I tend to think, which the ratings data supports, that in general he was playing better in the mid 00s than he was in 2007/08 (with the exception of some games like the Euros semi-final vs Russia probably for example), though not to say better or as good as he was in 2008/09. But I am not of the opinion/idea that he was playing amazing during 2007/08 (in theory maybe I would question some votes on IceBlood's Ballon d'Or Revisited thread if they would be based on seasons and include Xavi for 2007/08...but then again some of my own calls could be questioned I'm sure, like giving a point to Redondo for the 2000 edition, because it's arguably not so different given yes he was 'UEFA Club Footballer of the Year' for 99/00 based on playing exceptional CL games, but to be fair as the ratings indicate (albeit Spanish ones are derived from a non-typical ratings system often) consistency wise in La Liga it wasn't the same story and he had other better La Liga seasons surely). Interestingly Xavi Simons (born April 2003) is named after Xavi apparently, presumably since his birth. I do remember some early-mid 2000s games where Xavi was passing the ball very well. An Irish journalist did put Xavi as an honourable mention in effect for a 2003 calendar year team of the year, and then put him in the XI for 2004 and 2005 (but not to say loads of other people would have done the same...and probably I tend to think myself that among the famous all-time players his true peak period seems relatively short, even if pretty continuous during that actual peak, helped by playing for those Barca and Spain teams, but also helping them to be consistently good and cohesive himself of course - I agree a bit with SayWhatIWant on World Cup 2010 though...though not going to the same extent I suppose, just having an idea there might be a question mark on the idea of a brilliant World Cup as especially in the earlier games he wasn't playing so great I think) https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/interesting-best-xi.325564/page-63#post-41488340 Probably with Pirlo, similarly, there would be questions about exactly which periods would be considered 'peak', and how consistent he was in those periods (you know better than me and most I'm sure, but we'd be thinking above all around the mid 00s and then in and around 2012 I suppose)....
I am rewatching his Euro 2008 in full. Full matches not highlights. I did not start in order - Italy match. He seems more positive in his actions so far from what I have seen.
This is maybe worth a thread. Marco Reus and Marco Asensio are named after Van Basten. Neeskens Kebano after Neeskens etc. As opposed to players who had youth idols (Littbarski, Matthaus had Cruijf as teenager andsoforth). People who name him "fake Xavi" (there are many) is a bit disrespectful if you want to see genuinely how well Simons has played the past number of years, also in a PSG shirt really. Now also in a euro semi final surely (highest rated of this round in a few metrics).
Old post from the past: Unfortunately I can't find this for other seasons, or the full season, but saw an interesting table dated 11 October 2002: Opta's best passers Rank Player Team League Passes per 90 minutes 1 Juan Veron United Premiership 82.2 2 Andrea Pirlo Milan Serie A 81.1 3 Xavi Barcelona La Liga 74.3 4 Barry Ferguson Rangers Scottish Premier League 72.7 5 Clarence Seedorf Milan Serie A 71.8 6 Patrick Vieira Arsenal Premiership 69.3 7 Stephen Appiah Brescia Serie A 68.6 8 Omar Milanetto Modena Serie A 68.3 9 Kerimoglou Tugay Blackburn Premiership 65.0 10 Steven Gerrard Liverpool Premiership 63.5 https://groups.google.com/g/alt.sports.soccer.manchester.united/c/o4EnyGTbLgg?pli=1 You can doubt what this actually means but yeah, Xavi was then already often involved and on the ball.
I've decided to do a fairly in-depth post on Pirlo's form in his Milan years. This is the first half. Apologies where links to evidence aren't present, I don't have a lot of time right now and I'm having trouble locating some of the more obscure forum posts and sources. Note: Assist number are from transfermarket and therefore wide assists, but I don't presently have Opta assists for Pirlo in these years. ANDREA PIRLO'S FORM 2001 - 2011 Pt. 1 2001/02: 29 games (13 starts), 2 goals, 5 assists Serie A – 18 games (7 starts), 2 goals, 3 assists In his first season at Milan, Pirlo did not begin a starting member of the squad. Rather, he was mostly a substitute. However, he took his chance after an injury to Rui Costa late in the season. On matchday 29 against Parma, Pirlo subbed in for the second half, scoring a freekick and assisting another. With this performance, Pirlo earned heavier minutes and eventually three straight starts in the last 3 matchdays as Milan were desperately climbing to UCL qualification. Pirlo scored a late winner against Chievo on matchday 33 to launch Milan from 6th to 4th, and further assisted another against Lecce in the final round to secure qualification. In the absence of Costa, Pirlo played quite exceptional in a more traditional trequartista role. He was named as one the four most important players in the final months of the season for securing UCL qualification along with Maldini, Shevchenko, and Inzaghi in a season review thread on the ac milan forums website (I’ve lost this link for now). Of all Milan players this season with 17 appearances or more, his 6.25 rating was the highest given out by Gazzetta dello Sport (though this is not to say he was Milan’s best player of the season) https://www.xtratime.org/threads/la...35604&nested_view=1&sortby=oldest#post-935604. A strong showing in the final stretch of the season earned Pirlo respect and adoration in Milano. UEFA Cup - 9 games (4 starts), 1 assist Highlights: freekick and assist vs Parma, late winner vs Chievo to achieve 4th place, assist vs. Lecce to cement 4th place on final matchday 2002/03: 42 games (33 starts), 9 goals, 7 assists Serie A – 27 games (21 starts), 9 goals, 7 assists UCL – 12 games (11 starts) In his second season, Pirlo’s upward trajectory made life hard for Carlo Ancelotti as a young upcomer was pushing the likes of Rui Costa and Rivaldo for the spot in the first Xl, which he famously solved by deploying Pirlo in the regista position (for the first time in preseason tournament Trofeo Berlusconi). Pirlo quickly became the team’s tactical focal point offensively and one of the most important players in the team. Pirlo impressively became the team's PK taker as the youngest of the major players in the squad, showing maturity and composure beyond his years (and already scoring Panenka against the likes of Buffon). This is Pirlo’s highest scoring season ever, though only 1 goal came form open play. Already in January of 2003, a poster on Xtratime forums has Pirlo included in his top 50 players in Europe for the season https://www.xtratime.org/threads/eu...8630&nested_view=1&sortby=oldest#post-1288630. In April, Pirlo suffered a thigh injury which kept him out of the UCL quarterfinal tie against Ajax and the first semi-final leg against Inter, as well as four Serie A matches. However, he recovered for the second leg of the semifinal and final. I’ve seen it in multiple places now, including Wikipedia, which claims Pirlo led Serie A in four categories: passes played (2589), ball possession (123 hours played and 39 minutes), successful balls (661), and successful passes (2093) – though I am still to find the original source. Some Milan fans have considered this his best season, though generally I think consensus in 2003/04. Highlights: Freekick against Atalanta, panenka against Buffon 2003/04: 44 games (43 starts), 8 goals, 8 assists Serie A – 33 games (31 starts), 6 goals, 7 assists UCL – 9 games (9 starts), 1 goal This is perhaps Pirlo’s greatest season for Milan – stretches of this season are certainly a candidate for prime-level Pirlo play. Pirlo cemented his regista role this season, improving in his understanding of how to play the position. Milan fans in forums remarked on his improved defensive play this season, as well as his consistently great form. This season, Pirlo scored crucial goals, including magnificent long-range strikes against Sampdoria and Chievo, in the title charge. The first rumblings of Pirlo being perhaps the world’s best center midfielder emerged among Milan fan forums in this season, with comparisons to Gianni Rivera circulating. Pirlo was now being talked about as Italy’s newest star, being touted above Totti and Del Piero by some Italy fans. It is a shame Milan fell apart against Deportivo this season in the UCL, as this was probably the apex of Ancelotti’s Milan. As for the Scudetto success, Pirlo, in my estimation, but supported by other knowledgeable fans, was among the top three most important players, beside Kaka and Shevchenko. He once again completes the most passes in all of Serie A. Mentions to Nesta and Maldini as well. Below, I’ve attached an appraisal from a fan-written seasonal review done in May 2004. “PIRLO: The brain, the architect, the regulator, the new Metronomo of Milan’s team is him. This season was for him the chance to confirm his previous splendid season and this year, he has not only lived up to that expectation, but he also simply been phenomenal all year long. Every ball, every action starts from his feet with his mind-blowing and “millimitric” accurate passes. Couple that with some truly crucial goals and you obtain an indispensable, rather a vital piece of the Milan team. Also I’d like to mention the fact that defensively, he has improved a lot and he now doesn’t hesitate anymore to give the defence a hand when needed by tracking down and tackling the opponents. As an example, I was simply amazed seeing him winning the ball from Totti on Sunday with a tackle that would have made Maldini or Nesta proud. If only Trap can have the courage to give the keys of Italia’s game plan to him in the same way that Carletto is doing in Milan, he can truly guide Italia to a successful Euro. A lot of people have been comparing him to the Golden Boy Rivera. Some people laughed at this comparison, however, in light of his extraordinary season, it is not such a farfetched thing to say. He may not have the killer instinct in scoring loads of goals nor the leadership of Rivera, but he has all the rest of his illustrious predecessor. To me, he is the most important player of the team tactically speaking. FORZA ANDREA!!!!:star: Note: 9” https://www.xtratime.org/threads/se...5024&nested_view=1&sortby=oldest#post-2005024 Highlights of season: Beautiful assist vs. Boca Jr.'s Intercontinental Cup, screamer vs. Chievo, screamer vs. Sampdoria, freekick vs. Deportivo, beautiful assist vs. Juve Euro 2004: 2 games (2 starts) Despite Pirlo’s form and a plenitude of calls for Pirlo to start for Italy, Trapattoni did not build the midfield around the regista. After a disastrous first game against Denmark, Trapattoni gave in to select Pirlo for the starting Xl. Though Pirlo’s inclusion was a factor in improved performances for Italy, the Azzurri crashed out in the group stage. His Sofascore ratings are solid here, with 7.7 vs Sweden (second highest in match) and 7.6 vs Bulgaria (third highest in match) but nothing really of note from the tournament. Olympics 2004: 6 games (6 starts), 1 assist Captained Italy to a Bronze medal, went out to Argentina in semis. Don’t think his form was anything spectacular here, but I haven’t really watched the games. 2004/2005: 43 games (38 starts), 5 goals, 10 assists Serie A – 30 games (26 starts), 4 goals, 6 assists UCL – 12 games (12 starts), 1 goal, 4 assists Another vintage Pirlo season for Milan, though one not as blight-free as the previous season. This was the first 38 game season in Serie A, probably to Milan’s disadvantage as an aging squad, and certainly to Pirlo who played 56 games in 2003/04 without an inter-season break. After his first season as an every-game-starter for a top club, playing in many UEFA competitions in addition to two summer international tournaments, there was a feeling of fatigue in patches of this season from Pirlo, along with a niggling injury to his right knee first picked up against on international duty in February. He made it back in time for the R16 UCL tie with Manchester United but reaggravated the injury in the UCL derby against Inter (in which he assisted twice in one game) in April, which forced him to miss a few games in the crucial final stretch of the season in Serie A when Milan were level in points with Juve until their top-table clash on matchday 35. Half-fit Pirlo played one half in the loss vs Juventus and in the extremely tough semifinal tie with PSV. The infamous “Pirlo dilemma”, which posits that Pirlo was so indispensable to Milan’s style of football and so unique that he couldn’t be rested due to no player being able to replace him, first emerged this season. The Pirlo dilemma would emerge intermittently nearly every year until Allegri’s reign in 2010/11, with articles being written dedicated to the problem. One thing to note is that Pirlo performed below his potential, particularly in the second leg, against Barcelona with an in-form Xavi. I re-watched both legs pretty recently, and Pirlo conjured a couple moments of brilliance, but Barcelona dominated both matches and Xavi looked better in the tie. Part of this I think is do with the styles of the teams, as Barca looked to dominate possession and Milan looked to hit on the counter in typical Italian style. Part of the reason the perception of this season is not as good is comparisons Pirlo’s great season the prior year, and Milan’s eventual capitulation in Istanbul. I’m sure if Milan won the UCL, this season would be perceived more positively. Pirlo was still very much playing at a high level and was still exceedingly important to Milan. His play in the UCL Final was, especially in the first half, was top notch by my estimation. Pirlo’s media ratings are decent enough and he was still being selected for award shortlists like Fifpro World Xl. He was the Serie A player with the third most passes completed. For Italy, he quickly established himself as the midfield lynchpin and always performed well. He scored a pair of freekicks in one game against Scotland in WC qualifiers. This is still prime Pirlo, only a less fit and consistent one than in 2003/04. Perhaps it doesn’t mean too much, but in a poll on XtraTime, Pirlo still got second most votes for Milan’s best player of the season behind Shevchenko. This season seems to be a bit of a dip year for the whole core of the squad, including Shevchenko, Kaka, Maldini, Nesta, and maybe Seedorf (less sure). Gattuso and Cafu received praise however. Highlights of season: stunning goal vs Cagliari, goal and assist vs. Atalanta, Barca assist for Shevchenko, two assists in UCL QF derby win, assist In UCL final, brace of freekicks vs Scotland in WCQs 2005/2006: 49 games (43 starts), 5 goals, 7 assists Serie A – 33 games (31 starts), 4 goals, 6 assists UCL – 12 games (12 starts), 1 goals, 1 assist A contradictory season with a stellar first half and a decidedly difficult second half. Pirlo’s form to start the season was simply imperious, and up there with his best stretches of football in his career. He improved upon his already great freekick ability by adding a new technique. Between Oct. 29 and Dec. 18, Pirlo scored five freekicks, all of them knuckleballs or “no-spin”, from considerable distance. Pirlo finished the first half of the Serie A season with 4 goals and 5 assists, only to get only 1 additional assist in the second half of the season. In the new year, his form began to dip. Milan began to fade in Serie A and were knocked out of the UCL by Barcelona in the semifinals. It can be said that Pirlo again underperformed, this time against a Xavi-less Barca side. This tie was the sign that perhaps Milan was a force on the decline. Still, Pirlo’s media ratings are better than his previous season, perhaps due to very high ratings in the first half. To be sure, I’d have to find a way to check each match rating individually. And he returned to the top of the passes completed chart for Serie A. As for his other UCL knockout performances, I don’t feel confident I can speak accurately of them right now without revisiting them. The perception of his form dipping so drastically is likely due in part to the contrast to his spectacular form in the first half of the season. Pirlo’s form was a worry going into the World Cup, with FourFourTwo even describing it as “torrid form” in their special post-World Cup edition, though his first Xl spot under Lippi was never in question. From 2004 onwards, Pirlo was seen by many fans as being the Azzurri’s most important player (at least offensively). Highlights: freekicks against Schalke, Juventus, Udinese, Lecce, Messina World Cup 2006: 7 games (7 starts), 1 goal, 3 assists I’ve done previous posts on this tournament, so I will leave it at, “he was really damn good”.
Pirlo form chart pt. 1 Don't take it as gospel, it was thrown together rather quickly. Thinking of the scores as: 60 - average 70 - above average 80 - approaching world class form 85 - world class form 90 - best-in-position kind form 95 - historically great form 100 - GOAT level play. This is all very rough, but I'm just trying to paint a picture. As for full seasons, to rank them: 1. 2003/04 2. 2002/03 3. 2005/06 (in we include the WC, this becomes #2) 4. 2004/05 5. 2001/02 2003/04 is the only one I'm 100% sure about to honest, but that's how I see it presently.
The 'problem' with Pirlo is really, and I made similar observations before, that his sofascore ratings are not better than the other Milan midfielders with some creativity. This is genuinely different for Xavi and Modric their golden spells. Pirlo for Milan was in many club seasons not markedly better as Rui Costa, Kaka, Seedorf. Maybe for the 2003-04 league season you can say that (but not the big games!) yet it is still imho not like Modric or Xavi in their best spells where the indexes also clearly stand out for them (compared to team-mates). Pirlo doesn't look there as his 2006 or 2012 tournament self.
This is Pirlo his best rated CL match of the 00s (and Milan) in Sofascore Pirlo 8.9 vs Benfica (18/09/07) Then there are also a hatful around 7.5. The next best after the 8.9 are 8.4, 7.9 (3 november 2010), 7.9, 7.8, 7.7, 7.6, 7.6, 7.5, 7.5, 7.4, 7.4, 7.2, 7.2, 7.2, 7.1, 7.1, 7.0 etc. It is more regular than (old) Zidane, certainly, but there are still a number of low grades, many more than the high grades above 7.8. You'll be hard pressed to objectively think Pirlo was better as the other midfielders and actually, those had higher CL peaks than him as well, per Sofascore at least (in particular Seedorf and Kaka - the latter btw not as awesome as I had expected). That's even true when you add Pirlo his Juventus period. I always felt and thought similar to that and imho, this backs that up. Modric and Xavi in their (brief) golden period really don't show up like this.
I didn't know had all those older UCL ratings. Do they do all games and how far back? "Not in the big games". Why do you say that? Pirlo has an impressive record against Juve and Inter in that time period. And likewise in his early early career and later career he has good goal and assist records the better teams. If you are thinking UCL specifically, I can see more where you are coming from. I will maybe do a post on Pirlo's UCL career later. I don't think its as impressive as Xavi or Modric's, but also Pirlo wasn't in a genuine UCL contender team nearly as long as they were.
I don't say he had no record in big games, I said 2003-04 is well possibly the one campaign where he was markedly better as the other Milan midfielders. Just not the big games really, in that season. Even in this 'project' from a Pirlo fanboy you see Kaka, Seedorf popping up more often for those bigger matches. For example vs Inter, Juventus. So it is not that Pirlo didn't show up in bigger matches. He did. But in the one season he was the best midfielder of his Milan team, he wasn't more of a big game player as Rui Costa and the like. I think Modric and Xavi in their golden spells were the best in their midfield. Modric stands above Xavi for me, maybe Xavi and Pirlo are of the same rank (previously I thought Xavi is well ahead of Pirlo, but I am less sure now really).
Xavi has never had a 10 on Sofascore in the Champions League. Kroos has 2. Xavi at his peak was also outperformed by players like Iniesta, Messi, Villa, among others
SofaScore had made all scores available since UCL 03/04 but now they appear to only be available from 05/06 onwards. You can't see it directly from the player's profile. You have to go to the UCL page and select the desired season
That link didn't yield anything for me for some reason, so I can't see what is says. My instincts tell me that Pirlo was pretty regularly impressive in matches against the other big teams and in crunch time. His performance against Barca in the semis of 2006 was poor for sure, but I already spelled that out. Pirlo's scoring and assist rate against Juve and Inter is not far from Xavi's against Madrid I think, but I'll report back with those numbers. However, if Seedorf or Kaka pop up more, its not a surprise as they generally have higher goal and assist tallies being further forward. Anyhow, just casually perusing the Sofascore UCL ratings, 1) they only go back to 05/06, so they miss three seaons of Pirlo's actual prime, and 2) Kroos outperforms Modric in every title winning season. If I recall, its the same with WhoScored for Kroos and Modric. Pirlo for the money looks to be the best midfielder in quite a few of his matches on SofaScore, I reckon not dissimilar from Modric's record but I can't say for sure. Haven't looked at Xavi yet. Regarding Pirlo's lack of 8+ ratings on SofaScore for Milan in UCL, I think the reasons are pretty obvious: 1) 2005/06 - 2010/11 lacks a lot of his best years and probably best matches, and 2) AC Milan was no longer a dominant team in this period, and not at all comparable to the Real or Barca teams of Modric or Xavi who were regularly wracking up the goals. Hopefully SofaScore come out with the data sometime soon and we can have access to Pirlo's pomp in the competition as well. I won't be surprised if it doesn't put Pirlo on the same level as Xavi or Modric in the competition, because Pirlo was injured or playing injured in both 2003 and 2005, and in 2004 they went out early, but we're missing some of his best matches. Anyhow, I can agree with the idea that Pirlo lacks some big game performances in the UCL knockouts compared to the other two, but not that he was less often showing up in big games in general. The big knockout performances against other top teams for him would be against Inter in 2003, United and Inter in 2005, and against Bayern, United, and Liverpool in 2007. Also against Deportivo in 2004 (which they blew) and Monaco 2015 (the return leg). Looking at his Juventus 2012/23 season, Pirlo has 3 MOTM in the group stage (9.0, 8.7, 8.7), was the best rated midfielder on his team in 4/6 games (though admittedly in neither leg vs Chelsea, so perhaps this is your criticism regarding big teams?). In the knockouts, he was best rated midfielder against Bayern in return leg. So 1/4.
https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/i...the-21st-century.2124565/page-5#post-41219590 I'm referring to my post comparing Pirlo 2006, Xavi 2010, Kroos 2014, and Modric 2018. I could do a write-up on the World Cup performances as I've watched them numerous times.
You can go to the players pages and scroll back the games. For many the CL ratings start in 2004 (exactly as OPTA says on twitter). For some rare instances involving English teams already in 2003 (like Keane, Deco vs Man United when he played for Porto). Some things really shouldn't be very surprising. Like Shevchenko his peak. By the start of the 2010s only Raul had more CL goals than RvN (over way more games; RvN played his first CL games for a top team when he was 25 years old). The players with the most CL finals played consisted of Maldini, VdS, Seedorf, Davids (also a few others with 4 CL finals but unlike Davids they were not all starters; Kroos was not a starter either in 2013 by the way - he directly competed with Robben for a place). But Champions Magazine in 2011 and professors like Tank, Cox, @comme and friends as always just treat us as merely fillers and afterthoughts for the real greats. This provides then the necessary public/political backing to do what they think they should do.
such a cool, neat idea, the graph.. this would be so useful for all players. To have a database of sort
Certainly better and more important/valuable than Isco in my mind. Unquestionably an instrumental player in the 2003 Uefa Cup win, 2004 CL win and also 2006 CL win. I believe he was Barcelona their best and most important midfielder. Ahead of Xavi, yes. For the 2005 league title. Rijkaard and Ten Cate himself said he was the first to be listed, not Ronaldinho. Skilled, could make goals, balanced in approach, not lazy. Put a foot in. His high number of fouls (and yellow cards), for his position on the field, bring the ratings down but he is quite consistent. Had also a great half year spell at Chelsea. He goes ahead of Gerrard, Scholes, Guti and so on in my mind. Just for his five years peak (2002-2007).
Be careful with making conclusions based on sofascore. I am sure you would be the first one to agree that sofacore can be sometimes off for some Dutch performances. Imo, sometimes it can be off for 1,0/1,5 rating points like in case of Yamal vs France for example... perhaps sofascore algorithm is biased against Pirlo. These sort of things have to be considered.
I think the Yamal rating is fine. Can be a half point or full point higher for the great goal, maybe. Definitely not a 9/10 performance. Yes, it is not perfect but if you look at what kicker and Gazzetta does for the Milan finals and semi-finals, then even they don't have Pirlo ahead of the other midfielders. Including Rui Costa and sometimes Gattusso. I genuinely think that is correct.
You don't have to agree with 9/10 performance for Yamal. I myself, do not claim that.. but it is conceivable that sofascore in extreme cases misjudges performance by 1,5 rating points. That is my point.