Iranian President a hostage taker?

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by Yankee_Blue, Jun 29, 2005.

  1. topcatcole

    topcatcole BigSoccer Supporter

    Apr 26, 2003
    Washington DC
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Are you quoting yourself? Even I don't have such an exalted opinion of my own views. BTW, where have I expressed support for the Shah?

    Well, there is the little practical problem that the people giving these orders are DEAD among other things. You might like to look up "Eisenhower, Dwight David" or "Dulles, Allan". The subsequent support was to a regional ally who, as far as I know, did not violate international law. The "students" that invaded the embassy and held hostages because the Shah was in a hospital for treatment in the US did. They should be held accountable.

    You are between such a rock and a hard place.

    On the one hand, you can maintain that the "students" acted without the knowledge and support of the government. In that case, even in as pathetic of an excuse for a civilization as Iran is, kidnapping is a crime and they should be prosecuted.

    If, on the other hand, they did it with the concurrence of the government, not only are they criminals but the government has sanctioned an attack on a sovereign government, which is an act of war.

    So which was it? (Not that you have the guts to answer)
     
  2. eric_appleby

    eric_appleby Member+

    Jun 11, 1999
    Down East
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don't think it's him.
    Why would he deny it?
    You would think it would have been the centerpiece of his campaign.

    Concerning his desire to export Islamic revolution. I don't recommend it.
    It could get unhealthy.
     
  3. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    Well, an apology from the US Government would be a good start towards accountability. I don't think it's quite dead yet.

    Ah I see. So supporting a corrupt regime that tortured Iranians is ok because they didn't break International law, but taking people hostage is not ok because it breaks International law. Count me as underwhelmed by your argument.

    Strange, I never expressed an opinion about the students, so all this blather is quite irrelevant. My point was your seeming total amnesia regarding the conduct of the US towards Iran pre-79 in contrast to your vigor at bringing the students to justice.
     
  4. topcatcole

    topcatcole BigSoccer Supporter

    Apr 26, 2003
    Washington DC
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Oh boo-hoo, we never apologized. Your "the CIA was bad" rhetoric is weak. Get the hell out of here.

    I didn't think you'd understand. I'm trying to use really small words to help you. Have you ever heard of the Cold War? Get a history book (not the kind that comes with crayons) or go to http;//www.google.com and when the little box comes up, type in "cold war iran usa" and see what shows up.

    What a pathetic attempt at evasion. I knew you wouldn't have the guts to answer. Your point is very clearly that their taking of hostages was justified by previous "bad acts" of the American government. Well, that's OK for you since you seem to think the US ought to apologize for everything that ever happens in the world. That attitude makes me sick- so go off with your whiney, apologetic friends because that POV will be called for what it is here.
     
  5. Txtriathlete

    Txtriathlete Member

    Aug 6, 2004
    The American Empire
    That has got to be the funniest line in this thread. Demanded? tehehe
     
  6. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    Well, I don't know of any other way to describe the CIA's involvement in the coup of '53 and its subsequent propping up of a corrupt and butal regime. Strange how you aren't bothered by it given that it was most certainly against international laws that you seem so exercized by with regards to the hostage crisis.

    Ah, I see. So illegally overthrowing a democratically elected government and subjugating Iran to the Shah's regime for 25 years is ok 'cos it was part of the Cold War. Er, ok. And of course oil had nothi ng to do with it either.

    Btw, a shame you can't argue without resorting to insults.

    Not at all. I just don't see how you can rationally look at what happened in '79 while being so oblivious to the US's impact on Iran was between '53 and '79. Not defending what happened in '79 but calling for 'accountability' for it in isolation is just plain silly.

    http://www.iranchamber.com/history/coup53/coup53p1.php
     
  7. VFish

    VFish Member+

    Jan 7, 2001
    Atlanta, GA
    Club:
    Atlanta
    While you're at it, perhaps you can coax an apology from your own government for their meddling role in the region.
     
  8. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    Well, I can only vote in US elections, but that's a fair point. Both the US and Britain acted shamefully in '53.
     
  9. topcatcole

    topcatcole BigSoccer Supporter

    Apr 26, 2003
    Washington DC
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Covered before- nothing new here.

    Covered before- nothing new here.

    I was trying to help. Reading comprehension doesn't seem to be your strong point.

    Covered before- nothing new here.
    Why don't you go on back to your US-bashing, whiney, sniveling apologetic friends now. I'm sure they will welcome you with open arms.
     
  10. Iranian Monitor

    Iranian Monitor Member+

    Aug 18, 2004
    Nat'l Team:
    Iran
    I think I have answered this question many times, but for someone to say I have "IM" on "ignore", and then ask the same question over and over again, becomes kind of tedious. Especially when another guy who has read this answer can't get it through his thick skull.

    I have numerous family members in Iran. My parents are both US citizens, but my dad lives in Iran, having returned to Iran a few years ago. He visits the US regularly. My mom lives part of the year in the US, but spends at least a few months each year in Iran. I have uncles, cousins, and other relatives who live in Iran, and others who are US citizens and travel between the two countries. My story is not unique; if you live in LA, this is somewhat a typical story. Indeed, each time I go to the airport to pick up or to drop off my parents on their way to or from Iran, I see the thousands of Iranians who make the same trip back and forth.

    My father has encouraged me to move back to Iran ever since going there. Since I had gone through my own relationship and divorce issues, I was thinking about it seriously. Indeed, I finally made that decision a few months ago and will be in Iran before October.

    My own view is that the country that I once saw mostly in positive light, which I didn't feel deserved the animosity and blame many Iranians felt it deserved, has lost its way. When Hilary Clinton talked about a "vast right wing conspiracy" as her husband was being accused left and right of all sorts of ridiculous things, many (including me) thought she had gone overboard with the language. But as I have come to see the connections between certain groups, and the vast networks that operates using the same tactics (only much worse when dealing with a foreign country where there is no one to correct them), I believe what Hilary Clinton mentioned was only the tip of the iceburg.

    The swift boat ads serve as their modus vivendi. Again, when it comes to domestic politics, they have to tread a bit more carefully, and can't come up with the exact same bold face lies they do when the object of their campaign is foreign and has no one to speak for it here. But the general tactics is to have their army of propagandists and liars fill the airways and media with lies and accusations, while those in more "respected" or "official" positions take advantage by using more careful language.

    In this process, America has lost being the kind of country which I once believed it was. Today, the "market place" of ideas that once made sure lies were not so popular, has become the market place of propaganda. Truth has become a rare commodity in this market place, and I can help but think the US will be much worse for it.
     
  11. topcatcole

    topcatcole BigSoccer Supporter

    Apr 26, 2003
    Washington DC
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    But your apoplexy is directed only at the US- why is that?
     
  12. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    Because the issue at hand was your desire to see accountability for the hostage takers in '79. Funnily enough, the hostages were American, not British, and thus the US's conduct prior to '79 is what was relevant to the discussion, not Britain's.
     
  13. VFish

    VFish Member+

    Jan 7, 2001
    Atlanta, GA
    Club:
    Atlanta
    Congratulations! I hope Ahmadinejad builds the Islamic utopia you seek.
     
  14. topcatcole

    topcatcole BigSoccer Supporter

    Apr 26, 2003
    Washington DC
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Oh, I see. So since the "students" commited crimes that you find funny against America and not Britain, that's OK. I have a few friends who would like to explain to you just how "funny" that was. Some of them are even Iranian.

    Get it straight. It is never OK to invade an embassy and hold the diplomatic personnel as hostages. Hide behind your "but you guys did mean things too" BS all you want. It is contrary to international law. It is an assault on the nation. You would feel the same if whatever country (if any) you hold any allegiance to were attacked.
     
  15. Iranian Monitor

    Iranian Monitor Member+

    Aug 18, 2004
    Nat'l Team:
    Iran
    I am not looking for utopia, Islamic or otherwise.

    On a personal level, people who would benefit the most from a US-Iran reapproachment are people like me. I could make a killing financially if the doors to Iran-US trade were opened.

    I was also quite concerned when it semeed Ahamdinejad might win the election. I had already taken some irreversible steps in preparation of returning to Iran and if Ahmadinejad was anything like the carricature of him, I would not be able to live there. I am neither religious nor interested in pretending to be.

    The safe bet for someone like me was for anyone but Ahmadinejad to win. I would not have to worry about the possibility of any drastic changes, especially the kind that I would not welcome. That said, at the end, I guess I believe truth and fairness is a virtue in and of itself. When I began listening to what Ahmadinejad had to say, I felt ashamed that I had said some of the things about him that I had. He may not have the right ideas for Iran, but he is nothing like the carricature of him. Either that, or he is the best politician ever, since while I don't expect him to be able to do many of the things he mentioned, he at no point appeared to be a religious zealot. Indeed, in some ways, he was more liberal than our most liberal reformists!
     
  16. VFish

    VFish Member+

    Jan 7, 2001
    Atlanta, GA
    Club:
    Atlanta
    Must have been what earned him the nickname of the 'Iranian Tailban' while mayor. Anyway, adios my apologetic Iranian amigo. I hope we all find peace and happiness.
     
  17. Iranian Monitor

    Iranian Monitor Member+

    Aug 18, 2004
    Nat'l Team:
    Iran
    Political mud slinging is not an exclusive preserve of the US.

    If he was the "Iranian Taleban", Tehran would not be the city it has been the past few years.

    A few days ago, in an interview with an Iranian satellite station in Germany, Ahmadinejad's cultural advisor said things that seemed surreal even for the most liberal Iranians. I know for a fact that the guy was being overly optimistic and saying things that cannot be true for many years in Iran.

    But here is a sample of what "Kalhour" said about Ahamdinejad's administration:

    1) Iranian pop musicians in the West should return to Iran and work in Iran instead. That many countries make as much money from music as Iran makes from its oil income. Dr. Ahamdinejad favors musicians, like all other professionals, having protection to practice their trade. That includes female musicians.

    2) Regarding Hejab, Dr. Ahmadinjead is against any government imposition in personal choices people make. Indeed, history shows that when you try to impose one kind of fashion, a culture resists and often does the exact opposite.

    3) Regarding political dissent, Dr. Ahmadinejad considers freedom of speech to be a guarantee born from Islamic law and tradition. While we live in a country where some believe you should not criticise the Supreme Leader, at the time of the prophet and the saint Imam Ali, people who disagreed with them were free to voice their disagreement.

    I I don't expect that Dr. Ahmadinejad could pursue as liberal a stance as his cultural advisor mentioned, since after the interview a couple of MPs started yelling out slogans against this kind of talk, but ultimately as he was at pains to mention himself: it is an insult to the presidency to think that the president of Iran has no more important issues to worry about than what people choose to wear! The problem of the people of Iran is about the economy, housing, unemployment, not their clothing!
     
  18. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    Wow, talk about spectacularly missing the point. Exactly how do you divine that I find it 'funny' that the students committed crimes against America. You do understand what the phrase "funnily enough" means - and what it was referring to - don't you?

    And get this straight. It is never OK to overthrow a democratic government and it's never OK to prop up a regime like the shah's that perpetrated human rights abuses against its peop,e for a quarter of a century. Quite honestly, the hostage taking pales into relative insignificance compared to what Iran had to put up with in the previous 25 years. And before you start screaming, that does not mean that I condone what those students did. But I'll say it again. The idea that they should be brought to account whilst the actions of the United States in the previous 25 are not is quite preposterous.
     
  19. topcatcole

    topcatcole BigSoccer Supporter

    Apr 26, 2003
    Washington DC
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You're an idiot if you think hostage taking is insignificant. You obviously find it difficult to read, and your slimy, whiny protestations aside, you are justifying their actions just as surely as if you were one of them. Good-bye.
     
  20. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    Which of course I didn't say. Anyone who doesn't know the difference between a relative and an absolute is going to make a fool of themselves, like you just did.
     
  21. Ian McCracken

    Ian McCracken Member

    May 28, 1999
    USA
    Club:
    SS Lazio Roma
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    Sounds like a swell fellow, this Dr. Ahmadinejad. But, were those comments made before or after he declared a worldwide Islamic revolution?

    "The wave of the Islamic revolution will soon reach the entire world," Ahmadinejad said. "In one night, the martyrs strode down a path of 100 years."

    "Thanks to the blood of the martyrs, a new Islamic revolution has arisen and the Islamic revolution of 1384 [the current Iranian year] will, if God wills, cut off the roots of injustice in the world," Ahmadinejad was quoted by the official Iranian news agency as saying. "The era of oppression, hegemonic regimes, tyranny and injustice has reached its end."

    The speech marked the first time since the late 1980s that an Iranian president vowed to export Islamic insurgency throughout the world. Allies of Ahmadinejad said the president-elect, who takes office in August, would seek to revive the principles of the Islamic revolution in 1978. They said Ahmadinejad would also seek to impose Islamic behavior in public, including strict enforcement of a dress code.

    "Islamic and revolutionary culture have been neglected in the past years," Iranian parliamentarian Mohammad Taqi Rahbar said.
     
  22. Scarecrow

    Scarecrow Red Card

    Feb 13, 2004
    Chicago
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Hey now, only the Sith deal in absolutes and we are not talking about the Sith. Those guys have been getting a bad rap for 25 years. [​IMG]
     
  23. DamonEsquire

    DamonEsquire BigSoccer Supporter

    Sep 16, 2002
    Kentucky
    Club:
    Leeds United AFC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  24. Iranian Monitor

    Iranian Monitor Member+

    Aug 18, 2004
    Nat'l Team:
    Iran
    The issue about Iran's president is not whether his ideology and policies will sit well with the US? They will not. But the protrayal of him as a religious zealot, at least based on the interviews and comments I saw of him, did not appear accurate. That said, I still need to see what he actually does in office, and what kind of cabinet he selects. I am not prepared to make a definite judgment about him either way until I see and learn more.

    In the meantime, here are some pictures of just one of his campaign stops in Isfahan, where he was greeted by large crowds. Politics in Iran, lets say, is a bit more enthusiastic than in the US!

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  25. JBigjake

    JBigjake Member+

    Nov 16, 2003
    Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.
     

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