Is Garber nuts!? Chivas to operation under different rules...

Discussion in 'MLS: General' started by American40, Oct 16, 2003.

  1. American40

    American40 Member

    Jan 9, 2003
    Gee, jri, and how many posts do YOU have?

    ;)
     
  2. jri

    jri Red Card

    Sep 28, 2000
    boca
    ("I don't like them") this is GREAT for soccer...you'll have in MLS cities...Mexican fans who come out to support (Chivas as rival team), and also hard-core fans who HATE them....passion....higher attendence...buzz......that's what is needed period in soccer in US vs. soccer soccer moms who don't know the game...the big problem with many MLS games in lack of atmosphere, or event-like quality.....

    Chivas has obviously struck a nerve here...cool...

    Stick Chivas in LA....let them play in Coliseum derbys should be a kick (pun intended)...would be cool to see 50-60k in Coliseum...Home Depot would be rockin' on derby days...
     
  3. American40

    American40 Member

    Jan 9, 2003
    Gee, deg2k, go look at the veeeery first post of this thread, you know, the one with the exact same link as yours.

    ;)
     
  4. jri

    jri Red Card

    Sep 28, 2000
    boca
    (My posts) I come in spurts around here...but certainly don't live on here (and gasp, gopher information...to which we are all grateful....but I wonder, are these trust-fund babies, or high school kids, or what?
     
  5. deg2k

    deg2k New Member

    Aug 3, 2003
    Austin, Tx
    Re: Re: wrong

    Then you need to explain further because your comment is sounds more like all he does is print false stories. I know Chris well enough to know he has a pasion for MLS, protects players by not printing the story till MLS HQ or whomever says it safe to do so etc etc. That is why I took your comment seriously. I apologize for snapping at you but please becareful what you say lol.


     
  6. deg2k

    deg2k New Member

    Aug 3, 2003
    Austin, Tx
    sorry about that. The moderator must have the thread "MLS Chivas a bad thing" linked to this thread. :)


     
  7. CyphaPSU

    CyphaPSU Member+

    Mar 16, 2003
    Not Far
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Funny comments about "NAFTA players." NAFTA is a treaty between Canada, the US, and Mexico only. NAFTA's Chapter 11 wouldn't apply in this case because MLS is a private organization that can make its own governing rules. NAFTA's Chapter 11 only applies to the dealings of state (federal or state/provincial) governments and foreign NAFTA investors located in their jurisdictions. Chivas cannot sue the US government over MLS rules.


    Switching up topic a bit, the comments by Chiva's Sisniega bother me.

    "The MLS has agreed to allow us to have more Mexican players, and we would also seek Mexican-Americans and other players of Latin origin.''
    "We want Spanish to be the main language on the team and we want to stay close to our Mexican roots.''

    First of all MLS hasn't offically agreed to anything yet, as other sources are suggesting. I feel it is entirely inappropriate for a club to join MLS with segregational intentions. MLS is an American soccer league that is open to internationals to join, but with limitations because the league is intended to foster the growth of American professional soccer (regardless of race, class, or ethnicity).

    Mexico has its own league. Chivas stays close to its Mexican roots in Mexico (which makes perfect sense--in Mexico) by not allowing foreign players on their club. Now it is trying to impose that in a foreign country--the US. It seems a bit hypocritical...the only way it wouldn't be hypocritical is if Chivas USA said they would only field a side made soley of American players in MLS.

    I sort of view this situation as institutional segregation. In a league that is becoming increasingly diverse, which is good, becoming increasingly better for Americans of all colors and ethnicities, why take a step backwards with double standards and introduce a team that manifests segregation?
     
  8. deg2k

    deg2k New Member

    Aug 3, 2003
    Austin, Tx
    finally someone that understands!

     
  9. uclacarlos

    uclacarlos Member+

    Aug 10, 2003
    east coast
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Spain
    Unfortunately, our system is virtually exclusive based on social class, which inevitably excludes racial minorities. USMNT and USWNT are both comprised of players coming from suburban soccer leagues. (The men's team is peppered w/ Euro-born/raised guys who came through Euro systems.)

    So to which "America" do you refer? The fact remains that tremendous inroads need to be made in creating a feeder system that fosters growth in ALL of the country, not just the middle class.

    It's not a step backwards. It's actually a step FORWARD, a step that has yet to be made in grand scale. Chivas has stated quite boldly that they will begin a feeder system that reaches into the barrios and inner-cities in order to maintain the "Latino / Mexican-flavor" they are promoting. This is where the power of Chivas' brand name comes in: it brings instant respect and attention in the barrios.

    The institutional class segregation that exists needs to be changed. US Latinos are the number consumer group of soccer. Where is their position in soccer in this country?

    And what difference does it make that they want to have Spanish be the primary language? Geez, in Cali, you have to know a bit of Spanish to get by on the field. Why do you think Baby Jesus (Donovan) speaks fluent Spanish? Shout out "aguas", and every Anglo in Cali will pass you the ball down the line...
     
  10. deg2k

    deg2k New Member

    Aug 3, 2003
    Austin, Tx
    Well I not going to get into the whole composition of the USA Nats. That's not what this is about.

    why does the club have to be all Mexican with a sprinkling of hispanic-americans(1-2 players) and ONLY speak spanish? I do recall this is an American league and whether you like it or not all Americans should be given opportunity to play. I see the Chivas owner as a racist because he throws down the high and mighty racial card on the negotiations table with certain specifications. Again, this is an american league and he should abide by MLS rules. He should also abide by a federally mandated law which includes equal opportunity for employment as an American player.

    UCLCarlos, question for you...are you a proud US citizen or just visiting the USA on a work permit?

     
  11. Bill Schmidt

    Bill Schmidt BigSoccer Supporter

    Aug 3, 2003
    Washington, DC
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Carlos, you're right again. There are huge sections of American society that remain untapped by soccer. If Chivas USA will really be looking for Hispanic-American talent, and maybe develop an academy, just wait ten years to see what it does for US Soccer.
     
  12. deg2k

    deg2k New Member

    Aug 3, 2003
    Austin, Tx
    I resent that. I think it should be all americans. Not just Carlos wants the MLS to coddle to because he is Hispanic. It shouldn't matter if you are Irish, african-american, asian-american etc etc. There are neighborhoods all around the country that have what you call a barios(spelling?) and they are not just hispanic.

     
  13. Bonji

    Bonji Moderator

    Feb 4, 2003
    Denver, Colorado
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    My NAFTA post was more just to say that MLS can be open to Canadian and Mexican players in a similar way to how most European leagues allow unlimited EU players. I was not trying to say that NAFTA would govern the league or anything it does.
     
  14. CyphaPSU

    CyphaPSU Member+

    Mar 16, 2003
    Not Far
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If Spanish is the main language of the team, then so be it. I agree that Chivas' idea to reach out to the inner-city youth (particluarly Latino youth) is nobel. I agree that better efforts need be put forward to encourage the growth of soccer in ALL of America.

    I'm not sure I agree with your assertion that the USMNT is "peppered" with Euro-born/Euro-raised guys...you're going to have to explain that one because I just don't see it (unless by Earnie Stewart you mean "peppered").

    Indeed, the USMNT and MLS are dominated by white-suburban players, but it only reflects the demographics of the soccer nation. It's a simple law of numbers that is at play, here...the largest class in terms of numbers who play soccer in this country are the suburban middle class. MLS only reflects this. Albiet, like I stated before, I believe MLS is becoming more diverse and should continue to do so. With that stated, however, I certainly believe that inner-city minorities are at a disadvantage and deserve better opportunities to develop; and I full-heartedly welcome any plans that open up new avenues for inner-city youth soccer development. These kinds of things would go towards melting any walls of segregation that exist now in the current state of American soccer. However, I say that the Chivas USA roster idea is a step backwards, because it sets up a double-standard and encourages institutional segregation. So on one hand, Chivas would be promoting ways to cut against institutional segregation at the grassroots level, and on the other hand it would be re-enforcing it. I see a contradiction there. I just don't believe that forming a team which consists of (or dominated by) one ethnicity is the way to go about things. I believe in diversity, and I believe each team should reflect that.

    I think every MLS club should reach out to their respective communities to develop youth soccer for all, majorities and minorities equally. The problem is that sometimes these things are not implimented equally, and that is something that needs to be worked on.

    The emphasis that MLS needs to take is to develop American soccer everywhere it can in the country. By American, I mean anyone who is a citizen of the United States--poor, middle class, rich, black, white, Latino, Asian-American, or whatever.
     
  15. onefineesq

    onefineesq Member+

    Sep 16, 2003
    Laurel, MD
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think you make a good point. if Chivas intention was to simply go into the urban areas and promote soccer, then great. but if this is only to promote soccer to one group of people, then how is that different from Carlos' classification of suburban white america doing the same thing for themselves. I'm not white either, but to coddle one group of people to the detriment of white America is going to hurt the growth of this game in this country, whether or not we like it. if there were more Africans here, and they tried to pull this, it would be the same thing and even though i'm black, i would feel the same way. I'm not concerned with "my community" getting their way. I'm more concerned with the consistent growth of this league. the only way this league grows is if it catches on someone in mainstream American. if it doesn't, forget games being on tv (which brings in revenue), and forget better players (who will come with more revenue). yes, there will be a slight bump from the latino community from a chivas team being in the league because at this time, Latinos are more concerned about soccer, but the long term success and building of this league is contingent upon Americans feeling like it is THEIR league, not a mexican, kenyan, australian, or any other countries league. Americans, rightly or wrongly, are resentful of that and it will show by the dollars that they keep away from the sport in the longrun.
     
  16. CyphaPSU

    CyphaPSU Member+

    Mar 16, 2003
    Not Far
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I completely agree.
     
  17. American40

    American40 Member

    Jan 9, 2003
    I've been thinking this for a while. Absolutely nothing against Mexican fans, or any latin fans, etc, but I don't think there is THAT big of an untapped market, compared to the rest of America. So, the new team is called 'Chivas'. Most American non-soccer fans like to use one of the reasons is that it is a 'foreign' sport, not an American one. 'Chivas' would be just another reason for them to not even give soccer the slightest of 'trys'. I know that's a simplification, and probably won't, in real 'marketing' terms, have that bad of an effect, but it's a thought that crossed my mind.
     
  18. Quaker

    Quaker Member+

    FC Dallas
    Apr 19, 2000
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well, of course the number of Mexican soccer fans is not that large compared to the number of Americans in the country. But most Americans couldn't give a rip about soccer. However, the number of Mexican soccer fans is large in comparison to the total number of soccer fans in the country.

    This week alone, we saw more people come out to a Tuesday-night Chivas match in San Jose than the Quakes get on most Saturdays. A Wednesday-night Mexico match in Chicago draws more than 40k while the US Open Cup final in NY draws 5k. The Spanish-language broadcasts of the World Cup are viewed by as many or more than the English-language broadcasts in this country. As a share of the soccer fan population, Latino fans are a huge and largely untapped market for MLS.
     
  19. Liverpool_SC

    Liverpool_SC Member

    Jun 28, 2002
    Upstate, SC
    Alternative to "Chivas USA" or "Sand Diego Chivas"

    Why doesn't Vergera compromise from his desire to run a Mexican/Mexican-American team and run a team that "celebrates the historical and emerging contribution of hispanic and latino in the United States". He could call the team Panhispanicos and market it to all of the Spanish-speaking populations in the US. It would attract players from throughout the US and latin America. It would have a strongly hispanic following and roster (just like certain MLB teams have historically had more latinos - Texas Rangers, LA Dodgers, etc) yet preserve a broader Norte Americano appeal.

    It would not need to marginalize the culture of the rest of the US - simply celebrate the contribution of other nations. If you could convince (not easy) a lot of fans from other central american countries to appreciate the team (namely by not linking it too closely to El Tricolores and the Mexican National Team), it could really be something. Maybe Vergera could link it especially with Saprissa as well as Chivas.

    It would seem a lot more acceptable than a team that is centered solely around a nationalistic cause. Plus some of the comments by MFL fans make since. The Chivas brand would be a turnoff to just as many Mexicans as it would be a draw for Chivas fans. But they might go for a "less-affiliated" team that simply celebrated (in a positive sense) latin/hispanic flair.
     
  20. kpaulson

    kpaulson New Member

    Jun 16, 2000
    Washington DC
    That's probably false and that's exactly why all this talk about "including everyone" by excluding a club like Chivas USA rings false.

    Maybe where you're from, yeah, most soccer players are white suburbanites. That's never been my experience.

    And yet MLS draws heavily from the white suburbanite crowd. That's fine. But for whatever reason, it's not attracting Mexicans.

    So, you want to exclude the Chivas plan on the basis that it's exclusive?
     
  21. uclacarlos

    uclacarlos Member+

    Aug 10, 2003
    east coast
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Spain
    It reflects of the demographics of the white bread soccer nation. Kids in the barrios of the Southwest play soccer en masse. It's their favorite sport, hands down. Now, on a large scale, they aren't as large a # as the suburban middle class. But that's not entirely the problem. There is no system set up to get these kids up to the elite levels. Part of the problem is that they play a different style of soccer than the English/Scottish-esque style played in the higher levels. So when a kid (or group of kids) reach high levels w/ a nearby elite club, the skills that they have developed by playing at home do not match up as well w/ a different brand of soccer.

    In most countries, the MNT is comprised of primarily guys from the working classes, even the dirt poor (Brazil, to name one example). In the end, the middle class has options, whereas the lower classes don't.

    The challenge of US Soccer and MLS is to develop a hybrid, creolized uniquely American style of soccer. That's what the powerful nations have all done. Unfortunately, there is a tremendous disjoint in this country between the Latinos and the US "soccer nation".
     
  22. Arturo

    Arturo New Member

    Oct 2, 2002
    Monterrey, Mexico
    I'll just cut-n-paste from something I posted on a diff. thrrad:

    "I don't know the wisdom behind attempting (if they actually do it) to field only mexican-amercan or hispanic players... Race (or racism) is a BIG issue in the US, it really is not at all in Mexico, and I don't think that ChivasUSA owners realize the extent of this issue -they probably don't even understand it or have insight into it- and the possible consequences...(this in response to the dude who already feels discriminated against)
    "

    I can say this... I don't think that if the situation was reversed... where an American team (from US) entered the MFL and wanted ONLY US players or anglo players with mexican citizenship that anyone would actually mind... I think people would actually expect it and welcome it into the competition as the gringo team.. period. But then again Mexico doesn't have the "racial thing".

    Saludos,

    Arturo
     
  23. Pegasus

    Pegasus Member+

    Apr 20, 1999
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Something that concerns me is that Chivas is going to have this pipeline into the barrio's and bring Hispanic inner city talent into the league. So far, great. The part that concerns me is that many of these kids will have at least one Mexican parent. Because of that and their eligibilty to play for two nations after Chivas develops them they will probably try and get them to play for Mexico and not for the US. They would then be using MLS to develop and promote the Mexican national teamers. Why would that be a help for the US in the long run?
     
  24. American40

    American40 Member

    Jan 9, 2003
    I like that word. No, I really do!
     
  25. CyphaPSU

    CyphaPSU Member+

    Mar 16, 2003
    Not Far
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I believe your argument here is categorically flawed.
     

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