Is Garber nuts!? Chivas to operation under different rules...

Discussion in 'MLS: General' started by American40, Oct 16, 2003.

  1. gschroeder

    gschroeder Member

    Jun 18, 2001
    Thornton, Colorado
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Fact is MLS IS an American League that allows a set number on international players play.

    Fact is it is just as illegal to say we aren't going to hire any whites as it is to say we aren't going to hire any blacks. Of course the person still has to be quallified. If you think it's right to have a team that only allows mexicans you are engaging in discrimination. Can you imagine what would happen if an NBA team said they were only going to sign white people for their team?

    The "Only Americans Need Apply" statement is just plaing stupid IMO. To work in the US you need a work VISA and they don't just hand those out like Illegal immigrant drivers licenses. There is a reason for that. American jobs are for Americans. Believe it or not the same laws apply to MLS as they do to any American company.
     
  2. CUS

    CUS New Member

    Apr 20, 2000
    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Is Garber nuts!? Chivas to operation under different rules...

    He'll just say that he was never given a fair chance because, since he is not Hispanic, the evaluation was already prejudiced against him.
     
  3. RuiJorge2002

    RuiJorge2002 New Member

    Apr 17, 2002
    Southeastern MA
    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Is Garber nuts!? Chivas to operation under different rules...

    It's true. Just the media attention this would bring would be major, because lets face it, the media always picks up on anything "wrong" with soccer.
     
  4. riverplate

    riverplate Member+

    Jan 1, 2003
    Corona, Queens
    Club:
    CA River Plate
    Who's going to file a lawsuit if the entire ownership of MLS is on board, along with the players union? Some shmuck in the stands?

    And since you're making a Federal case out of this, you are aware that something can be technically "unconstitutional," but if it's never dragged into court or if the nine wise souls ultimately choose not to hear about it, it stays in effect.
     
  5. American40

    American40 Member

    Jan 9, 2003
    No one is complaining about barring non-white Americans, they are complaining about the possiblity of Chivas being able to follow different rules than the rest of the MLS teams for it's advantage. What is so difficult to understand about that?
     
  6. CUS

    CUS New Member

    Apr 20, 2000
    Then they will be sued, too.

    And it IS a federal case and I have provided the law as it has been written.
     
  7. jd2084

    jd2084 New Member

    Aug 1, 2001
    Rhode Island
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Who's going to file a lawsuit?

    Just think that you're chosen in the draft by Chicago. You get cut and can't find another team in MLS. Then it comes out that Chivas has only signed players along ethnic lines. I would say that you have a pretty good case that you should have been given a chance to compete with those other players based on your skill, but weren't given it because of ethnicity. I would file a lawsuit. "I'm as good as that person but wasn't allowed to compete for a job because I was discriminated against". It's the same thing as not considering someone with a greencard equal to someone born here. In the employment world you can't do it.

    And if they tried to say that there was a need for that person to speak spanish I still think they would have a problem. It's proven in other sports that you don't need to be able to speak English and play with players who speak english. Many of these Japanesse baseball players couldn't speak english when they came and Yao can't really speak english.
     
  8. riverplate

    riverplate Member+

    Jan 1, 2003
    Corona, Queens
    Club:
    CA River Plate
    Most people on these boards seem to think the system of drafts and trades and salary caps and payroll restrictions and limited foreign roster spots, etc., are great. If that system is so fabulous, than why are any of you fearing Chivas employing different methods of building a squad. Don't you think they will fall on their face as a result? Isn't that what you all want? If so, let them go about their own business their own way. You'll be happy with the disaster they are setting themselves up for.

    Or do you secretly fear the freedom and system they will have shall produce positive results for them? Therefore, shattering your myth that MLS has devised the finest (and only) possible way of organizing and administering a soccer league in this country.

    If Chivas succeeds, then everyone will want to do their own thing. God forbid we allow that to happen, right? So kill the experiment while it's still in the cradle and we can always say it never would have worked.

    Hey, guys, I've got a better idea. Let Chivas be Chivas. Let Vergara have his way. If your ideas on MLS are so strong and correct, we'll all see that clearly.

    But if not...well, you don't want to think about that, do you?
     
  9. gschroeder

    gschroeder Member

    Jun 18, 2001
    Thornton, Colorado
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nice conspiracy but this is why.
    Because MLS is Single Entity. It's a young league and working hard to build it's future. Having Chivas come in a fall flat on their face because their too stupid to understand American laws also hurts MLS.

    Their being selective because what hurts one team hurts the league. Can't have teams folding like Tampa and Miami.
     
  10. ElJefe

    ElJefe Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 16, 1999
    Colorful Colorado
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Something tells me that the players' union isn't going to be on board, with their membership 70-75% comprised of non-Hispanics.
     
  11. voros

    voros Member

    Jun 7, 2002
    Parts Unknown
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    But I think the burden of proof is on people to show that this is the case.

    One of my pet peeves with USSoccer is the inability to develop players from the city and too many players coming from the suburbs (in a previous thread I mentioned that of the 25 players "in the picture" from the Chicagoland area, only one was actually from the City of Chicago and that player was from the Latin School) but I think we lose the point when we try and view that in racial terms. I think we're not developing a bunch of white and asian and black players that could be developed because of this, as well as latinos.

    I don't see where Chivas USA does much of anything to solve this problem. An MLS youth develop system might do so, though. Again it's a geographic and economic problem. All of the youth clubs are in the suburbs and are "pay to play" with a few scholarship players.

    I'm not against Chivas USA, really, just that I think the assumption that they will unlock some sort of "key" to tapping the holy grail of the "latino soccer market" is a little optimistic. And giving away the store to Vergara because you think they can is probably a bad idea.
     
  12. jd2084

    jd2084 New Member

    Aug 1, 2001
    Rhode Island
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Your knowledge of MLS is frieghtening!!!

    MLS's system of player allocation, salary caps and allocations is there for one reason and one reason only - parity. It keeps everyone on a level playing field. Unlike leagues in Europe and SA where you can basically sign anyone to any contract you want they try to keep control of player movement and salaries so that the league is balanced. If you notice there are no Real's, ManU's or NY Yankees in MLS. Teams have a hard time building dynasties because they have to budget their salaries. This also minimizes the chance that teams will be perenial bottom dwellers. By having a draft it allows teams with bad records to still have a chance to get good players. In Europe all the good players flock to the big clubs because they can pay the most. In MLS you play for who you get drafted by. You think Taylor Twellman would have chosen to go to New England? Being from the Midwest I assume his preference would have been Chicago or KC.
     
  13. ElJefe

    ElJefe Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 16, 1999
    Colorful Colorado
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Never mind that the San Diego Goats are not ever going to do what Sisniega has been saying to the Spanish press.

    First, somebody's gotta be telling Vergara that it's not going to work on the field.

    Second, somebody's gotta be telling Vergara (and the other MLS investors) that it would basically be an invitation for a lawsuit that they would almost certainly lose in federal court.

    Bottom line is that Sisniega is just stroking their potential fanbase through the Spanish press. When the team actually kicks off in 2004 or 2005, they're not going to be any browner than DC United or the LA Galaxy.
     
  14. spike

    spike Member

    Feb 22, 2001
    Tejas
    I'm hoping this was said in jest, because if not, it is one of the sillier claims that I have heard in a while. Some of the most racist people I've ever met in my life were Mexican. Not that it's a contest, but I've hears some spectacularly igorant things on the topic from friends, acquaintances and others in Mexico.

    If you don't believe me, just ask any Guatemalan. Hell, ask an Indian from Oaxaca or Chiapas, for that matter.
     
  15. riverplate

    riverplate Member+

    Jan 1, 2003
    Corona, Queens
    Club:
    CA River Plate
    I don't mean to be insulting , but do you know what your problem is? You're like any number of nincompoops I've dealt with from Human Resources departments over the years.

    Everything's a ****ing legal issue and everything's a ****ing court case waiting to happen.

    By the way, there's no women in the league, either. I don't see Mia Hamm suing MLS. Do you?
     
  16. gschroeder

    gschroeder Member

    Jun 18, 2001
    Thornton, Colorado
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    You must have no understanding of the law. Discrimination based on race is BIG no no, FEDERALLY. Its plain and simple. Lawsuits have happend for far minor things. You must also know that the women argument is basically a whole different issue (or can of worms) that is being dealt with in Golf and college which revolve more along the lines of being able to compete with men but I'm not gonna dare get into that. Pick up a paper why don't you.
    The whole argument is racial discrimination.
     
  17. The Cadaver

    The Cadaver It's very quiet here.

    Oct 24, 2000
    La Cañada, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Lets just assume for the moment that the legalities are resolved and there is some way MLS could let Chivas USA do what the owner is quated as saying.

    Could it possibly be a good business decision to have a league where different teams have different rules? In other words, would MLS gain more in terms of investment and Mexican interest than it would lose by disillusioning existing fans about the fairness of the competition? I suppose this is a cost-benefit analysis. But, as an existing fan and season ticket holder it would certainly dampen my enthusiasm for this operation. Not because I was offended by illegal activity, but because I would be offended by the fundamental unfairness of a built-in competative difference (and potential advantage).
     
  18. onefineesq

    onefineesq Member+

    Sep 16, 2003
    Laurel, MD
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm not even going to speak to the heart of this thread in general ....... just to your post. Basically, your post comparing the people who disagree with you to "nincompoops" is ignorant. Do you not think that a business, (and let's get that straight, the league is a business), should NOT be concerned if one arm of the business has stated publicly to the media that they will only hire people from one ethnic group? What you are asking for MLS and others who love MLS to do, is to put blinders on and ignore the fact that the Vergara and his folks have gone on record in touching on a very dicey subject in American culture (race) which could possibly impinge on the health of the league. not only would people in MLS be unwise to not take a serious look at that, but they'd be downright negligent to not do so. the league, at this stage of the game, cannot afford to have an ugly civil rights case on their hand. the mere ALLEGATION of such, would probably destroy MLS.
     
  19. Stinkey Turner

    Dec 15, 2000
    Interesting, but it could be agrued that adding Manchester United USA or Real Madrid USA, filled with thier reservists and first team loans, could be a huge potnetial benifit to the league, just by brand name alone.
     
  20. gschroeder

    gschroeder Member

    Jun 18, 2001
    Thornton, Colorado
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    It could also be argued that bringing in past-their-prime soccer superstars from other countries could be a benifit as well. But the NASL learned otherwise right? The day MLS starts marketing the league this way will mark the day it starts taking huge steps backwards, erasing what they've already accomplished.
     
  21. riverplate

    riverplate Member+

    Jan 1, 2003
    Corona, Queens
    Club:
    CA River Plate
    Don't question my knowledge of the way MLS runs. I'm fully aware of everything you have stated.

    I am AGAINST parity. I like GOLIATH teams in sports. I think Man U, Real, the Yankees, and the former greatness of the Boston Celtics and Montreal Canadiens in their respective sports are to be admired.
     
  22. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Do you have your citizenship yet? If so, I'm surprised that you passed the test with this kind of amazing ignorance of history.

    HINT: When did Pumpsie Green sign with the Red Sox? When did the civil rights revolution happen?

    This is almost as silly as asking why Nat Turner didn't sue under the 13th amendment. (It is the 13th, right?)
     
  23. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: Re: Re: Is Garber nuts!? Chivas to operation under different rules...

    The mistake you and everyone making this point repeatedly makes is assuming white=suburban, and white=middle class.

    Pretty racist if you ask me. semi ;)
     
  24. vic_0002

    vic_0002 New Member

    Aug 13, 2003
    Dallas, TX
    Because if the "different methods" means automatic exclusion based on color or ethnic background, then many people don't agree that was the spirit of pro sports or MLS.



    That's not the point... the point is legitimizing this exclusionary concept for a team in this league.



    No, MLS has NOT devised the best possible way of administering a soccer league in this country. Nobody has that "myth". But a better way to disprove that is to begin a seperate rival professional league to run MLS out of town.



    God forbid we should all start to believe it's ok to start preventing certain players on teams based on thier appearance or language or ethnic background. But if some people don't care about this at all and think it should be allright, oh well.



    Chivas is already Chivas in Mexico, and the only feelings about MLS that are "strong and correct" is that the league wasn't created with exclusion on teams in mind. If MLS had wanted teams to oeprate this way from the beginning, then fine they should have said so from the start.



    But if not...well, you don't want to think about that, do you? [/B][/QUOTE]
     
  25. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    No. Are you being serious here? Are you so caught up in your victimhood that you've lost it? I mean, not every programmer in Bombay can come to the US you know.
     

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