SofaScore Average UCL Ratings 05/06 to 14/15 (because you can already see average ratings for years after 14/15). *WhoScored ratings included in bracket for alternative rating where possible Pirlo 03/04 – only 4 rated games of 9 played (not all UCL games rated by SofaScore this season) - 7.60 04/05 – 12 games - 7.51 05/06 - 12 games - 7.08 06/07 - 11 games - 7.23 07/08 - 8 games - 7.61 09/10 - 8 games - 7.25 - (6.93) 10/11 - 5 games - 7.26 - (6.91) 12/13 - 10 games - 7.58 - (7.51) 13/14 - 5 games - 7.64 - (7.14) 14/15 - 10 games - 7.15 - (6.86) Xavi 04/05 – 7 games – 7.74 05/06 - 4 games - 7.35 06/07 - 7 games - 6.97 07/08 - 12 games - 7.78 08/09 - 12 games - 7.98 09/10 - 11 games - 8.02 - (7.90) 10/11 - 12 games - 7.70 - (7.44) 11/12 - 9 games - 7.70 - (7.28) 12/13 - 10 games - 7.84 - (7.19) 13/14 - 10 games - 7.45 - (7.05) 14/15 - 9 games - 6.80 - (6.48) Modric 10/11 – 8 games - 6.89 12/13 – 11 games - 7.14 13/14 – 11 games - 7.71 14/15 – 6 games - 7.33 Kroos 11/12 – 12 games - 7.82 - (7.90) 12/13 – 10 games – 7.44 - (7.37) 13/14 – 12 games – 7.84 - (7.45) 14/15 – 12 games – 7.49 - (7.33)
I made a couple mistakes above. Supposed to be *03/04 to 14/15, and Modric's WhoScored ratings were lost by mistake.
Barca won 100 points in 2013 season. Had hiccups in ucl but generally they were dominant... although they played slightly different, which can be seen in the way they deployed Messi.
Andrea Pirlo's grades are very high considering Italy's unremarkable results in his "just" 22 games in Euros and World Cups. A comparison with Xavi, whose average is just slightly higher: Xavi : 19 4 3 44-17 (78,2%) Pirlo : 10 7 5 28-21 (56,1%) Average ratings among the players I've analyzed grades for: 6,83 Maradona 6,77 Messi 6,73 Iniesta 6,70 Xavi 6,66 Arnesen 6,61 Ronaldo 6,58 Platini 6,57 Brolin, Pirlo 6,52 Elkjaer 6,41 Modrić 6,35 M. Laudrup 6,30 Kroos 6,28 van Basten 6,25 Cristiano Ronaldo 6,20 H. Larsson, T. Müller 6,16 Ibrahimovic 6,09 Raúl 6,06 Kane Andrea Pirlo's ratings in World Cups and Euros 2004-14 Euro 2004 Sweden 1-1 : 6,30 Bulgaria 2-1 : 5,90 average : 6,10 2006 World Cup Ghana 2-0 : 7,50 [1] USA 1-1 : 6,80 Czech Republic 2-0 : 6,50 Australia 1-0 : 6,00 Ukraine 2-0 : 6,20 Germany 2-0 : 7,30 France 1-1 pen : 6,90 average : 6,74 Euro 2008 Netherlands 0-3 : 5,40 Romania 1-1 : 5,90 France 2-0 : 7,50 [1] average : 6,27 2010 World Cup Slovakia 2-3 : 6,20 average : 6,20 Euro 2012 Spain 1-1 : 7,20 Croatia 1-1 : 7,10 [1] Ireland 2-0 : 6,00 England 0-0 pen : 7,20 Germany 2-1 : 7,70 Spain 0-4 : 5,80 average : 6,83 2014 World Cup England 2-1 : 7,20 Costa Rica 0-1 : 6,00 Uruguay 0-1 : 6,00 average : 6,40 Overall average : 6,57
Might be more interesting to derive normalized data and standard deviations. Ie. Standard deviations relative to teammates. Normalizing data based on touches or at least plotting it
About Pirlo being a "demigod" and therefore getting better ratings by Gazzetta, that may be more of a defensible position in his Juventus days when he is already considered a legend, but Pirlo did not have the status of Maldini or Buffon when he was in his early 20s. This is also contradicted by how you show through DBS that the other Italian newspapers were giving lower ratings. You can't claim Pirlo is only rated so high in 02/03 by an Italian newspaper because he's an Italian demigod and then show that the aggregate of many Italian newspapers actually had him below a Dutchman for the same season. Side note: On DBS: does anyone know how the DBS index actually works, and exactly how they weight the media ratings to come up with their own rating? Anyways, thank you for showing the DBS ratings as it gives a more complete picture. Still, I'm not convinced that Pirlo was much different than Xavi or Modric as the standout midfielder in the team. For example, here is Xavi and Iniesta DBS ratings. Xavi 06/07 – 5.95 07/08 – 6.10 08/09 – 6.17 09/10 – 6.39 10/11 – 6.48 11/12 – 6.21 Iniesta 06/07 – 6.33 07/08 – 6.33 08/09 – 6.67 09/10 – 6.00 10/11 – 6.74 11/12 – 6.48 Iniesta is comfortably rated better in every season but 09/10. Hardly "it was not a question" who was best midfielder in the team, especially if you use DBS ratings for evidence like you did for Seedorf vs Pirlo. I hope you think punching down on a Dutch player here, as I'm one quarter Dutch and a big Seedorf fan, but his UCL Sofascore ratings are less impressive for Milan than Pirlo's. Seedorf 7.73 - 03/04 (only 4 matches rated) 7.08 - 04/05 7.12 - 05/06 7.13 - 06/07 7.01 - 07/08 (9.3 outlier vs Shaktar, all 6 other ratings below 7.0) 6.88 - 09/10 6.73 - 10/11 Pirlo 03/04 – only 4 rated games of 9 played (not all UCL games rated by SofaScore this season) - 7.60 04/05 – 12 games - 7.51 05/06 - 12 games - 7.08 06/07 - 11 games - 7.23 07/08 - 8 games - 7.61 09/10 - 8 games - 7.25 - (6.93) 10/11 - 5 games - 7.26 The only season (not counting incomplete (03/04) he is rated higher is 05/06 and its only by 0.04. In the 04/05 Finals run, Pirlo is comfortably higher (0.43). Even in 06/07, where I have called Seedorf a UCL hero for his performance vs. Bayern and vs United, Pirlo is rated higher. I think that during the 2000s, the vast majority of Milan fans would have said Pirlo is more important to the team than Seedorf. I think actually is was less of a question than Xavi vs Iniesta. Seedorf surely played better in certain moments and seasons than Pirlo, but overall I think Pirlo was conisder the maestro of that midfield. Kroos I think bolstered his reputation later, as I recall Modric getting the bulk of the praise until the 2020s.
Thanks! This is awesome. Interesting how Pirlo's highest rated performance in 2012 is actualyl against Germany in the semifinals rather than against England in the quarter finals.
Yes, the single most exciting moment was the cucchiaio vs England of course: What was the best page of the Euro 2012? 39,2% Pirlo's cucchiaio penalty vs England 24,4% Balotelli with mum 11,5% The passion of the Irish fans 8,7% Spain's triplete 4,5% Karagounis celebrating with his children 4,2% Shevchenko's two goals vs Sweden 2,8% Ibrahimovic's volley vs France 2,5% The fix that never happened (Croatia-Spain) 1,4% Casillas' save 0,8% Welbeck's heal flick And the worst? 38,1% Russian and Polish fans beating each other up 22,9% Italy's fiasco in the final 13,8% The Croatian bananas thrown at Balotelli 12,3% The "phantasm" goal in England-Ukraine 4,1% The German fan with the (recorded) tears 2,9% Nasri to a journalist: "I'll smash your face" 2,3% Cristiano Ronaldo and the penalty 2,3% Sneijder-Robben: who saw them? 2,3% Bendtner and his sponsorized strip 0,9% Rooney disappearing
The top rated players in 2012 were: 7,10 Iniesta (rated 6 times) 6,87 Xavi (6) 6,86 Khedira (5) 6,83 Pirlo (6), Mandžukić (3) 6,80 Xabi Alonso (6) 6,78 Casillas (6), Gerrard (4) 6,73 Dzagoev, Bendtner, Shevchenko (3) 6,72 Fàbregas (6) Ratings from the game Italy vs Germany. I had mostly Italian sources there and they got slightly carried away... 0-1 20' Balotelli, 0-2 36' Balotelli, 1-2 90' Özil penalty. Referee: Lannoy. Att: 55.540 (Warsaw). Germany: Neuer 6,10 - J. Boateng 5,50 (72' T. Müller 5,60), Hummels 5,20, Badstuber 5,00, Lahm 5,60 - Khedira 6,20, Schweinsteiger 5,30, Kroos 5,70, Özil 6,10, Podolski 4,70 (46' Reus 6,50) -M. Gómez 4,90. - coach: Löw 5,00. = average: 5,57 [failing] Italy: Buffon 7,00 - Balzaretti 6,70, Barzagli 7,00, Bonucci 6,90, Chiellini 6,50 - Marchisio 6,60, Pirlo 7,70, De Rossi 7,20, Montolivo 7,10 (63' Thiago Motta 6,10) - Cassano 7,40 (57' Diamanti 6,30), Balotelli 8,50 (70' Di Natale 6,00). - coach: Prandelli 8,00. = average: 6,93 [fantabulous]
Xavi doesn't have any official UEFA MOTM awards at the European Championships. But that probably isn't right, though. I reckon Iniesta has one or two of his deserved MOTM awards.
So who was MOTM in the 2012 final? The ratings I have: July 1st - final: Spain 4, Italy 0 1-0 14' Silva, 2-0 41' Jordi Alba, 3-0 84' Fernando Torres, 4-0 88' Mata. Referee: Proença 6,00. Att: 63.170 (Kyiv). Spain: Casillas 7,10 - Arbeloa 6,70, Piqué 6,90, Sergio Ramos 7,20, Jordi Alba 7,80 - Busquets 7,10, Xabi Alonso 7,20, Xavi 8,30 - Iniesta 8,20 (86' Mata 6,50), Silva 7,40 (59' Pedro 6,60), Fàbregas 7,70 (75' Fernando Torres 7,10). - coach: Del Bosque 7,90. = average: 7,27 [matchless] Italy: Buffon 5,90 - Abate 5,40, Barzagli 5,30, Bonucci 5,30, Chiellini 4,80 (21' Balzaretti 5,80) - Marchisio 5,10, Pirlo 5,80, De Rossi 5,70, Montolivo 5,60 (56' Thiago Motta) - Cassano 5,80 (46' Di Natale 5,50), Balotelli 5,80. - coach: Prandelli 5,50. = average: 5,52 [poor]
How are UEFA MOTM determined? WC MOTM used to be voted in by fans phoning in (biased sample) and can hardly be considered authoritative
Officially, Iniesta was MOTM in the final. https://www.uefa.com/euro2024/news/...0--every-euro-player-of-the-match-since-1996/
My 'demigod' remark was related to the 2006 World Cup. As you show, he gets a bump after 2006 by Gazzetta, which runs against DBScalcio their trajectory. Pirlo had for a long-time already the 'golden boy' status for what he did at underage levels, winning tournaments for Italy as topscorer, captain and best player. Similar to how Mancini, Vialli, Donadoni and the like reached the under-21 final of 1986 and after that they had a few more of those runs. But Pirlo in particular stood out. The number of appearances and his (cumulative) goalscoring speaks for itself. I don't think and I am not saying Pirlo was worse, I don't think this, but that they were really about equal, unlike what we have seen with Xavi and Modric in their teams. Modric is far ahead in DBScalcio. Xavi is far ahead in WhoScored and Sofascore. Gazzetta is a Milan based newspaper and often invoked racial slurs... DBScalcio is the average of Guerin Sportivo, Tuttosport, Gazzetta and Guerin Sportivo. You're right about DBScalcio. That's a good point. Iniesta is generally (far) ahead of Xavi. In ESM Xavi is similar to Iniesta too (but Seedorf ahead of Pirlo! also when including his Juventus time yes). You can argue though that Iniesta was in effect an attacking midfielder and a winger. He had a number of his best games when playing as the left winger in a 4-3-3. It is however not like Kroos vs Modric or Xavi vs Iniesta here, with the exception of 2004-05. That's exactly the core of the matter. Kroos has a 'dominance' over Modric, yes (in the way the midfield is set up) but that's just not true for Pirlo and Seedorf. Just as it is not true in the DBScalcio ratings or in ESM (where Seedorf is ahead! for Milan and career!) Seedorf is 0.13 ahead in Sofascore for 2003-04 (yes, you downplay that, I don't). He is 0.04 ahead in 2005-06 and 0.10 behind in 2006-07. That is not Kroos vs Modric or Xavi vs Iniesta stuff. After that he's getting older but actually is used way more often than Pirlo in the final two seasons, including the Scudetto of 2010-11. Seedorf moves by the way back to a 6.94 score for his final Champions League season, when he was 35-36. One misunderstanding here and one thing I don't agree with. The misunderstanding is here Pirlo was the volume passer like Xavi was (or Kroos?), compared to the other midfielders. That is wrong. Table dated 11 October 2002: Opta's best passers Rank Player Team League Passes per 90 minutes 1 Juan Veron United Premiership 82.2 2 Andrea Pirlo Milan Serie A 81.1 3 Xavi Barcelona La Liga 74.3 4 Barry Ferguson Rangers Scottish Premier League 72.7 5 Clarence Seedorf Milan Serie A 71.8 6 Patrick Vieira Arsenal Premiership 69.3 7 Stephen Appiah Brescia Serie A 68.6 8 Omar Milanetto Modena Serie A 68.3 9 Kerimoglou Tugay Blackburn Premiership 65.0 10 Steven Gerrard Liverpool Premiership 63.5 Some more (in 2004-05 Pirlo played 15 minutes more in the league; in 2005-06 Pirlo played 144 minutes more): https://web.archive.org/web/2005072...atistiche/classifiche/giocatori/passaggi.html https://web.archive.org/web/2006050...atistiche/classifiche/giocatori/passaggi.html https://web.archive.org/web/2006051...e/classifiche/giocatori/passaggi_attacco.html Pirlo and Seedorf were quite close to each other in passing volume and passes in opposition half. This is not like the Xavi situation. Seedorf often deputized for Pirlo when the latter couldn't play! Let's not pretend here he was merely a water carrier or workhorse. I'd agree Pirlo has the upper hand for the 2004-05 final run (but in Gazzetta you can also find critical remarks about his sloppiness) but really not 2002-03 and 2006-07 and ESM actually agrees with me here. As you say yourself, in 2006-07 Seedorf was the hero against Bayern and Manchester especially. In 2002-03 Pirlo wasn't a certain starter yet, Gazzetta and kicker rate him both worse as Seedorf in the final. Pirlo had 0 goals and 0 assists in the whole 2002-03 campaign. Seedorf had goals or assists against Dortmund, Bayern (twice), Deportivo la Coruna and made the all-important assist in the 2nd leg of the semi-final. ESM agrees with me here. Pirlo didn't play in four of the last eight games and was only late substitute in two of them. Seedorf was thus more crucial (and played more) in the 2003 and 2007 wins. Pirlo, I'd agree, has the advantage for 2004-05. Again, the whole point is Pirlo has not in the ratings (DBScalcio) and not in Sofascore a clear upper-hand. When they're in their prime years. This is really different for Modric and also Xavi (I'd think Iniesta was often an attacking midfielder or even forward).
The DBS rating is an adjusted rating that takes account of club averages and adjusts the media-ratings rating to reflect which players fared the best among their team-mates in effect I think (I hope that's the best way to describe it and understandable). The media ratings on DBS Calcio are themselves adjusted, considering that 6 is the average grade (so all the grades are analysed to work out how much to increase or decrease the grades shown on DBS Calcio - a source giving significantly more than 6 on average in a season as a grade has the ratings of the players reduced and vice versa). The sources used are referred to here Website www.dbscalcio.it | BigSoccer Forum Re: Xavi and Iniesta those DBS ratings and media ratings will be aligned I suppose, because they play for the same club, but the DBS version shows the effect of comparing to team-mates. I've said before that I think 2007/08 for Xavi in general was not so good as might be assumed now, although it's fair to point out those ratings on DBS Calcio are just from La Liga, and the high WhoScored CL ratings average could have been mirrored to some extent in media ratings (I'm not sure I saw any 2007/08 CL ratings for Barcelona) though his February 2008 inclusion in the ESM XI doesn't necessarily seem majorly due to his game away at Celtic I guess, on as sub towards the end: ESM team of the month (erubik.xyz) Minutes played 24' Goals 0 Assists 0 Touches 40 Accurate passes 32/34 (94%) Key passes 3 Crosses (acc.) 3 (2) Long balls (acc.) 4 (4) Shots on target 0 Shots off target 0 Shots blocked 0 Dribble attempts (succ.) 1 (1) Ground duels (won) 1 (1) Aerial duels (won) 0 (0) Possession lost 3 Fouls 0 Was fouled 0 Clearances 0 Blocked shots 0 Interceptions 1 Total tackles 0 Dribbled past 0
Yes, the averages have to be adjusted to the "standard" scale, which is the Italian one (where 6 means "promosso" = "decent"). In L'Équipe's scale 5 is the equivalent, so ratings need to be increased by one point. Historically, Italian newspapers gave much higher grades back in the 1980s. I think the Serie A average was above 6,30, but then a sharp decline started and now we're down to around 6,00. In the 2024 Euros, Italian newspapers (Gazzetta, Repubblica, Corriere etc) gave the following averages marks: Group stage, matchday 1 : 5,99 Group stage, matchday 2 : 5,99 Group stage, matchday 3 : 6,04 Round of 16 : 6,00 Quarterfinals : 6,03 Semifinals : 6,12 Final : 6,26
You don't happen to have Barcelona 2007/08 Champions League ratings handy do you mate? I thought I'd ask since you're here and I referred to that topic in my post....
This is what I have right now: 1/4 2008 Schalke-Barcelona 0-1 0-1 12' Bojan. Att: 53.951. Schalke: Neuer 5,25 — Rafinha 5,75, Bordon 7,00, Krstajic 6,00, Westermann 6,75 — F. Ernst 6,75, Kobiashvili 5,50 — Asamoah 5,00 (73' S. Larsen), Pander 6,00 — Kuranyi 4,75 (60' V. Sánchez 6,25), Halil Altintop 6,25 (88' Lövenkrands). — coach: Slomka. Barcelona: Víctor Valdés 6,50 — Zambrotta 6,25, Puyol 6,50, G. Milito 6,75, Abidal 5,50 — Yaya Touré 6,25 (74' Márquez) — Xavi 7,25, Iniesta 7,50 — Eto'o 5,50 (82' Giovani dos Santos) , Bojan 7,00 (86' Sylvinho), Henry 6,00. — coach: Rijkaard. 9/4 2008 Barcelona-Schalke 1-0 1-0 43' Yaya Touré. Att: 72.113. Barcelona: Víctor Valdés 6,75 — Zambrotta 6,25, Thuram 6,50, Puyol 7,00, Abidal 6,50 — Yaya Touré 7,00 (81' Márquez) — Xavi 6,50, Iniesta 7,25 — Bojan 7,00 (73' Giovani dos Santos), Henry 5,50 (91' Gudjohnsen) — Eto'o 5,75. — coach: Rijkaard. Schalke: Neuer 7,50 — Rafinha 6,50 (77' S. Larsen), Bordon 6,50, Krstajic 6,25, Westermann 6,25 — F. Ernst 6,75 — J. Jones 7,50, Kobiashvili 6,50 (32' Grossmüller 5,75) — Halil Altintop 6,50 — Asamoah 6,75 (69' Sánchez), Kuranyi 6,25. — coach: Slomka. 23/4 2008 Barcelona-Man United 0-0 Att: 95.949 på Camp Nou. Barcelona: Víctor Valdés 6,00 — Gianluca Zambrotta 6,43, Eric Abidal 6,00, Gabriel Alejandro Milito 5,29, Rafael Márquez 6,14 — Yaya Touré 7,14, Xavi 7,07, Andrés Iniesta 6,50, Deco 6,50 (77' Thierry Henry 5,62) — Lionel Andrés Messi 7,29 (62' Bojan Krkic 5,75), Samuel Eto'o 5,86. — coach: Frank Rijkaard. Man United: Edwin van der Sar 6,93 — Owen Hargreaves 6,21, Patrice Evra 5,79, Rio Ferdinand 7,43, Wes Brown 6,07 — Michael Carrick 5,93, Cristiano Ronaldo 5,21, Paul Scholes 6,57, Ji-Sung Park 5,29 — Wayne Rooney 5,14 (76' Nani), Carlos Tévez 5,50 (85' Ryan Giggs). — coach: Sir Alex Ferguson. Ratings: Gazzetta dello Sport-El Mundo-The Times-The Sun-Guardian-Kicker. 29/4 2008 Man United-Barcelona 1-0 1-0 14 Scholes. Att: 75.061. Man United: Edwin van der Sar 6,25 — Owen Hargreaves 6,70, Patrice Evra 6,65 (90' Mikaël Silvestre), Wes Brown 7,20, Rio Ferdinand 7,60 — Michael Carrick 6,90, Ji-Sung Park 7,00, Paul Scholes 7,50 (77' Darren Fletcher), Cristiano Ronaldo 6,45 — Carlos Tévez 7,00, Nani 6,25 (77' Ryan Giggs). — coach: Sir Alex Ferguson 6,67. Barcelona: Víctor Valdés 5,95 — Gianluca Zambrotta 5,00, Eric Abidal 6,00, Carles Puyol 6,40, Gabriel Alejandro Milito 6,20 — Gneri Yaya Touré 6,45 (88' Eidur Gudjohnsen), Xavi 6,05, Deco 6,15, Andrés Iniesta 5,45 (60' Thierry Henry 5,57) — Lionel Andrés Messi 7,15, Samuel Eto'o 4,70 (72' Bojan Krkic Pérez 5,60). — coach: Frank Rijkaard 6,00. Ratings: The Sun — Telegraph — SkySports — Manchester Evening News — Sport — Gazzetta dello Sport — La Repubblica — Corriere della Sera — La Stampa — Kicker — Mundo Deportivo.
Barcelona's overall ratings in El Mundo Deportivo that season were (2=decent): All competitions. 3,00 Lionel Messi (38 rated appearances) 2,73 Iniesta (48) 2,67 Gabriel Milito (42) 2,53 Puyol (45) 2,52 Bojan (40) 2,51 Yaya Touré (37) 2,50 Deco (28) 2,35 Víctor Valdés (52) 2,27 Ronaldinho Gaúcho (26) 2,25 Xavi (53), Rafael Márquez (32) 2,16 Sylvinho (19) 2,14 Éric Abidal (44) 2,04 Frank Rijkaard, Samuel Eto'o (28) 2,00 Giovani dos Santos (33), Eiður Guðjohnsen (28), Oleguer (12) 1,98 Thierry Henry (46) 1,85 Lilian Thuram (27) 1,82 Gianluca Zambrotta (40) 1,38 Edmilson (13)
Just for reference: that bolded Neuer game got in the index 'only' a 7.8 (7.2 in the other match). Xavi was with 8.8 far ahead of Iniesta at 7.3, rather than the other way around. Van der Sar had 8.2 for the first and 7.6 for the 2nd game.
Yes, this is correct. To summarize my point though: Pirlo doesn't have a (clear) advantage, even a (slight) disadvantage at times, in ESM, Sofascore and in DBScalcio. Where he is playing a home match. Unlike popular perception, Pirlo was also not the 'volume passer'. They were about equal in their primes. For Xavi and Modric you can point to something where they have a clear upper hand. WhoScored and Sofascore for Xavi, Dbscalcio for Modric (and ESM, where is about equal with Kroos). That's not true for Pirlo. Initially golden boy, later demigod.
Mundo Deportivo was probably also the source for the La Liga ratings on DBS Calcio (with converted ratings - from this scale to 1-10 scale) I guess, according to the linked thread I posted today that vyncy made (it does say 'in absence Marca' so that could mean if he has Marca grades he used them instead possibly for certain seasons). Probably Xavi's grades will have been a bit better in the Champions League than in La Liga, and quite a lot of Barcelona players (not all) will have been given average/low ratings in La Liga games in a disappointing league season for them (albeit actually they still came 3rd so it's a matter of expectations and prior success).
I guess the volume passing could be a factor indeed, comparing Mundo Deportivo or whoever's grades with Sofascore (I should have referred to Sofascore for Xavi's 2007/08 grades earlier not WhoScored of course). Not so relevant to Xavi/Pirlo, but another thing to recognise I suppose is that arguably Sofascore will be giving 10s or close to 10s often when a player has scored a high number of goals in a game (almost by default?). Not to say that Sofascore stats won't be insightful in certain respects or that media ratings won't be flawed in their own ways obviously too....