Pre-match: International Friendly: USMNT vs El Salvador; December 9th

Berhalter is actually doing a very good job as a general manager. Hopefully, his work as a head coach catches up.

 

So ... do players who played in MLS for several years especially recently count as MLS once they move to Europe or not? Does it matter how many years removed they are or not? Myself I don't understand the all or nothiness to these questions. MLS had a part in how they turned out as did any clubs after they moved on. No hiding or embellishing. Just say which teams including MLS they played for and how long as well as any other teams and how long.

 

Maybe. In the current starting 11, only Adams, and Miazga have MLS roots. Stephen went to Germany first before coming to MLS. I don't believe Reyna played for New York FC. For our bench is going to be anyone's guess.

 

I think if they started in MLS 1st team they should be counted as MLSers no matter where abroad they are currently playing.

 

Maximizing MLS content would be something like:

Guzan
Turner/Hamid/Johnson
Long
Zimmerman
Bello
Morris
Yueill
Lletget
Zardes
Jozy

 

So you’re defining MLS roots as playing their initial professional minutes in MLS?

I think that’s a pretty restrictive definition.

McKennie didn’t play for FC Dallas but he was in their academy for many years. Same with Reyna and NYCFC.

Steffen went abroad, didn’t have success, came to MLS and established himself as a starter for the USMNT and a player ManCity would spend millions on. I think MLS deserves some credit there.

And while other players may lap in him in time, I think Jordan Morris has a case for our best XI. Musah’s addition complicates that, but he hasn’t committed yet.

 

Yep, the only reason to be massively upset with 7-8 MLS players on the roster is just bias.

GK: Seems like a good chance the 3rd GK at minimum is from MLS. Maybe even the backup if Horvath never plays another game. Let's call it 1+.

CB: We have one of 4+ locked. For the other three slots, there's only 3 European options being considered, it seems, with Ream aging, Miazga looking like November was his last chance to impress and failing, and Richards very young. Would anyone be shocked if 2 CBs came from MLS? It's also likely a player like McKenzie goes to Europe or EPB suddenly takes a step forward ... but it wouldn't shock me to see Walker Zimmerman and someone else.

FB: Is there even a backup LB in Europe? RB seems highly improbably, but I'd have to imagine there's a really good chance that if we carry a second LB, they are from MLS at this point. Maybe a 50/50 shot here?

CM: Six slots, and I'd suspect that MLS is gunning for 1-2 of them. We don't have a backup 6 yet -- Johnny or Otasowie need to take big steps forward -- and I suspect that players like Lletget or Pomykal (who may still be in MLS) will be in the running for backup 8. I think there's a decent chance there's only 1 MLS player here and maybe not that, but I will call it 1.

Winger: Morris is very, very likely to be on the roster. I think it's less likely to see Mueller or one of the other MLS based players, so I will stick with 1.

Striker: We could bring 2-3 and I'd say MLS is in the lead for all but Sargent's spot. Soto and Gioachinni looked pretty good versus Panama B in Austria, but it was Panama B in Austria. Given we may only take two strikers, and I don't want to cause a panic ... .5 players here.

So... 1+2+.5+1+1+.5 = 6 and that's with me being pretty conservative. Seven doesn't seem off.

If all goes right with the youth -- McKenzie explodes, goes to Europe; Pomykal is healthy, goes to Europe; Soto breaks through; Musah joins us; Horvath starts playing again; etc. then it could be as low as 3 or something.

But being angry about 7 takes some pretty heavy bias. Ethan Horvath has played like 2 games in 2 years -- if he was in MLS, people wouldn't even remember him. Matt Miazga just played two poor games against two poor offensive teams; I'm not sure anyone should be putting him and Ream both on a roster quite yet. Some of the kids looked good but the only one who really locked everything in for me was Musah.

Hopefully, we see leaps and bounds the next two years from young players. But development is rarely linear.

 

Claiming Steffen -- who without MLS is probably hanging with Ethan Horvath -- does not have MLS roots despite going to the Union Academy until he was 18 and then coming back to MLS to actually establish himself...

It's just hard to take people's opinion seriously when they make so many machinations to keep even the tiniest of credit away from MLS.

Steffen, McKennie, Adams, CB #2 in all cases, Reyna, and Morris all have pretty decent MLS roots, with Reyna being the one guy with probably minimal credit.

It's a weird, desperate attempt to constantly try to minimize the impact when most development paths have a number of stops.

 

Fair point, but let's take Steffen's case he may have had limited minutes in SC Freiburg in Germany but that was where his professional training started. MLS gave him the minutes to prove himself but his core training was with Germans.

I think we should pay close attention to how GB will determine field player roster selection between numbers 15-20. Is he going to select based on professional minutes in MLS or professional quality with limited minutes at big clubs?

I'll give you an early test, who is better, Paul Ariola at DC United (pre-injury) or Konrad DeLa Fuente at Barcelona?

 

Pre-injury Arriola is a better player from everything I've seen in international competition. Konrad didn't look ready against Wales, and while Arriola's finishing is a constant frustration, he's got a lot up on Konrad.

That may not be true in two years; Arriola isn't likely to improve even if he comes back from the injury whole and Konrad is at an age where improvement is likely. Konrad has ball skills that Arriola envies but he's got to make up the rest.

 

I don't know if I agree with that. Steffen was a US Development academy guy, spent 5 years with FC Delco and also time with the Union. Signed in Germany after a couple years in college at Maryland. He only spent a couple years in Germany before coming back to the states.

When Paul Arriola was a regular starter for the national team, he always was the guy I most wanted to upgrade from. He's a hard worker and is usually in the right place but he just was lacking in the final product.

That being said if we had an important qualifer tomorrow and pre-injury Arriola was available? I would probably take him over Konrad.

Konrad just hasn't shown to me for club or country yet to indicate he is ready yet. He very well could be ready soon. So if we had a friendly, Nations League or even the Gold Cup? In those circumstances I would take him over a pre-injury Arriola, because I want our young players to get opportunities to be tested.

Similarly if there were a qualifier tomorrow, I would take Miazga, Zimmerman, McKenzie or even Long over Richards at this point. But I want to see Richards in friendlies, absolutely.

Having young players getting limited minutes for a top team is very exciting. We have lots of players like Richards and Konrad who have high ceilings. But unless the really impress and win the job during upcoming national team games, I wouldn't trust them when qualification is on the line. Not until they prove more at the club level.

We've had lots of players who ride the bench of big clubs (Boyd, Green, Zelalem, etc) who don't end up amounting to much. Someone needs more than a just big club next to their name.

 

Do you mean bias toward better players with significantly higher ceilings?

GK (1) - no reason the third goalkeeper can't be from MLS, but it could gk to a young euro based guy.

OB (1?) - I dont see any MLS based player ahead of the three from the last camp. That last spot likely goes to a younger player. Bello, Kobe, Reynolds, Gloster, Araujo, etc. Id guess if it is one of the current MLS guys, there is a good chance they will have moved abroad.

CB (1?) - Brooks and Miazga are the obvious starters to me. I still don't know why people consider Long after his rough outings in 2019... it is really odd that you ignore that and claim Miazga just had two bad games. He wasnt good against Panama (those were generally multiple player break downs and had to partner with Ream), but thought he was fine against Wales and critical to us possessing the ball. I've never been a fan of Zimmerman and skeptical of the hype he has gotten for his MLS play this year, but didnt watch. Mckenzie is supposedly moving abroad. I can easily see it as one of Mckenzie, CCV, and EPB along with Richards.

CM (0) - Adams, Mckennie, and Musah seems pretty set. Johnny, Otosowi, and Ledezma all looked decent and are on the rise. I easily take Johnny, Holmes, and Otasowi over guys like Letget or Pomykal. Lletget is limited and no way we can press the same way with him. Pomykal hasn't shown he can contribute at the international level and injuries has slowed his progress. A player like Ledezma is definitely needed on. The side. Reyna could still be dropped into midfield if Musah doesn't commit or they wanted to swap the two roles.

F (2?) - I combined the front three because many of the players can play across all the positions. I think Morris is the only real option here. After pulisic, sargent, reyna, a second MLS guy would mean only one of Weah, Llanez, de la fuente, Gioacchini, Soto, etc.

I see the more realistic number to be more like 2 to 5 MLS guys and i would lean towards the lower end of that range.

The young euro based guys need to continue to improve, but so do the MLS guys and players like Lletget, Yeuill, and Bradley are way off the talent level of the rest of the team. The number of quality prospects we have makes me confident that enough of them will come good in the next two years that those lower quality "veterans" won't be needed.

 

lol

ps - I get the feeling this camp is about Olympics which is on schedule, I believe?

 

Agreement. I mean, do we count Cristiano Ronaldo as a domestic Portuguese player because he got his first minutes with Sporting CP? Lewandowski played a bunch of seasons as a domestic Polish player before Dortmund snapped him up, etc.

 

This really doesn’t matter does it? Any club that touches a player from U-littles to MLS to European clubs should share in the success. The real reason so many players are making it from the US now is there are real academies getting to our young players and providing a solid skill foundation. From there MLS or Europe can finish off the process. The shear number of young players funneling through this system will keep increasing our numbers at the top.

 

Every nation we claim to respect develops most of their own players & almost all initially cap them out of their domestic league. We should start embracing our evolution in this regard to join all the other functional systems instead of grandfathering in a negative perception we can't do it like them because we play soccerball instead.

European scouts have taken notice, yet a large & vocal section of our fan base ironically are behind them in the trend. Maybe you'll be provided comfort once those moves for millions are actually made after starting as pro in the US first division instead of second or lower. Then sitting on a bigger club's bench or starting for Hobro can provide you with the crucial info you need.

 

I'd be interested to see what percentage of players in countries of "high second tier" leagues see their first players capped while in their home domestic league. For example, it would be interesting to see what players in countries like Argentina, Mexico, the Netherlands, and France see players capped playing in those leagues compared to first caps coming in a "Big 5" league. Maybe players from Argentina and Brazil see first caps after they make a top league simply because the quantity of very talented players is so high.

In the case of the US, I do think a lot of first caps will still come with MLS teams because of the January camp and some of the restrictions European teams place on younger teams.

 

I've researched the Nordic countries:

Sweden - a good majority of their initial caps come out of the domestic league.
Norway - about the same as Sweden.
Denmark - around half

Denmark is 13th in the world. Sweden is 20th & made the quarters of the WC. Norway is 29th & really on the rise like the US.

They also are capping out of worse to as good of leagues as the US. They aren't among the top national teams, but never were expected to be w/ their population, weather, and athletic talent. Actually are punching above their weight.

The aspiration is to evolve into Brasil eventually. They have a better domestic league, but not among the best, and it's still well ahead of the US' since their talent at home + abroad is superior (they aren't capping academy players). Yet they have a tradition of capping around half their players initially out of the domestic league. Hell, they had a few 30+ yr olds who'd never played above Brasil on their last qualifying roster. One would have been making their nat'l team debut.

 

Denmark's '18 WC team had an impressive 15 players on Top-5 teams. Too bad they ran into Croatia in the R16--still took 'em to pks, though.

 

Absolutely,he turned into a multi-million dollar teen in Portugal.

 

Always interesting when an MLS fan makes an argument that we should do something because it is the way the rest of the world does. It usually is something that helps MLS and/or optically makes the league look better. Of course they only want to follow what the rest of the world. They aren't for following the rest of the world in many important ways that would improve the game in this country.

The idea of more first caps coming for MLS players is just an odd one. Any decent American player in MLS gets cappped in at least a january camp. It seems the argument is that more American players should start their careers in MLS which there is really no track record for supporting such an argument for maximizing the talent of out pool. Less than a handful of MLS lifers have made a significant impact at thei jnternational level. The same is true for MLS clubs selling players they have developed as kids to big be successful in top leagues. It looks like interest in MLS players is increasing and better opportunities are emerging for what looks to be better young players. Yet, it is still to early to declare victory like MLS fans continue to do after every small success. Nobody is behind euro scouts. I am not sure there is a trend yet and if there is, it is just starting.

As a usmnt fan, I have alwaays wanted our players to get into the best environments to help them reach their potential. I have similarly wanted the players selecriin to be the best players that make the best team irregardless of where they play. It is great that the majority of our top young players understand that the best environment for them is in Europe. Given these choices it seems really odd to suggest more selctions from MLS than the top euro players.

What is often missed by MLS fans is the decisions that c4iticize and complain about are the reasons that MLS has upped their game and giv we n more kids minutes. The whining about Mckennie leaving and FCD getting. Kthing were extremely loud, but that and many others leaving is really why we are seeeing improvements. The league hates competition but it has been responsible for many of its improvements.

What I find great about the exodus of young talented players abroad is that some of the kids in other nations are copying. England is a country that has had com ppl aints about being friendly to youth players and all of a sudden they start having their kids going to Germany and Spain.

 

That's the end of the process & about where we realistically aspire to be in the WC this cycle.

But right now we're still at the point of putting unideal player earlier in their careers on the conveyer belt there or to the national team.

So earlier in the cycle they'll get a considerably higher percentage of the caps. Some want to pretend like players have made it already by foisting upon us academy kids & pine riders in top five leagues.

A lot of our MLS or 2nd tier league players have simply proven more for club & country at this point. And they're clearly good enough to qualify comfortably in CONCACAF if we mine enough of them, unlike last cycle when Morris & Lletget got injured but we didn't have a few more sets to replace them.

 

It was always one match. There was never a rumour of more than one.
One match in December.
One match in January (perhaps vs Guatemala).

 

Paul Ariola pre-injury is a better player than KDLF is right now, full stop. I’m very confident that KDLF will become a better player than that version of Ariola in the relatively near future.