Is a college education the worst waste in the US?

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by verybdog, Sep 30, 2003.

  1. verybdog

    verybdog New Member

    Jun 29, 2001
    Houyhnhnms
    I think so. College education is a waste for 99% of the population. Why? because 99% of the jobs do not need a college degree to be successful. Just ask your grandma and your grandpa. All you need is a diploma from high school. Everything you need to know can be learned from the on-job-training or self-taught.

    If I were a CEO, one policy I would make in my company is - do not hire a college graduate from 99% of the company's job opennings.

    To conclude, college education is a hype, a deficit, a waste; and college education is useless, unproductive comparing with the its ridiculous cost.
     
  2. dfb547490

    dfb547490 New Member

    Feb 9, 2000
    The Heights
    Honestly, if I didn't have to go to college to be a Navy pilot, I wouldn't be here. And by "have to go to college", I mean you're required to--aside from the basic customs of the Navy, basic stuff you need to know as a Naval officer, which they teach other folks in 13 weeks, I ain't learning anything that's going to help me in a cockpit.

    Can't complain about the cost tho, all of you guys are footing my $30,000 a year tuition bill :D
     
  3. Ian McCracken

    Ian McCracken Member

    May 28, 1999
    USA
    Club:
    SS Lazio Roma
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    I take great joy in knowing that all the pinko commies here (too numerous to name) are shelling out for your education, Alex. Best of luck!
     
  4. mannyfreshstunna

    mannyfreshstunna New Member

    Feb 7, 2003
    Naperville, no less
    Lies. I've become ten times the artist I was in 1 year of college.
     
  5. DoctorJones24

    DoctorJones24 Member

    Aug 26, 1999
    OH
    dog and Alex,
    You both seem to resent the fact that you are being "forced" to learn stuff that "ain't going to help you in the cockpit," as Alex so eloquently put it.

    In a sense, I can understand your cynicism, but I have a far different take on the problem. My feeling is that it's precisely BECAUSE colleges have tried to transform themselves into "career prepatory schools" that students such as yourselves are becoming bored and disgusted with the whole thing. After all, dog is correct when he notes that young employees are going to learn in their first year all the professional skills they need to succeed. But what that says is not that "college" as a whole is useless, but that career specific classes like Marketing 250 or Principles of Sports Management 101 are nothing but time and money wasted. Think about it: such classes do very little, if anything, in fostering Critical Thinking skills, which should be the goal of every class in a college setting. All they do is introduce a few concepts that any English or Psych major could master in their first month on the job as a new marketer/HR person/etc.

    And I don't buy the argument that employers are only looking for newly minted Finance majors, or whatever. I know too many examples of people who were English or History majors, who now are medical doctors, Vice Presidents of Sales/Marketing, or software techs.

    Of course, I really think this is besides the point. College has only recently morphed into being job prep programs, and this has to do with basic capitalist evolution. As great as it was for kids to sit around reading Homer and discussing Ovid for four years, capitalists didn't see much "product" coming out of these very expensive institutions. Words like "efficiency" didn't make much sense in the context of the traditional university, so colleges have been forced to evolve by justifying themselves to industry, courting donors by hiring researchers in fields of commerce, and so on.

    Hopefully, we can agree that the greater goal of college has always been (in its post-Enlightenment form, anyway), and should remain, to foster intellectual growth in the hopes of creating a dynamic and critical self-governing populace. That is, in high school, we fill everyone up with basic info needed to participate on the lowest level in American democracy. But for a mature democracy, we want a larger group of people who are savy readers, communicators, discerning thinkers, and independent judges, so we then offer four years for those full vessels of knowledge to challenge and doubt everything they've learned, so as to better internalize it on a more complex and, let's face it, accurate level. Thus, the thinking goes, (and this is how I'm vaguely remembering the argument from Kant to Newman to even E.D. Hirsch) we'll end up with better democratic citizens as a result.
     
  6. Michael K.

    Michael K. Member

    Mar 3, 1999
    There or Thereabouts
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    Ironically, with his fundamental needs for interpersonal, inter-organizational (and now, no question, intercultural) communication skills, a grasp of different histories and cultures, strong critical thinking abilities, and so on, Today's Military Officer is one of the people that needs higher education the most. What can you say when you have one admitting he wouldn't be in there unless he was being cudgeled into it?

    I will be fair and say I pretty much did think the same thing around 17-18, but one does tend to outgrow that stage.
     
  7. Michael K.

    Michael K. Member

    Mar 3, 1999
    There or Thereabouts
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Wanna know how happy it makes me when I think about how the taxes of certain reactionary wackjobs are fully funding my studies?
     
  8. Garcia

    Garcia Member

    Dec 14, 1999
    Castro Castro
    Re: Re: Is a college education the worst waste in the US?

    Artist?

    We are talking about jobs as related to the degree, not really personal growth. God knows that I loved the college experience and learning in general, but it never really helped get that job. You know, that job you thought you would get.

    I mean, you'd be better off drinking every night with the frat boys and make those networking connections than actually hitting the books at this rate. Face it, even with colleges making the Masters programs user friendly, it doesn't go as far as it used to go. Seeing how their tuition gets inflated each year, I guess it is no surprise to see real "adjusted for inflation" value of the education as nothing compared to back in the day, huh?

    Remember this when you finally find that "soul mate" at school. Her father will not approve of the artist unless he has a real job lined up or if his family is rich. :)

    I agree with dog.
    College: 4...eeerrr...10 years wasted!
     
  9. mannyfreshstunna

    mannyfreshstunna New Member

    Feb 7, 2003
    Naperville, no less
    Re: Re: Re: Is a college education the worst waste in the US?

    Personal growth=me getting better=me being good=increasing my chances to get a job
     
  10. el_urchinio

    el_urchinio Member

    Jun 6, 2002
    Wow, for once, I agree with Manny. I was barely 16 when I graduated high school. I couldn't make toast, let alone hold a real job.

    As the old cliché goes, you don't go to college to get a degree, you go to get an education. I took classes ranging from Medieval History to Anthropology to Music Theory to Irish Literature.

    Yeah, very little of this will be useful with any job I may hold in the next 50 years, but who gives a toss? That's not the point anyway. The point is to make you a well-rounded person. People dissing college haven't experienced it properly.

    I went to U of Oregon and got a degree in English Lit. Useless as hell, but man, in those 4 years, I partied, drank, got laid, read some great books, joined a frat, got arrested, had the time of my life and in the end, in my opinion, emerged a better person.

    Best money my grandparents ever spent.
     
  11. DoctorJones24

    DoctorJones24 Member

    Aug 26, 1999
    OH
    Re: Re: Re: Is a college education the worst waste in the US?

    Why? Who split off the two ideas? dog and Alex say "college is a waste." They never qualified their claims with "IF you understand college to be merely a stepping stone for a high paying job." Now I know many young people actually DO see college that way, but let's at least admit that it's a particular view specific to certain people (vapid, materialistic, souless people, to be sure...), but certain people, nonetheless.

    But can't you see that your post demonstrates how little you know about the history of what universities were designed for and how they've evolved? You keep referring to some "back in the day" when colleges were apparently "worth the money," because they ensured you a top job with a high paying salary. That's simply not what they were designed to do. Granted, with the rise of the many professional majors in the last half of this century, this appears to be the case to today's generation of college students, but it's not true. What we're finding out, IMO, is that it was a dumb attempt at making themselves "accountable" and attractive to capital. But now, even the capitalists are pissed, because they're seeing that their young hires can't read or write on even a basic level. Too many Advertising classes and not enough Aristotle.
     
  12. Sneever Flion

    Sneever Flion New Member

    Oct 29, 2002
    Detroit, MI
    Anytime I come across a job posting that states "Degree Required", I'm reminded of how unimportant a degree is.

    I continue to go to school, not because I believe that there is some pot of gold waiting for me but because I still haven't figured out what I want to be when I grow up.

    As far as the cost is concerned, my company and the government are footing the bill.

    It's my hope that I will become more hireable after I graduate, but at the very least, I've learned things I normally wouldn't go out to.

    I will never consider the college education I am getting a complete waste. Being a 28-year-old non-graduate has taught me that.
     
  13. mannyfreshstunna

    mannyfreshstunna New Member

    Feb 7, 2003
    Naperville, no less
    I'm going to say that college is probably not for everyone. But to say that no one needs it is piffle.
    I for instance know that this is right for me because my skills have dramtically improved. I would never have learned most of these techniques on my own.
     
  14. yellowbismark

    yellowbismark Member+

    Nov 7, 2000
    San Diego, CA
    Club:
    Club Tijuana
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    Agree with exactly what he said.

    College has become a means to an end.

    I switched out of a career based major into an discipline major precisely because I was disappointed with the kind of classes I was being required to take. A move to this day I don't regret. I wanted to college to be a learning experience, and not some hoop to jump through.


    To answer the question of the thread: Is a college education the worst waste in the US?

    For those people who don't want to be there it is. For those who do, it isn't. I would love it if the companies didn't require degrees for jobs. That way those people who don't want to be there will be gone and open up opportunities for those who may appreciate learning more.

    Not only that, but the types of people who don't really want to be there really stink up the college enviornment. Thosee are the people who typically talk during the lecture, cause trouble, engage in stupid activities, who complain, who don't get involved, etc...
     
  15. Deleted USer

    Deleted USer Member+

    Jan 7, 2001
    I loved college, I just hated going to class :D. I loved the socializing aspect of it. I loved the fact that I was in a fraternity and met a lot of great people. The networking was great. The traveling was awsome.

    I went for 2 reasons. 1. it was expected of me because my parents were professionals and 2 I wanted to learn rather than go through some obstacle for some employer.

    From my own personal experiences, college meant a lot different things to a lot of different people. For some, it was expected. It was the thing to do. Others wanted to experience college. Others wanted to become the first graduate in the family. Others just were going thru hula hoops for their employers. I can understand why some think of it as a waste of time. The worse IMO, were the ones that went becuase they thought it guaranteed success.

    Unfortunately, we do live in a cynical world and there are labels. Do I agree with them? No, but I dont make the rules. For every 1 guy that i know that dropped out and started his own business, I know 100 incoming students that are back after 10-15 years finishing it because they cant no longer move up the ladder. Is it fair? No, but that is the way it goes.
     
  16. Sneever Flion

    Sneever Flion New Member

    Oct 29, 2002
    Detroit, MI
    The wage disparities between those who have a degree and those that don't is a fact. Although I'm sure someone here can dig up some statistics to prove otherwise. It would just be S.O.P. for this place.
     
  17. Foosinho

    Foosinho New Member

    Jan 11, 1999
    New Albany, OH
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    True dat. Every time I see "average family income" numbers for suburbs near me I'm shocked - because my sole income is more than the average family income for the "rich" suburb in the area. If my wife gets the federal job she's applying for, in 4 years she'll be making more than me. (Don't feel rich, tho. In fact, feel very very poor. Wonder how people could possibly survive on under 20k a year. Probably not drive a nice car, own a condo, own two horses...)

    As for school, people who think it's a waste, or should be vocational training, probably shouldn't be in school. I had to take some computer science classes for my electrical engineering degree, and that was a real eye-opener for the way most people think in college. This was probably 5 or 6 years ago, prior to the tech bubble burst, when the CIS department at my university had to continually raise the minimum GPA for admittance because there were way to many people trying to get a CIS degree. In the "software engineering" sequence - three classes designed to teach you how to (amazingly) engineer software - nearly 80% of the CIS students were complaining that "we'll never use this language in the real world! Why aren't we learning Java or something!". They were expecting vocational training, and were not getting the value out of the classes they should have (language-independent software engineering techniques, so when Java is replaced by C# or something else they won't be obsolete. You can learn a language's syntax with a reference book, but that reference book can't teach you how to write software.) I was absolutely shocked at how little vision these kids had.

    It's stunning, really. If you want to learn specific job skills, go to a vocational school. If you want an education, go to college.

    BTW, I started school in Mechanical Engineering because I thought it would make me employable. I hated it, and switched to Electrical Engineering. I wish I was doing EE work, but I'm not. That's OK - I had fun in school after the switch, and I like my job. I may not even stick with this career path (software engineering) forever. I have a great degree, in Electrical/Computer Engineering. I can do whatever I want! School was fun, and the degree is a career enabler.
     
  18. Richth76

    Richth76 New Member

    Jul 22, 1999
    Washington, D.C.
    I know if I hadn't gone to college I would probably be some ignorant schmuck working a backhoe somewhere. Maybe that wouldn't be that bad, but I can tell you no CEO is going to not hire college grads. A lot of companies are now trying to improve their intellectual capital by hiring not just college grads, but MBAs for entry-level positions.

    Like others have said college is a place to get an education, find out who you are, and grow up. It's not technical school.

    Graduate school is where you tailor your education to your work.
     
  19. obie

    obie New Member

    Nov 18, 1998
    NY, NY
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    A college education pays off in spades. From the US Dept of Education website (link here):

    For the majority of professional jobs, a college degree is more a signal that you can learn things than what you have actually learned. But that's the employer's problem. Go to college.
     
  20. dfb547490

    dfb547490 New Member

    Feb 9, 2000
    The Heights
    Well, I should clarify. I don't really think college is a waste per se--I just can't see how it's going to help me in my future career. Now, I love college, especially the socializing aspect but I even like most of my classes (I have some very interesting ones such as Chinese Foreign Policy and 20th Century Ireland), but if the Navy came out tomorrow and said you didn't need to be a college grad to be an officer anymore, you can bet I'd go to flight school as soon as I could get a spot. Now, would I go back and get a college degree eventually? Certainly. I have no idea what I want to do after the military, but I'm leaning towards either being a high school teacher or continuing to fly (either for an airline if I get to fly jets for the Navy, or for a police department or a hospital if I fly helos), and I would want to have a degree for those.

    In short, I wouldn't say college is a waste by any stretch of the imagination, just that it's not neccesary for everybody. After 9/11 you can bet your ass I would've been on the first plane to Afghanistan, but you need to be a HS graduate to even enlist in the military. By the time I graduated HS the deal was done in Afghanistan so I went ahead and did the ROTC route. But I still have another 3 years of college plus ~2 years of flight school to go, and I'm still scared there aren't going to be any more al Qaeda left for me to kill when I get out into the Fleet.

    I guess my point is that college is not a waste, but that going to college immediately after high school can be (coughcoughmandatorynationalservicecough).
     
  21. champmanager

    champmanager Member

    Dec 13, 2001
    Alexandria, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    Kazakhstan
    True, true. But as it becomes more or less mandatory to have a degree to get any kind of decent job, theres more and more pressure on kids who have no real interest in the idea of "learning" to go to college, and there are plenty of colleges willing to take their money, water down the curriculum so they can get their piece of paper, and send them off to become real estate agents or surveyors or whatever.

    I'd compare it to profesional sports here and overseas. If you want to be a profesional athlete at 18, go find someone willing to pay you something, anything, for playing sports when you're 18. Don't waste your time and your professors' time pretending you're interested in learning. Of course you can't really make a living when you're 18 or 20 in this country, in sports or in anything else, aside maybe from the building trades.
    Just like in sports, aside from the obvious fields which require academic knowledge (the sciences, law, medicine, etcetera), most employers would be better off hiring 18 year olds as "apprentices". By the time their 21, they'll be way ahead of some college kid with nothing but a piece of sheepskin to his name.
    But until it happens, you're right, go to college.
     
  22. obie

    obie New Member

    Nov 18, 1998
    NY, NY
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If people decide to get a college degree and then take a job that doesn't require one, that's their business. But at age 18 or 19, unless your name is Freddy Adu or LeBron James, you are almost always better off going to college because it keeps your future career options more open.

    And it's not becoming "less mandatory to have a degree to get any kind of decent job", it's becoming more mandatory. More than ever, jobs that previously required a bachelor's degree now require a Master's because companies have gotten more selective about their skilled workforce (one of the corporate advantages of a tight labor market). And, national earnings differences have increased over time, not decreased, as salaried employees have gotten virtually all of the annual income increases over the past 25 years. Hourly employees are doing worse than they were two decades ago on an inflation-adjusted basis.

    The number of people who can make a decent living without a college degree is far, far outstripped by the number who cannot. We are not a nation of professional athletes, rap stars, and teenage technology savants.
     
  23. Demosthenes

    Demosthenes Member+

    May 12, 2003
    Berkeley, CA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If a company's job listing didn't state 'bacherlors degree required,' they'd be lucky if they got any applicants who were actually literate.
     
  24. Blitzz Boy

    Blitzz Boy Member

    Apr 4, 2002
    The West Side
    Don't worry. When a Democrat is elected in 2004, along with a Democratic congress; there will probably be some nice aspirin factories in Sudan you can waste.

    If Democrats start handing out pork barrel defense contracts like Republicans do, your plane will probably be made in a safe Democratic district; by unionized employees whose union dues reliably go to Democratic candidates.


    You are advocating an expansion in the size and scope of government. You will have to go back to Remedial Conservative School, along with a certain other guy who thinks that high tariffs on steel, unchecked police powers, pork barrel spending and illegal wars are a good idea.
     
  25. CosmosKramer

    CosmosKramer Member

    Sep 24, 2000
    Yokohama
    Club:
    Yokohama F Marinos
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Colleges and lenders are in cahoots.

    In order to get a good job you must go to college. To go to college you need a loan. Since loans for students are easily attainable and people must go to school to work - colleges can raise the tuition, year after year. So students need to get bigger student loans and are in deeper and deeper debt upon graduation.

    Furthermore, this must have an impact on the types of careers chosen by professionals. For example, if your fresh out of law school with tremendous debt, are you more likely be a ambulance chasing, personal injury lawyer or a public defender?
     

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