Pre-match: International Friendly: USA vs Mexico; September 6th

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by Sebsasour, Jul 8, 2019.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. gunnerfan7

    gunnerfan7 Member+

    SJ Earthquakes/Arsenal
    United States
    Jul 22, 2012
    Pleasanton, California
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    He had a bad game against Ukraine, but on the other hand, he's starting for Ajax, and hasn't given up goals due to his negligence, on the left side of the field, in an admittedly limited sample size.

    As to the suggestion that a highly talented defender (in one of the best development teams in the world) is actually bad at defending, I'll take the word of Ajax over your, often extreme, takes.
     
    Patrick167 and yurch10 repped this.
  2. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    Call it what you like. He had a mistake or two over the five or six games I've seen. And I've seen him lock down someone like Lainez, which is a strong plus.

    From an overall evaluation, I don't think he's a weak defender. He has weaknesses, but so do most of our RB options.

    Certainly not something that would keep me from calling him in right now.
     
  3. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    Pity FJ is 31 and injury prone.
     
  4. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    I love Fabian Johnson. But I can't see him playing LB or LM at 34.

    And I'm curious if he'd play LB in qualifying; I'd actually rather give Weah and other younger attackers at shot at winger even if Johnson is better now (and I'm not sure he is).
     
  5. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    i don't even come close to seeing how continuation of a squad that finished second at GC is our best course to qualification. for a team still not getting good results it is strange and counter-factual to suggest our best course is lock the team in now.

    at a certain point which we are well past, all this playing to win sh*t is basically hyper conservatism of selection. i am looking at several players who don't belong on a qualification round team that objectively need to be "moved." we can do that now based on competition or we can do that during qualifying when we start getting results you will finally admit are challenging.

    i would rather have my position contests now than later. i would rather not be trying to decide who plays DM and back -- like last cycle -- during qualifying itself, because i convinced myself now that i had enough of the right people in tow.

    the risks of optimism now followed by dirty diapers during the games that count should be obvious as they are literally what we just dealt with.

    people have lost their minds.
     
  6. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    i cannot believe we are even entertaining this lame debate. the dude would be almost 35 (he has a late birthday in the year) by the time we would play in qatar. the last period he was on the team we didn't get results and he was subbed out in overtime in a playoff game when we needed a goal.

    just the right combination of "youth" and "performance." oh, but he has a lofty B.1 perch so let's chat about bringing back ageing locker room cancer ad infinitum. doesn't matter what they do for the USA every time, it's the abstraction of pretending their club play translates!

    i would not be surprised in the slightest if this happens because we are on a horrifying nostalgia kick still. we confuse trying to relive successes that are now 5 years stale with putting together a team to win the next decade. heck, there are people who want to bring beasley back. sure works for houston.

    at least one big difference between us and mexico is i feel like they are investing in and pushing along their young talent and we are trying to milk a "masters" team to one more tournament after missing the last.
     
  7. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    it's basically yedlin redux. we pretend we get offense to offset the defense.

    to me he is a classic dutch defender with all that implies.

    have at it.
     
  8. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    we lack the brains to bring in these guys -- and wood -- and fight against how their coaches treat them. the summer would have been perfect. 5-6 weeks we had i am sure you could run them into shape and sharpness and see what they had at their high end.

    we actually used to do this often. bring in x and get them some games. nor have we ever punished the big games for more than one date for disuse.

    weah right now is splitting starts and subs which is no different from pulisic or anyone else. i think you're stuck in last year.

    at any point we want we can start making our own talent eval and not making scouting assessments based on how another team handles them. to me any idiot can manage a team by treating his players like their club team does. it requires actual effort (i think this concept is lazy) to discern talent for yourself.
     
  9. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    Please point out where people have said we should bring in the exact same squad.
     
  10. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    it's actually a perfect pair of games for experiments. games don't count. international date where they can't say no. leave some marginal MLS home "for the stretch" and bring their international competition. if their competition excel, forget their phone numbers.

    heck, our LoN schedule is soft too. i don't get why people are so scared of cuba and canada we have to basically go "world cup mode" now. panic city.
     
  11. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    Who are your RB and LB options?
     
  12. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    i said "continuation" and you twisted that into "exact." if you want a response you can fairly construe what i say in the terms i said it.
     
    DHC1 repped this.
  13. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    oh, i'm so scared, you have put me in my place.

    RB: M. Robinson Cannon Lima Moore Adams

    the middle two sufficed just fine for GC

    they all can defend and aren't that big of attacking slouches

    Yedlin has allowed 2 equalizers in a year, and other than a throwaway cap tie sub i have no urge to fast track his replicant.

    come back when you can defend, son.

    LB: Lichaj Laursen Payne

    I would also like to see Richards and/or McKennie tried as wingbacks

    if Adams plays DM I am not sure what McKennie's position is
     
  14. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    Okay, fair criticism.

    Where's the line on continuation? Roughly how many new players constitutes continuation?
     
  15. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    to me the basic qualification recipe is so simple. you put out a relatively leak resistant defense like we did for gold cup. and then more of our offense than we have been, not so many hustle players. you do that, last cycle we were a leading GF team and just needed a defense. that alone would hack qualifying. if you don't give up many goals you will get your home wins and some road points and that's all you need.

    that much accomplished, it would then be in the hands of the coach to select well and bring kids along and upgrade the team towards competition with Mexico. but the basic formula used to be good for at least 2nd place every time. we just for some reason beyond me tried to turn into Holland with backs who don't defend. you do that and you will have some 0-4 nightmares and 1-2 or 1-1 road games where the result goes away, and you better not blow home games at all.

    if we were going to emulate teams you'd think we'd try France or Germany instead. strong attack, hard work and organization (it's not just a hustle player quality), defenders that defend, top notch keeping. we instead imitate the cutesy second tier teams that win very few trophies like Holland and Spain. endless passing, not enough danger, and most tourneys, questionable defense. but they look so pretty going out.
     
    gogorath repped this.
  16. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    Dude, you are getting paranoid. You're one of the first people I've seen to dislike Dest, so I was honesly curious who you thought was a better option.

    I don't mind Cannon and Lima, but I think Dest's upside is much, much higher than them. For me, he's a play for the future.

    I was never impressed by Moore. I'd play Miles Robinson in the Tim Ream role but not as a true RB.

    Adams? Is there someone other than me that wants to actually see that experiment?

    Who is Laursen?

    I can see Lichaj though I don't love him. I'd take Dest over Payne anyday, personally.

    Richards is a CB to me, and I think McKennie is going to develop into a very strong box to box.
     
    Patrick167 repped this.
  17. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    So you'd be fine with a veteran defense, much like what we rolled out in the GC? I'm just curious.

    I mean, what you describe ... we are pretty close to there. The Gold Cup team, when healthy, probably takes 2nd and at least 3rd in the hex. Simply adding Adams and Brooks.
     
  18. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    #243 juvechelsea, Aug 23, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2019
    i was responding to someone -- not you, if it de-escalates a little -- saying use the "preferred" lineup already 3 years out. i don't "prefer" finishing second already -- as we already did -- so i find that highly questionable.

    i "prefer" first place. we do not know yet who that requires. that would require some experiments. we face a schedule of friendlies, cuba, and canada. at least some of those have to be worthy of risk.

    it's a basic sanity definition thing. even if we were playing absolutely to win, a team already finishing second should be changing enough tactics and players it might possibly change the result. otherwise you are literally putting a kick me sign on your team to repeat results over and over. which is kind of what we do with our conservatism right now. people telling me anyone but the usual suspects is a risk and then the usual suspects lose the big ones. i would think that would be cognitive dissonance but hey.

    i would not have scheduled two elite sides where i felt pressed to play a particular roster. this is last fall's mistake, which constrains your penchant for risk. i would play a fairly first choice team for the first LoN games and then see if we had some room to coast the second set.

    thus, in terms of how to select: experiment (sept). for real (oct). experiment if we can (nov).

    as well, "for real," i would swap out bench players, adams for bradley, someone for ream, weah at RF, wood or sargent at striker, mckennie to 8, probably swap in some different backup keepers, and then swap out a lot of the trash bench we had for GC. based on that panama game as well as common sense eval it should be lletget holmes gall green boyd, etc. and not roldan mihailovic trapp etc.

    i would also start giving pomykal mendez soto richards some caps.

    ironically, i think my version leads to more winning than theirs because i would actually hold accountable people who got caps. the current version we assume we have it figured out and players are not accountable to actual performance. i would go by who plays well -- like we used to. cut the club affiliation and minutes crap. i am quite fine with my favorites succeeding, but also with them washing out. i just don't like a system that assumes we are fine now -- we're not -- and then overrates the current bunch and underrates anyone else. that to me sounds like some sort of an elite men's club which is not unironic considering the state of USSF.
     
  19. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    I don't have any kind of problem with most of that. There should be new players tried out ... but I think we need to try out the players with the potential to be upgrades.

    Adams won't be there in September, I bet, given the injury. Which is a shame, because it's tough to lay out a team without knowing if the experiment is dead or not.

    But I'm hoping and somewhat expecting to see players like Weah, Sargent, Holmes or Lleget to be there. I want confirmation that Boyd is still in the mix/pan some way. I'd like to see Pomykal and someone new at LB. Maybe some Miles Robinson. Morales, though I think everyone is going to be disappointed.

    After that, I'm good. I'd rather not see Zardes, Lovitz or Trapp again. I'm less definitive on Roldan, but I think Paxton makes him expendable.

    I wouldn't bring in many more new guys than that this time around.
     
    Patrick167 repped this.
  20. 50/50 Ball

    50/50 Ball Member+

    Sep 6, 2006
    USA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The Gold Cup defense gave up 2 goals in the tournament and trailed for 17 minutes total. The D wasn't the problem. The midfield was much more concerning.
     
    NietzscheIsDead and largegarlic repped this.
  21. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    GC opposition featured 2nd rate attackers, players who wouldn't start for most MLS teams.

    My big field player list is--

    -----------------------------Sargent/Morris/Sapong/Toye/Altidore------------
    ---------Pulsiic/Boyd-------Sonora/Parks/Ferreira/Green-------Weah/Arriola/Rodriguez
    --------------Nagbe/McKennie/Morales/Lletget/Pomykal/Servania/Roldan
    --Hollingshead/Robinson--------------------------------------------------Cannon/Dest/Araujo/Herrera
    --------------------------Brooks/Robinson/Long/Miazga/Zimmerman-----

    I excluded players who are injured or aren't making the gameday rosters.

    One of the RBs could be given a run out at LB.
     
    Eighteen Alpha repped this.
  22. Lloyd Heilbrunn

    Lloyd Heilbrunn Member+

    Feb 11, 2002
    Jupiter, Fl.
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Now here is an idea I like:

     
  23. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    I'm still ticked that Deuce's farewell game was the loss at Couva.
     
    NietzscheIsDead and Winoman repped this.
  24. Sebsasour

    Sebsasour Member+

    New Mexico United
    May 26, 2012
    Albuquerque NM
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Squad is out Wednesday. Hearing a lot of "core group" which isn't promising

     
    Winoman repped this.
  25. soccerusa517

    soccerusa517 Member+

    Jun 23, 2009
    Ohio
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Gregg is out of his depth.
     
    nowherenova and Winoman repped this.

Share This Page