Is Luka Modric the greatest midfielder of the 21st century?

Honestly for me Kroos is a downgraded version of Pirlo.

They were both incredible passers, Kroos might have been slightly more precise, but Pirlo was simply more creative and more ambidextrous. His passing range with both his left and right foot was properly GOAT tier.

Pirlo was more technically gifted than Kroos on the ball, had greater composure under pressure, was a better dribbler and a better ball carrier.

Otherwise they were very similar in many respects, both played a very similar role and both had the same weakness too (defensively and athleticism).

Pirlo was more individualistic too, was man of the match in numerous huge international games like Germany 2006, France 2006, France 2008, England 2012… Kroos wasn’t as decisive as Pirlo.

 

I've been revisiting Kroos lately and reevaluating. I've been trying not to get swept up on the media praise which has accompanied his retirement. I have to say I think I slightly underrated him before (I had him clearly a tier below Xavi Modric Pirlo) but now I appreciate his greatness more. However, I still have him below all of those players.

Kroos is supremely technically accomplished and tactically sound, maintaining a high level for many years. For the pivot-orchestrator tactical archetype, Kroos had been the best or near the best at it for nearly a decade. He is a player who fulfills what the manager asks to a virtual perfection. He also has it in his locker to produce a moment of technical quality which can help to decide games, such as a set piece or his typical side foot finish from the top of the box.

What I will say about Pirlo and Modric is that they go beyond this. They transcend a tactical role and a manager's expectations. They produce things on the pitch that the manager could never have anticipated, while still fulfilling their tactical roles. They produce unique moments of genius which effect the outcome of a match on a regular basis relative to other top footballers. Kroos, no matter how much I investigate, I don't think has this quality (which isn't a knock, because it's an extremely rare quality). And I think Pirlo and Modric raise the level of their teammates and influence the performance of their team in a way that Kroos just doesn't quite reach. If you removed Pirlo for Italy, it was no longer the Italy we expected. If you removed Modric from Croatia, it was no longer Croatia. think if you removed Kroos from Germany, they would still be Germany, just minus an experienced and world class midfielder. I hope some of those thoughts make sense.

 

Pirlo is also an order of magnitude more dangerous from freekicks and set-pieces, even if Kroos is top at them (in this generation, which seems to sorely lack dead ball specialists).

 

We will see this season how Real Madrid will play without Kroos compared to how they played with him. This was already seen in some games last season where Kroos didn't start, he came on and completely changed the face of the game. Real Madrid don't have another player with Kroos's characteristic of being the safe ball when you need to have possession and control of the game.Modrić doesn't have that characteristic. He can try to do it but he certainly won't do it as well as Kroos.

 

I don't get to watch many La Liga games these days so if you kept this thread updated on how Real's midfield copes without Kroos that would be awesome!

 

Without Kroos I believe Real Madrid will become a more direct and transitional team than a controlling one based on the characteristics of the midfielders we have now. Most being box to box (Valverde, Bellingham, Camavinga and Tchouameni). It will look more like Liverpool than like Man City

 

Do you have this diagram in about his Juventus career?

 

I think Pirlo was a great defender.

 

Its interesting that you say this, because Pirlo has gotten slagged often for being a defensive liability. In his later years year (post-2013) he certainly became a liability (though one calculated by his managers to be outweighed by offensive contributions) at the top level as his physical qualities vanished. In his prime though, thinking about the 2006 WC and his Milan days, Pirlo was very capable defensively. If anyone considered him weak defensively, it's because the 2000s was an era of hard tackling midfield generals playing in front of the defense, so Pirlo was not your Patrick Vieira type. But really, for a trequartista/playmaker, Pirlo had the intelligence to learn how to defend effectively in the pivot role very quickly and at a young age.

"There is always praise for his technique but his character and personality are undervalued. He is one of the few players that you need to say little or nothing to, he understands everything by himself.” - Carlo Ancelotti on Andrea Pirlo

How many other trequartisti of that era could have properly shielded the defensive line while maintaining creative responsibilities? Next to typical defensive midfielders, Pirlo may look weaker defensively, but compared to other playmakers he is strong defensively.

 

I was working on one. I will aim to finish it soon and post it I also documented all of Pirlo's Opta assists for AC Milan with a description of the play. I may try to add videos too and do it for his whole career. We will see because I don't have tons of free time.

 

Oh, okay

 

One of the very very best central midfielders of my lifetime, perhaps the best. A huge shame that his move to Real Madrid in the late 2000s never materialized, he might have earned the respect of younger fans today who rate every Barca and Madrid midfielder above him.

He’s the outright best passer from central midfield that I have ever seen. Insanely ambidextrous, insanely versatile, unbelievable vision, incredible decision making and generational weight on his passes.

His dribbling from deep spaces, technical ability, and ball control were exemplary. His defensive work ethic was underrated.

Everyone knew that he was special but very few people understood truly how special.

 

Cool stuff! Can you explain what the second and third graphics are saying? Is the second one counting assists over a specific time period? And what does "m" and "last" mean?

 

Thanks.

I'm not actually sure what exactly they mean with the lobbed statistic but it's cool to see.

Just wanted to say too that David Pizarro was such a great player who is seemingly forgotten. One of the best midfield orchestrators in Serie A those days.

Pirlo though as the tweet indicates (is this your Twitter account?) has genuinely world class seasons for title winning teams 10 years apart (02/03 and 12/13, one could even argue 13/14). He has a three season lull (08/09 to 10/11) where he was unable to perform at his best but that is great longevity.

 

Did you watch the game today? Particularly in the first half Kroos were missing. You can see the lack of composure, and control in the midfield, ball rotation and possession recycling were poor. Okay it's just the first game of the season, the players just came back so let's see what will happen on the next games

 

One key point in the Xavi v Pirlo comparison,

In the two UCLs that Xavi won as a starter (2008/09 and 2010/11), Barcelona scored on average 100 goals in the league.

In the two UCLs that Pirlo won as a starter (2002/03 and 2006/07), Milan scored on average 56 goals on the league.

And I doubt that this gargantuan difference had much to do with Xavi vs Pirlo’s individual qualities.

 

In 08/09 he was more involved in direct chance creation than in 10/11 for sure and provided more assists than Pirlo ever provided in any season of his career. But of course he wasn't the only factor. Barcelona had Messi who is a goat tier goalscorer (although Pirlo had Shevchenko) in addition to the difference in the average goals of the two leagues, especially comparing the 00s with the 10s. Either way I believe Xavi's GC% was higher in at least 08/09 than either of Pirlo's two seasons.

 

Xavi 2008/09 La Liga
6 goals
23 assists
Barca total 105 goals
27.62% goal involvement

Pirlo 2002/03 Serie A
9 goals
7 assists
Milan total 55 goals
29.09% goal involvement

Xavi 2010/11 La Liga
3 goals
7 assists
Barca total 95 goals
10.52% goal involvement

Pirlo 2006/07 Serie A
2 goals
8 assists
Milan total 57 goals
17.54% goal involvement

How much did Xavo benefit from playing with Messi? And what kind of numbers would Pirlo have achieved with Messi? We don’t know, but what I do know is that Pirlo was easily as good as Xavi.

 

Ove shated this vidoe few times already but for those who havent seen it:



Ancelotti's dream midfield 4 is:

Kaka
Lampard - Modrić
Pirlo

I do find it odd that people are choosing between Pirlo and Modrić in these debates since there a quite different midfielders and would gel perfectly well together.

 

I am not so sure about that. A lot of transition from Real has come directly from Kroos picking up these passes every time.

Funnily, it seems like Ancelotti is trying some new things out:

 

I think this is quite unfair comaprison for Xavi. It is more difficult for Xavi to be involved in his team's goals when playing along side such maestro(s). Pirlo wouldnt magically contribute 35% to his team's goals if he played along side Messi, because Messi would not need that pass from Pirlo and would score and assist bunch indenpendent of Pirlo's involvment effectively lowering his percantage of involvment.

But comparison is silly from the beginning because Xavi played a different role to Pirlo and in a different playing style, being involved much more in advanced areas.

This comparison doesnt quite make sense to me.

 

Yeah, i think both teams were quite rusty. Not much to be concluded from this game, especially because Atalanta is such an unnusual team with odd playing style.

 

Being involved in 28% of 100~ goals(Xavi in 2008/09) is markedly more impressive then being involved in 29% of 50~ goals(Pirlo in 2002/03)

And it is not like Pirlo never played for a team who scored close enough to 100 league goals

Juventus scored 80 league goals in 2013/14(winning 100 points too the all time Serie A record)

Pirlo 2013/14 contributed with a relatively unimpressive 4 goals+7 assists(7 assists being the exact same amount of assists he produced in 2002/03 despite his team in 2013/14 scoring almost 30 more goals)


Another thing to mention is that literally all of pirlos 4 league goals in 2013/14 were from direct FKs

Pirlo was not producing goals from open play in Serie A 13/14 at all and his team still scored at a rate that literally none of pirlos previous teams ever scored at.