Is Garber nuts!? Chivas to operation under different rules...

Discussion in 'MLS: General' started by American40, Oct 16, 2003.

  1. CUS

    CUS New Member

    Apr 20, 2000
    Show me where any of these teams have publically stated they will hire only players of a specific national origin.
     
  2. kpaulson

    kpaulson New Member

    Jun 16, 2000
    Washington DC
    Re: Re: Is Garber nuts!? Chivas to operation under different rules...

    Let's try to keep this straight:

    Just because the USMNT looks more like the "face of America" than any other sports team has nothing to do with real equality. If, say, there are better latino players than the white players, then latinos should be "over"-represented.

    As it is, the backgrounds of our best players are varied. But compared to other sports, we do seem to have more suburban white kids (is Devin Barclay a professional in any other sport?) There's nothing wrong with that, but it does make me wonder if we're over-scouting some communities.

    You can call it discrimination if you want, but I don't think it's intentional (or blameworthy). But even if we don't want to blame anyone, we still have a problem: some players as good as the others we do scout may be ignored.

    The only question to me is exactly how many of these players are out there. On the pro level, it can't be that many and I seriously doubt it will be enough for Chivas USA to compete in MLS.
     
  3. kpaulson

    kpaulson New Member

    Jun 16, 2000
    Washington DC
    CUS,
    Just tell me how those rules will stop Chivas USA from having a Spanish-speaking team?

    I'd love to see that case.
     
  4. gschroeder

    gschroeder Member

    Jun 18, 2001
    Thornton, Colorado
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Language isn't the problem race is. You can't make a statement that you are going to have a team of one race. At least not in the US you can't
     
  5. CUS

    CUS New Member

    Apr 20, 2000
    I just threw it out there, to be frank. If someone has argued that he was discriminated at the workplace because it was officially 'English only', the opposite may be argued as well.

    Not sure if they can apply this particular case, but there will likely be some scum-sucking lawyer (sorry) that may try it.
     
  6. JMMUSA8

    JMMUSA8 New Member

    Nov 3, 2001
    Webster
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Chivas wont be able to go with an all Mexican team, they will get sued by any american in San Diego who wants to try out. There isnt alot of Mexicans in college that can be drafted (the only one i can think of is Memo), so they are goin to have to be forced to draft Americans, or sell their draft picks. If they seriously try to pull off this all mexican team, they will be in financial trouble and eventually pull out of the league. I have no idea what Garber is thinking but if he has any clue about the uproar of the Chivas playing in the All Star game he would know hes heading down a path that will get him fired. This is American soccer, not Mexican. If i want to watch Mexican soccer, i'll watch Telemundo. Garber, for the sake of the league, treat this team like the rest of the teams and give them 3 SI's. Exceptions will not be tolerated.
     
  7. JohnR

    JohnR Member+

    Jun 23, 2000
    Chicago, IL
    Re: Re: Re: Is Garber nuts!? Chivas to operation under different rules...

    I don't think that there are better latino players than white players at the later teenage years. The U.S. National youth team people (and Arena, indirectly) have said that this is a myth, and for one believe them.

    Now ... it is very possible that there are a host of promising young latino (and other city players) who never receive the training that they need to become top 17 year old prospects. That I do believe. (Although not everybody does.) But this topic has already been covered in exhausting detail in the past on other boards.
     
  8. riverplate

    riverplate Member+

    Jan 1, 2003
    Corona, Queens
    Club:
    CA River Plate
    Isn't a restriction on "foreign" players discriminitory?
     
  9. gschroeder

    gschroeder Member

    Jun 18, 2001
    Thornton, Colorado
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    No a restiction to citizens would be though, regardless of race.
    If you are a US citizen, there are no restrictions.
     
  10. Bill Archer

    Bill Archer BigSoccer Supporter

    Mar 19, 2002
    Washington, NC
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Of course it is.

    Choosing Cheerios over Corn Flakes is "discriminatory". Choosing Coke over Pepsi is "discriminatory".

    What your question probably is is: "Isn't this illegal discrimination?"

    And the answer is no. Because the truth of the matter is that American Law protects American Citizens. By and large.

    If you are a Ugandan or a Swede or a Mongolian, you do not have an inherant legal right to compete for a job in the US.
     
  11. monop_poly

    monop_poly Member

    May 17, 2002
    Chicago
    Wheelock's a do-do and should be extinct. His article contains a bunch of tripe about soccer transcending the petty bounds of nationalism and race. Does he actually follow international soccer? Did the English and Turkey just recently play a love-fest in Istanbul? Do the Dutch fans view Germany as a brother country when they take the pitch in a "friendly?" Soccer is, to a substantial degree, defined by nationalism and ethnic heritage. I just happens to be played 'round the world.

    Now to Chivas - if they have a team in San Diego, with a youth program geared to southern California Mexican-American kids, does anybody really doubt that they would be successful. It's a great idea. They will have a marketable product and an excellent player pipeline (wonder how they'll avoid draft issues). They will draw well at home and on the road. They will broaden the pro soccer market in the USA. If successful, look for a duplicate in Tucson or San Anton.

    Big picture - Chivas should be welcomed generously rather than begrudgingly or suspiciously. And if international player restrictions need to be revisited, then so be it. I'd be very happy if the Chicago Bulls spoke Serbo-Croatian and played as well as the Sacramento Kings.
     
  12. CUS

    CUS New Member

    Apr 20, 2000
    Re: Re: Is Garber nuts!? Chivas to operation under different rules...

    The challenge remains. Show me any MLB, NFL, NBA team that has publically stated they will hire only players of a specific national origin.
     
  13. NateP

    NateP Member

    Mar 28, 2001
    Plainfield, NH, USA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don't really have a problem with this. If they want to revist the rules for everybody than so be it. They should NOT revisit the rules for just Chivas. They are welcome to try to make a go of creating their Mexican/Hispanic only team under the current rules but I am not in the least sure they'll be able to succeed at it.

    The only challenge I can think of to the legal case that CUS has advanced may be on the technicality that while Chivas is limiting players based on ethnicity contracts are with MLS, not Chivas, and MLS doesn't have any such policy. That said I am not sure the "franchise" argument will carry any weight, surely my local fast food joint can be sued for discrimination if they are breaking the law even if the national chain isn't.
     
  14. CUS

    CUS New Member

    Apr 20, 2000
    I was thinking along the same lines Nate, but the problem is that they will only consider Mexican and Mexican heritage players will come back to haunt them. And is that a battle MLS is willing and prepared to fight?
     
  15. onefineesq

    onefineesq Member+

    Sep 16, 2003
    Laurel, MD
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: Re: Re: Is Garber nuts!? Chivas to operation under different rules...

    This answer ignores the reality of soccer in the US. MLS is NOT MLB, the NFL, or the NBA. Each of those leagues has decades of rich history in this country and a tremendous fanbase. And because of that truth, fans identify with the teams and it's tradition. As such, they could traipse out teams of all Ugandans, and noone would care as long as the team won. MLS has a limited fanbase and will continue to have a limited fanbase if the masses of this country feel that it is not an "American" league. that's the reality of it. Once MLS establishes a following that rivals something close to the least of those 3 sports, then the question can be revisited. Until then, you are comparing apples and oranges.
     
  16. ThreeApples

    ThreeApples Member+

    Jul 28, 1999
    Smurf Village
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Single entity doesn't make a difference. It's no different than if GM said they were only going to hire people of a specific race for just one of their factories. They couldn't say it's OK just because people of any race can still work for GM at any of their other factories and they all get paid the same.
     
  17. NateP

    NateP Member

    Mar 28, 2001
    Plainfield, NH, USA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That's what I figured Noah, just thinking out loud so to speak. Thanks.

    Looks like Chivas would have to play by the rules.
     
  18. CUS

    CUS New Member

    Apr 20, 2000
    Re: Re: Re: Re: Is Garber nuts!? Chivas to operation under different rules...

    That's all fine and dandy, but what does all this have to do with discriminatory hiring practices? The first non-Hispanic that is cut from tryouts with the Chivas de San Diego is going straight for legal counsul.
     
  19. onefineesq

    onefineesq Member+

    Sep 16, 2003
    Laurel, MD
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Is Garber nuts!? Chivas to operation under different rules...

    Sorry about that. i actually misinterpreted your statement. I actually agree with your post.
     
  20. diablodelsol

    diablodelsol Member+

    Jan 10, 2001
    New Jersey
    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Is Garber nuts!? Chivas to operation under different rules...

    Wouldn't he have to prove he was qualified for the job?
     
  21. riverplate

    riverplate Member+

    Jan 1, 2003
    Corona, Queens
    Club:
    CA River Plate
    Dear John Ashcroft wannabes:

    This is an internal league matter. If the league does not bar American players of any stripe from playing for it, the clubs are free to sign whom they wish. What is so difficult to understand about that?

    Along the same lines, I also advocate the resurrection of a Cosmos franchise at some future date to be filled with only international players--and I don't necessarily mean an all-star squad. No U.S. guys permitted (except, maybe, a requirement that they be established internationals themselves--for example, Reyna would be eligible to play for them.) That wouldn't be discriminatory either. Simply a club running its own ship its own way.

    If you want a club that only wants home-grown players, go for it. It wouldn't bother me.

    I'm the one trying to open this thing up to give everybody a chance to play in our league. You are the ones with the "Only Americans Need Apply" policy. You all have some hell of a nerve saying I'm the one engaging in discrimination.
     
  22. kpaulson

    kpaulson New Member

    Jun 16, 2000
    Washington DC
    Re: Re: Re: Re: Is Garber nuts!? Chivas to operation under different rules...

    The only problem with that is that the US national youth people are sort of invested in the answer. Saying that there are better latino players than white players would mean they're not finding them.

    That said, I highly doubt the system is missing many high-level latino players-- no more than a handful.

    But given that we've got well over 30 million latinos in this coutry, and among them you'd assume rates of participation in soccer are higher than the general population, proportionate representation of latinos on the national team doesn't seem quite right.

    And, when you further breakdown the nationalities of the latinos on our national team, you find a much lower percentage of Mexicans than you'd expect, given the predominance of Mexicans among American latinos.

    What's the bottom line?

    I think latinos probably are underrepresented in the US team, but I can't tell you exactly what is going wrong. If Chivas USA can help that, I'd love to see it.
     
  23. CUS

    CUS New Member

    Apr 20, 2000
    Which part of it's a Federal Law do you not yet understand?
     
  24. kpaulson

    kpaulson New Member

    Jun 16, 2000
    Washington DC
    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Is Garber nuts!? Chivas to operation under different rules...

    One of the great misconceptions about our wonderful legal system.

    Sure, eventually he'd have to prove that. But he could rack up a helluva legal bill for MLS before he even got that far as long as he wasn't ridiculously below the standard of MLS...

    It doesn't matter if his case would be a winner or not for the damage to be done.
     
  25. JohnR

    JohnR Member+

    Jun 23, 2000
    Chicago, IL
    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Is Garber nuts!? Chivas to operation under different rules...

    100% agreement, on all accounts.
     

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