Is Barry Bonds Overrated?

Discussion in 'Other Sports' started by Real Ray, Oct 25, 2003.

  1. Real Ray

    Real Ray Member

    May 1, 2000
    Cincinnati, OH
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Perhaps overrated is too harsh, but the other day I was listening to a talkradio show, and one of the hosts noted that, "we have never seen an athlete with an indian summer like Barry Bonds." Which got me thinking about my favorite all-time player, Hank Aaron.

    Look at Aaron's numbers from age 35-39:
    44 97 .300
    38 118 .298
    47 118 .327
    34 77 .265
    40 96 .301

    (41 101 .298)

    Now Bonds from 35-38
    49 106 .306
    73 127 .328
    46 100 .370
    45 90 .341

    (53 105 .336)

    Bonds' numbers are tremendous, and the record year w/73 is off the charts. But if we take into account the difference in eras is the seperation really that great, that it justifies the current view of Bonds? Here's one aspect about eras that puts Aaron's numbers in perspective: in HRs during this period, he ranked in the NL, 2nd, 5th, 2nd, 4th and 4th. Twice he was one HR off the pace; 4, 6, and 7 HRs behind the leader in the three other seasons.

    Bonds' ability to raise his performance at his age, is amazing (we'll assume he is "clean" for the sake of argument). But I think if you make the adjustment for the eras, Aaron's indian summer is right there and does not get enough credit.
     
  2. Fah Que

    Fah Que Member

    Sep 29, 2000
    LA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    There is no way in hell he is clean. No middle aged men can possibly put up that much muscle.
     
  3. BenReilly

    BenReilly New Member

    Apr 8, 2002
    Three letters: OPS.

    Or HR%

    It's not even close.
     
  4. 655321

    655321 New Member

    Jul 21, 2002
    The Mission, SF
    Whether he's better than Hank Aaron or not, he's certainly not overrated. Nobody puts the fear of God into pitchers more than Barry Bonds. Nobody changes an opposing team's game plan more than him. He'll get walked in the eighth inning against a team up by six runs with noone on base. If he didn't play in Pac Bell for half the season, his homerun numbers would be even more through the roof.
     
  5. Cascarino's Pizzeria

    Apr 29, 2001
    New Jersey, USA
    Just like his testosterone numbers going through the roof as he hits middle age.

    He's a fitness fanatic, but science is definitely helping out. Just like McGwire, Sosa & Canseco. Baseball is strangely lax when it comes to serious 'roid testing. They were slow to react to Andro and now with this new drug (THG?) they'll probably "investigate" and the union will fight further testing and it will take 2 yrs. before it's tested for. Sammy was a stringbean when he came out of the Dominican now he can compete for Mr. Universe in the off season. What a joke.
     
  6. Real Ray

    Real Ray Member

    May 1, 2000
    Cincinnati, OH
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: Re: Is Barry Bonds Overrated?

    I'm not sure I agree, as you're not taking into account the different eras they played in-which has to be part of the debate IMO.

    Aaron's OPS for the years I noted:
    1.003
    .953
    1.079
    .904
    1.045

    Bonds:
    1.127
    1.379
    1.381
    1.278

    No questions about Bonds' numbers being better. But if you take into the account the eras, I don't think his 35-39 years create such a large chasm between him and Aaron as people in media like to create. Look at his 1973 season. He starts the year at 673-and all of the crap about catching Ruth starts. What does he do? He goes 40-96-.301. At age 39! He was 2 in Slug.%, 2nd OPS, and 4 in HR. It's common today to see players play at a high level deep into their 30's. But of the past greats, only Williams went this deep into his 30's at such a high level.

    And Aaron only played in 120 games that season, as he had some nagging injuries. Which I think is the huge difference in the eras: The greats of today, with the advantages of training, equipment, medicine (just think of the arthroscope), as well as drugs (?), will fade much slower and put up better numbers-Bonds should still hit 30+ HRs for the next few years, I would think. Not so in Aaron's era.

    Bonds' late 30's are better-but not so much better as the hype sometimes suggests.
     
  7. tpmazembe

    tpmazembe Member

    Jun 13, 2002
    The Midfield (S.Fla)
    Re: Re: Re: Is Barry Bonds Overrated?

    Real, I understand where you are going, but feel your approach is wrong. By your own numbers Bonds is anywhere from 100-300 points better than Hank's OPS in each of those years....that, by baseball standards, is "much" better.

    Within his own era, Bonds this past season was a full 170 OPS pts better than the second best (his 1.278 to Pujol's 1.106), and +400 pts better than the league average -- in a season when he was dealing with the illness and death of his father! Overrated....hardly.

    As far as the insinuations about performance enhancing drugs being made on this thread....which drugs exactly would explain the complete command of the strike zone? Bonds' On Base Percentage of the past 3 years:

    .515
    .582
    .529

    Those numbers are ridiculous in any era, and even more when taken relative to his peers (who are in the norm much younger, and have the same access to the modern training techniques and 'drugs'). Any supposed "enhanced" power would have little impact on OBP.

    Now back to where I think your argument was heading; if you had titled your thread "Why is Hank Aaron Underrated?", you'd get my full support. He is THE most underrated superstar baseball player ever IMO.
     
  8. Real Ray

    Real Ray Member

    May 1, 2000
    Cincinnati, OH
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: Re: Re: Re: Is Barry Bonds Overrated?

    No, in my first post I said his numbers are, "tremendous, and the record year w/73 is off the charts." And I agree that Bonds' number are better.

    What I argue is that people are not making the adjusment for the eras. In OPS for those years, Aaron ranked 2nd, 6th, 1st, 5th, and in that '73 season 2nd. At his age in this era of ball, that's tremendous-look at where his peers, Robinson, Mantle, and Mays were at that time.

    As for the issue of drugs, if he is using (and that is a big if), what they do is allow you to maintain the ability to maintain a high conditioning regime at an advanced age-that is where you can point your finger IMO. In fact McGwire gave us the answer to the value of andro, when he told the press that the reason he used it was that it allowed him to maintain his weight training regime-and that was a crucial part of his game vis-a-vis his performance-power. If there is a reason to wonder about Bonds, it's for the same reason. At his age, recovery time is crucial in maintaing a high level training program-one that goes through a 162 game season. Steriods or other illegal drugs can make a marked difference in area.

    I'm in the camp that he is innocent until proven otherwise. But I'm not naive either.
     
  9. TheSlipperyOne

    TheSlipperyOne Member+

    Feb 29, 2000
    Denver
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Re: Re: Is Barry Bonds Overrated?

    Three letters: THG

    MLB has already said they can't go back and re-test for it from this last season (bullshit). And I'm sure testing for it won't get by the Players Union for quite some time.
     
  10. Fah Que

    Fah Que Member

    Sep 29, 2000
    LA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    I think the players union must re-think the whole philosophy of banning performance enhancement drugs. The reason the rule was in place because not every athletes want to take drugs that harm their body in the long term so they ban those substance to level the playing field. But now you see the benefit of those drugs. They can make athletes super athletes and extend their playing career.

    As a fan, I say let them take drugs. It results in better product on the field so it benefits the fans.

    As far as their health is concerned, I say let them die.
     
  11. BenReilly

    BenReilly New Member

    Apr 8, 2002
    Re: Re: Re: Is Barry Bonds Overrated?

    It's worth noting that Bonds was better than Aaron before he became super-sized.
     
  12. Metros#1

    Metros#1 New Member

    May 14, 2001
    NJ
    Re: Re: Re: Re: Is Barry Bonds Overrated?

    It's also worth noting that despite he's always a great hitter he's far from the most feared power hitter before he became super-sized (which's a mere few years ago for anyone who has a short memory).
     
  13. BenReilly

    BenReilly New Member

    Apr 8, 2002
    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Is Barry Bonds Overrated?

    Very true. But unlike Sosa, Bonds was a slam dunk first ballot HOFer with or without supplements. People shouldn't forget that.
     
  14. otterulz

    otterulz Member

    Arsenal, Atleti
    South Korea
    Jun 20, 2002
    LIC, NY
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Eh, I don't buy the "he's super sized now" excuse. The guy was putting up huge numbers back when he was still a Buc. Not since 91 has he hit less then 30 homers in a season. They walk him for a reason and I think it's a good one.
     
  15. Real Ray

    Real Ray Member

    May 1, 2000
    Cincinnati, OH
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: Re: Re: Re: Is Barry Bonds Overrated?

    Not quite...

    Bonds did not become a truly big-time player until he turned 27. When you compare Bonds age 21-26 to Aaron...it's not even a debate:

    Bonds:
    16-48-.223
    25-59-.261
    24-58-.283
    19-58-.248
    33-114-.301
    25-116-.292


    Aaron:
    27-106.314
    26-92-.328
    44-132-.322
    30-95-.326
    39-123-.355
    40-126-.292
     
  16. Real Ray

    Real Ray Member

    May 1, 2000
    Cincinnati, OH
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    ...which I think underscores the point that the media loses when they describe Bonds last 3 years.

    Aaron at 23 goes 44-132-.322, then 16 years later (in 120 games) goes 40-96-.301. Only Ted Williams can comes close with this type of span-not Bonds, Ruth, Mays, Mantle, DiMaggio..

    Bonds is more dominant-more feared (his walks..unreal) at his age vs Aaron, but the praise he gets for doing what he's done at his age, is overrated IMO-it suffers from how we embrace/promote celebrity today. It's not Bonds' fault, just the nature of media today.
     
  17. BenReilly

    BenReilly New Member

    Apr 8, 2002
    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Is Barry Bonds Overrated?

    You might actually have a point if I argued that Bonds was better than Aaron at aged 23. I merely stated that Bonds was a much better player than Aaron before he became gigantic. That's certainly the case.

    Even in the early 20s, Bonds walked a lot more than Aaron AND was a much better fielder. You're being extremely selective (and silly) with your use of stats.
     
  18. BenReilly

    BenReilly New Member

    Apr 8, 2002
    I can't believe you're saying this. Bonds doesn't get anywhere near the attention he deserves. He's putting up numbers that are Ruthian. His age is actually a side-issue. The man shattered the single-season SLG and OBP records in back to back seasons. The man is vastly more dangerous than Aaron could even dream about. That's precisely why he's walked all the time. Do you realize how many HRs he'd get today if he walked as little as Aaron?
     
  19. Real Ray

    Real Ray Member

    May 1, 2000
    Cincinnati, OH
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don't agree-he is often described as being "Ruthian" these past few seasons. And, I did note that his walks are "unreal."

    I simply disagree about the subject of his his age-it is a major part of this story; how he is going against history in terms of the rise of his performance.

    And no where have I said that Aaron career is better than Bonds-just the start. Bonds will rate higher. My issue is how we view his late 30's historically.
     

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