    50% home win
    25% tie
    25% away win
    That ratio tends to roughly hold across leagues. It obviously varies, but in large numbers, it doesn't vary by more than a few percentage points. MLS tends to fall within that general rule. Although it does trend a little on the high end, it is not hugely so.
     
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  18. Earthshaker

    Earthshaker BigSoccer Supporter

    Sep 12, 2005
    The hills above town
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The Quakes Jean Baptiste Pierazzi did his part to avoid a tie with the Revolution by missing that sitter at the death.;)
     
  19. henryo

    henryo Member+

    Jun 26, 2007
    #19 henryo, Mar 31, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2015
    Yes, the All-Time Stats is pretty much in-line with the 50/25/25% split:
    (note that SOWs/SOLs in 1996-99 seasons were counted as Ties here)

    MLS-Eternal-Stats-20150329.png
     
  20. henryo

    henryo Member+

    Jun 26, 2007
    #20 henryo, Mar 31, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2015
    By the way, have noticed a pattern here, other than '96-98, the % of Ties have generally increased over seasons, until new scheduling / playoffs formats were introduced, and the cycles continued.

    It seemed that teams were more aggressive with new schedule / playoffs formats, but became more settled down the road, until another reset.

    Let's see what's going to happen in 2015...

    (My gut feel? The Ties % should be higher than 2014. ;))

    Season Ties % Remarks
    1996 21.2% First Season, '96-99 SOWs = Ties
    1997 20.6%
    1998 17.2%
    1999 29.7%
    2000 17.7% First Season with 3 Divisions
    (major changes in scheduling /
    playoffs qualifications)
    2001 17.7%
    2002 15.7% First Season after Contraction
    (major changes in scheduling)
    2003 27.3%
    2004 30.7%
    2005 22.9% First Season after Re-Expansion
    (major changes in scheduling)
    2006 29.2%
    2007 25.6% First Season with Odd # of Teams
    (major changes in scheduling /
    playoffs qualifications)
    2008 27.1%
    2009 30.7%
    2010 24.2% First Season of Balanced Schedule
    (major changes in scheduling methods)
    2011 34.6%
    2012 23.8% First Season back to Imbalanced Schedule
    (major changes in scheduling /
    playoffs qualifications)
    2013 25.4%
    2014 27.6%
    2015 ??.?% First Season with 12-team Playoffs
    (minor changes in scheduling /
    playoffs qualifications)
     
  21. henryo

    henryo Member+

    Jun 26, 2007
    Week #5 games played over Apr-4-5th:
    • Games Played: 8
    • Home Wins - : 5 (62.5%)
    • Ties ---------- : 0 (30.0%)
    • Road Wins -- : 3 (37.5%)
    Cumulative through Week #5 of the season:
    • Games Played: 44
    • Home Wins - : 20 (45.5%)
    • Ties ---------- : 13 (29.5%)
    • Road Wins -- : 11 (25.0%)
    For the first time this season, there were no Tied Games over the week. ;)
     
  22. henryo

    henryo Member+

    Jun 26, 2007
    Week #6 began with a Tie between VWFC and CCFC...

    By the way, was looking at MLS and a few other leagues around the world,
    to see how much W-T-L differences were there, for teams level on points.

    Findings so far:
    • MLS:
      At most differ by 2 less wins & 6 more ties, as with the cases of 2014, 2010 & earlier seasons:
      - SKC @ 14W-7T-13L for 49 points
      - POR @ 12W-13T-9L for 49 points as well

    • EPL:
      Differ by up to 3 less wins & 9 more ties, as seen in 1993-94 season:
      - Southampton @ 12W-7T-23L for 43 points
      - Ipswich Town @ 9W-16T-17L for 43 points as well

    • FRL1 (the League of Ties in Euro):
      Differ by up to 4 less wins & 12 more ties, as seen in 2013-14 season!
      - Nice @ 12W-6T-20L for 42 points
      - Guingamp @ 11W-9T-18L for 42 points too
      - Montpellier @ 8W-18T-12L for 42 points as well

    • Are there anything more contrasting than the above leagues?
    This was probably the reason that MLS adjusted the Tie-Breaking Rule in 2012, in the hope of reducing Tied Games. ;)

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  23. henryo

    henryo Member+

    Jun 26, 2007
    Corresponding Records in English Football:
    1997-98 Nationwide League Division Three
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1997–98_in_English_football#Division_Three

    Differ by up to 4 less wins & 12 more ties:
    - Swansea City @ 13W-11T-22L for 50 points
    - Cardiff City @ 9W-23T-14L for 50 points as well

    If anyone can identify any leagues/seasons, where teams level on points differ by more than 5 wins & 15 ties, let me know. ;)

    1997-98-English-Division-3 - Copy.png
     
  24. Stan Collins

    Stan Collins Member+

    Feb 26, 1999
    Silver Spring, MD
    Yes, and I was drawn to this thread precisely because some people who I think should know better have been arguing that. I think it becomes pretty dumb once you submit it to a modicum of inspection.

    Last year, 10/19 teams made the playoffs. This year, 12/20. That's about a 7% difference all told or only a 1 in 13.5 chance of making any difference for your team. Now, split that effect up over 34 games, and the 'meaning factor' of each game is about 0.2% different, almost infinitesimal, and nowhere near enough incentive to change how we look at games.

    Or look at it another way. Sportsclubstats.com keeps track of every team's playoff odds every week assuming all the rest of the results were random (except for home field advantage). Let's look at the teams that got road draws this week and see what it did for their odds:
    Saturday P G W - D - L GD % Change
    Red Bulls T DC United 2-2 8 3 2 - 2 - 0 3 90.2% +1.0
    Real Salt Lake T Sporting KC 0-0 9 2 2 - 3 - 0 2 75.8 +0.4
    Crew T Revolution 0-0 5 2 1 - 2 - 2 0 63.2 +4.2​

    Only one of the three benefited in any significant way from the draw, even though all three were playing intra-conference games. And to put that one, the Crew, in perspective, the Crew gained by virtue of their draw only about what the Rapids by virtue of being idle that day. What that means is these early season results should be magnified by the formula, since we're assuming that the rest of the season is random. For perspective, the Houston Dynamo's result enhanced their playoff odds by 32%.

    Compare to the three home teams that drew:
    DC United T Red Bulls 2-2 10 2 3 - 1 - 1 1 86.9 -1.1
    Sporting KC T Real Salt Lake 0-0 9 1 2 - 3 - 1 0 49.7 -9.9
    Revolution T Crew 0-0 8 1 2 - 2 - 2 -2 56.6 -3.9​

    If we add up the percentages, the road teams gained 5.6/3 or 1.8% on average. The home teams lost 14.9/3 or 5.0% on average. Meaning the draws did a lot more damage to the home team than anything the road team gained, and on net, all the teams that drew hurt their playoff odds 9.3/3 or 3.1% on average. This makes sense in a 3/1/0.

    And we haven't even addressed the fact that seeding matters in the playoffs. Even if we assume (sadly, so far this seems not to be far from true) that the two-leg aggregate with away goals is a perfect coin flip, then the odds of representing your conference in the Cup Final by seed, back when 8 teams made the playoffs would look like this:

    1 -- 25%
    2-- 25%
    3-- 25%
    4-- 25%​

    And remember that the additional teams were added only for the play-in rounds, so the chance that they have comes entirely at the expense of their play-in opponent. When we go to five teams, that gives us:

    1-- 25%
    2-- 25%
    3-- 25%
    4-- 12.5%
    5-- 12.5%​

    and with 6 teams:

    1-- 25%
    2-- 25%
    3-- 12.5%
    4-- 12.5%
    5-- 12.5%
    6-- 12.5%​

    . . . but wait, I said assume the H&H w/AG is a coin-flip. The play-in round isn't played that way. HFA is worth about 0.4-0.5 gpg, or in other words it tends to create about a 70/30 split for the home team when someone has to advance. That creates odds that look more like this:

    1-- 25%
    2-- 25%
    3-- 17.5%
    4-- 17.5%
    5-- 7.5%
    6-- 7.5%​

    So in addition to a tiny likelihood that a drawn game helps you squeak into the playoffs with that one extra seed, there is also a pretty small likelihood that you'll do anything with that 6 seed even if you get it. Remember too, those are not the odds of winning MLS Cup, they are the odds of getting to the Cup Final. The odds of winning the Final then are swayed by the tiny odds that the 6 seed would ever host it. And remember, all these numbers assume no underlying difference in the quality of teams. They all stand only to get worse if we assume that you are what your record says you are.

    So your road draw gives you a little less than a 2% bump in your odds of making the playoffs, which if you get that 6 seed gives you a 7.5% chance of making the Final and we will say charitably a 30% chance of winning that game. So that draw aimed at the 6 seed was worth about 0.04% in terms of your title aspirations. Congratulations, road drawer: you now have 1 more chance in 2,470 to win MLS Cup. And you're telling me that affects how you approach every game in some tangible way, when there are obviously much bigger factors at play?
     
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  25. henryo

    henryo Member+

    Jun 26, 2007

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