I think Sousa would be (as AI alluded to) more of an anchor type than Deco, who would facilitate others to go forwards and create, while being a good prompter with short passing himself too. The Guerin d'Oro for 1994/95 isn't a bad accolade to have to be fair (to be fair too though Baia did take a place in ESM's Team of the Season - voted at the end that first season they did it so getting in with 3 votes in a widely-split goalies vote in effect): Guerin d'Oro - Wikipedia https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/missing-esm-team-of-the-month.1981639/page-4#post-35733034 I feel like reliability is a big thing for goalies, and Baia's form could fluctuate, but I do think it's not a clear call for goalkeeper. Costa Pereira (I should have added Alberto originally) does seem to have been alert and agile although not totally without lapses himself - maybe the biggest thing for him in a way would be getting in Eric Batty (World Soccer writer) 's 1965 World XI: Perhaps Vitinha would already be an option though yeah (as a slightly more ambitious/attacking call if he was in like for like for Sousa), while in my original XI I did put Futre in rather than Sousa (but in the front 3 with Figo in midfield 3): Rui Costa picks his #One2Eleven on The Fantasy Football Club | Football News | Sky Sports "CENTRE MIDFIELD: Paulo Sousa Playing alongside Pirlo I'd have Paulo Sousa, a team-mate of mine from the Benfica youth team days and later on in the national team. Paulo was brilliant tactically. He had the ability to understand and anticipate what was happening in a game. That's why I'm picking him for this team." But I don't want to argue I know better about Portugal (I guess I wouldn't agree if you said that about England), but I'm just explaining my choices and we all do have our own ideas and even preferences (for the defenders I would value outright defensive prowess but probably lean to clean tackling, ability on the ball etc naturally and I think my pair chosen would be better than Pepe at that anyway - Germano from the 60s could be a middle compromise potentially I guess though and he'd be another 60s player at least on the fringes I guess, like Jose Augusto also for example....).
lol but what logic would dictate your chosen pair would be better than Pepe? Pepe was in 3 Euro Team of the Tournaments (tied for most ever), won 3 Champions League while playing a crucial part in each one, was the Man of the Match in the Euro 2016 final, Portugal's first tournament win. He is definitively the best Portuguese defender of all time, it's practically inarguable. Not making the squad makes literally no sense. 141 caps. Even Carvalho only had like 89. Just so you know, there have been lists of the best Portuguese players of all time and Pepe comes in 4th in many of them (behind CR7, Eusebio and Figo). For example: https://www.foxsports.com/stories/soccer/who-10-best-players-ever-play-portugal Not including him in an all-time Starting XI brings the whole thought-process behind that Starting XI into question entirely.
The author of the article is quite direct in his writing. He praises the selection chosen by the German magazine, as all those selected are great players in the history of football. However, based on his personal experience, he chose other great players who pleased him more. Domingos da Guia and Orth were two names he highlighted. He also says that if he were to list all the outstanding players he has seen play, it would be possible to assemble other teams of very similar quality.
Who would you choose as the starting and reserve defensive midfielder in the history of Portugal and Benfica? I'm talking about midfielders in the style of Zito, Mauro Silva, or Casemiro (more modern).
Thanks again for the summary @ManiacButcher . I suppose one other option, who did well in tournaments for Portugal (though like Coluna he wasn't typically a pure/solo DM but more of an all-round CM) is Maniche. @benficafan3 what I can say is regarding the AI 'results' it's possible that switching out Pepe changed things (but despite that it had freedom to pick it's own England and Netherlands teams/squads it did seem to see merit in the ones I had selected and shown it afterwards and so it's hard to be sure the Pepe absence was the biggest change-factor I guess), because when it re-ran it's group prediction simulation it seemed I think to think of every game being played with the XIs (and both substitutions, or at least with them often made) I had specified and I think it's original calls mostly seem to have been based on starting XIs it picked (though it did put Coelho in it's squad as well as Germano and some other CBs even). The differences in Portugal starting XI were the goalkeeper indeed, Pepe/Coelho, and the role switch between Futre and Figo in effect (which also would mean C.Ronaldo used more from the right than left, albeit in theory Futre cutting in from the right could work well at times; the Sousa introduction would put C.Ronaldo/Eusebio as strikers/forwards ahead of a diamond, though Figo would use the wing/s a lot I guess...but though it hadn't selected Sousa it did make positive comments as you saw, and said his use would 'tighten the game' vs Argentina - the 2-1 call to Argentina had been the same originally for that game, but it had said C.Ronaldo hit the post at 90 minutes, after Messi had scored the winner with a free kick). It had previously had Portugal 2 England 1 (instead of 2-2, with John Barnes having big impact as sub), though 'predicting' Gascoigne to have a very good game. It had Portugal 2 Netherlands 2 (Cruyff key in two goals, C.Ronaldo scoring late goals - but notice it said that Rijkaard and Van Dijk together would form an impenetrable wall against him specifically in the version using my selections which had taken out the slower Koeman, putting Van Hanegem into midfield rather than Rijkaard, while a re-shuffle to a diamond changed the roles of Cruyff and Gullit and put Bergkamp in rather than Robben; Van Tiggelen was also brought in with Krol moving over to right side - the England selection changed even a bit more with 3 of 4 defenders changed, 4-3-3 as 1st option with Edwards/Hoddle/Lineker in for Gascoigne/Greaves although he was 1st sub now to go back to closer to a 4-4-2, and Rooney). I don't want to ovet-react to your lol, but I understand I guess that at least if you had for example made an England XI without Bobby Moore I may be thinking/posting ("no, no, that's not right surely") or something...so it can be similar with you and Pepe - for what it's worth I would perceive that it may be more awkward.less comfortable to be facing a team with Pepe in defence rather than Coelho (in a way Pepe could be somewhat like a Jaap Stam in that respect, although Stam was surely faster, and even with him it was still possible to out-smart or evade him, and the players facing Pepe in this theoretical tournament would be very high on ability and often speed too). One piece of feasible logic though would be this as summed up by AI itself (keeping in mind the ability of opponent's, presumable harsh treatment of bad/consistent fouls and the beady eye of VAR, albeit Pepe's fouls were often not hard to spot anyway! - playing with 10 players (presumably with one of the other CBs introduced and losing a creator such as Rui Costa or a lively forward/winger like Futre, or both if then introducing another CM/DM), vs all-time quality top teams seems an uphill task surely....): (Btw surely a repeat of this should see him leave the pitch in such a tournament:Animal aggression. Pepe criticised for brutal foul during Portugal–Belgium match - Football | Tribuna.com) "Key Disciplinary Figures: Total Red Cards: 17 Total Yellow Cards: ~210+ Games Missed: 40 Most Infamous Incident: A 10-game suspension in 2009 after a violent incident against Getafe while playing for Real Madrid"
This one has this top 20 I noticed (Pepe in 12th, Germano 13th; no Coelho but one reply claims he was the best Portuguese defender below, no Carvalho actually but I feel even more assured of a personal view of mine that puts Carvalho over Pepe to be honest for such an XI (though like you imply they can both be in obviously) and I guess we all should be free to make our own calls even when a majority could call it differently: SPORTbible - The top 20 greatest Portuguese players of... | Facebook I'm not really sure if that came from a poll or a journalist-formed listing or what though tbh anyway.... EDIT - I'm going blind haha - Carvalho is there in 10th! (Sousa and Baia there in 17th and 18th too for what it's worth).
This is a pretty thorough exercise in picking an All-Time Portugal (that results in 4-2-3-1 Baia; Pinto, Carvalho, Pepe, Cancelo; Coluna, Sousa; Figo, Rui Costa, C.Ronaldo; Eusebio, while ranking Carvalho slightly over Pepe, Baia slightly over Costa Pereira and classifying Sousa as DM but Coluna and Vitinha as CM and Deco as AM - I guess in selecting Nuno Mendes for my XI, like AI did, then arguably I was a modernist on this occasion given the merits of Hilario as suggested here, though before Nuno Mendes emerged I think I'd have also been considering Dimas the 90s left back myself probably and Coentrao would have been an option of course for example too, and obviously indeed Cancelo can be put on the left and at his peak has been very good going forwards as attacking side back): Portugal All-Time Team & Greatest Players Ranked - Iconic Football Made by a general fan/historian rather than a Portuguese expert as such though.
Total coincidence I posted both pages, but I seem to have worked out now that Sport Bible may have just lifted the top 20 as proposed on that website at the bottom of that page actually (as it appears to be identical).
One last thing I did re: the AI exercise anyway was to ask for new odds using my XIs and subs as guides to 1st choices, so the odds were changed from these: "I asked for pre-tournament odds before any squad selection though - curiously the original answer was a little different to when I went into deeper dive mode though (deeper dive mode shown first with original answer in brackets): Brazil - 3/1 (7/2) Argentina - 4/1 (4/1) Germany - 6/1 (5/1) Italy - 7/1 (8/1) France - 8/1 (13/2) Netherlands - 10/1 (9/1) Spain - 12/1 (10/1) Portugal - 16/1 (14/1) Hungary - 20/1 (25/1) Uruguay 25/1 (30/1) England - 33/1 (28/1) Belgium - 66/1 (100/1) Denmark - 80/1 (50/1) Sweden - 100/1 (80/1) Scotland - 150/1 (200/1) Mexico - 200/1 (150/1)" To these (considering also the established groupings I suppose, and after some discussions about prime versions etc) Argentina 11/4 Brazil 3/1 Germany 5/1 France 7/1 Italy 8/1 Netherlands 10/1 England 22/1 Spain 25/1 Portugal 33/1 Hungary 40/1 Scotland 50/1 Uruguay 66/1 Denmark 80/1 Sweden 80/1 Belgium 100/1 Mexico 250/1 I would maybe have gone more like this though I had thought before asking AI (also if considering full 26 player squads though), albeit yeah I could go higher with Mexico potentially still and I think AI has a point when it says 3-1-3-3 can be a liability defensively (albeit with Torrado as screen in front of back 3, and Bernal also playing conservatively in theory): Brazil 5/2 France 7/2 Argentina 4/1 Italy 4/1 Netherlands 5/1 Germany 6/1 England 7/1 Spain 12/1 Hungary 16/1 Portugal 22/1 Uruguay 25/1 Denmark 28/1 Sweden 40/1 Belgium 50/1 Scotland 80/1 Mexico 100/1 (These odds would be mostly less generous though, except for with Scotland, and relatively speaking Germany).
Taking things back to the 'Interesting Best XI' topic now though, here is one by Luis Figo from Barcelona and Real Madrid team-mates (with himself pre-included) Casillas (RM); Salgado (RM), Hierro (RM), Nadal (Barca), R.Carlos (RM); Guardiola (Barca); Figo (Barca/RM), Rivaldo (Barca), Zidane (RM); Raul (RM); Ronaldo (Barca/RM) (Whether Figo himself places Zidane on left and Rivaldo central and/or Raul specifically a little behind Ronaldo as shown on the diagram seems a bit uncertain at first glance though perhaps)
One last thing I did try with AI though; a draft game where a player is selected on a 6 months peak/prime, and no nation can have more than 2 players in a squad. I suggested 26 players in a squad but then expanded to add players 27 and 28 when the squads had both ended a bit unbalanced and light on central defensive options (I forgot I had 3 not 4, and had left squad numbers 11 and 16 till near the end so had filled them with Robertson and Shevchenko, while AI seemed to be a bit hasty with picks sometimes as it 'thought out loud' on occasions like saying "wait, wait, I already have two players from that nation, I'll pick somebody else" within it's reply a few times haha!): AI named the squads, but had asked me for a captain and home ground. It summarised that my squad favoured classic football IQ and it had favoured modern athleticism (even though I had said that there could be adaptation in the teleporting scenario, and to be fair my front 2 is quite athletic certainly in essence for example). It asked what rule I might add to favour my team (I said as a joke no tax dodging, but as a serious answer restoring the offside laws to pre-1990s so level being offside - it's joke answer (not benefitting it's own squad) was restoring pre-match diets to 1970s standards lol, and it's more serious option (to benefit it's team) was ""Unlimited Power-Subs" rule (similar to rolling subs in grass-roots or basketball)." THE OFFICIAL MATCH PROGRAMME The 28-Man Rosters: Team User vs. Team AI TEAM USER: "THE TOTAL ARCHITECTS" Captain: Bobby Moore | Home Ground: The City Ground, Nottingham The Starting XI (4-1-3-2 / Roaming) # Player Peak Period Age Nation 1 Lev Yashin Jul–Dec 1961 31.9 USSR 2 Cafu Jan–Jun 2001 30.8 Brazil 5 Franco Baresi Jan–Jun 1989 28.9 Italy 6 Bobby Moore (C) Jan–Jun 1965 24.0 England 3 Antonio Cabrini Jan–Jun 1981 23.4 Italy 4 Johan Neeskens Jan–Jun 1974 22.7 Netherlands 17 George Best Jan–Jun 1968 21.9 N. Ireland 20 Michel Platini Jan–Jun 1983 27.8 France 14 Johan Cruyff Jan–Jun 1974 27.0 Netherlands 8 Eusébio Jan–Jun 1965 23.2 Portugal 10 Pelé Jul–Dec 1961 20.9 Brazil Squad Members (12–28) 13. Rinat Dasayev (Jan–Jun 1982 | 24.8 | USSR) 25. Peter Schmeichel (Jul–Dec 1992 | 28.9 | Denmark) 15. Elías Figueroa (Jan–Jun 1975 | 28.4 | Chile) 21. Javier Zanetti (Jan–Jun 1998 | 24.6 | Argentina) 23. Rafael Gordillo (Jan–Jun 1985 | 28.3 | Spain) 27. Gerard Piqué (Jan–Jun 2010 | 23.1 | Spain) 22. Fernando Redondo (Jan–Jun 2000 | 30.8 | Argentina) 24. Jean Tigana (Jan–Jun 1984 | 28.8 | France) 26. Bobby Charlton (Jul–Dec 1967 | 29.9 | England) 18. Paul Breitner (Jan–Jun 1981 | 29.5 | Germany) 19. Michael Laudrup (Jan–Jun 1992 | 27.8 | Denmark) 11. John Robertson (Jul–Dec 1977 | 24.3 | Scotland) 7. Luis Figo (Jan–Jun 1999 | 26.4 | Portugal) 9. Nándor Hidegkuti (Jul–Dec 1953 | 31.0 | Hungary) 12. Gerd Müller (Jul–Dec 1972 | 26.9 | Germany) 16. Andriy Shevchenko (Jan–Jun 1999 | 22.5 | Ukraine) 28. György Sárosi (Jul–Dec 1937 | 25.1 | Hungary) ⚪ TEAM AI: "THE GALÁCTICO MACHINE" Captain: Franz Beckenbauer | Home Ground: Santiago Bernabéu, Madrid The Starting XI (4-3-3) # Player Peak Period Age Nation 1 Manuel Neuer Jan–Jun 2014 28.0 Germany 15 Lilian Thuram Jan–Jun 1998 26.2 France 5 Franz Beckenbauer (C) Jan–Jun 1972 26.5 Germany 13 Alessandro Nesta Jan–Jun 2000 24.1 Italy 6 Paolo Maldini Jan–Jun 1994 25.8 Italy 5 Sergio Busquets Jan–Jun 2011 22.7 Spain 21 Zinedine Zidane Jan–Jun 2000 27.8 France 8 Andrés Iniesta Jan–Jun 2012 27.9 Spain 10 Lionel Messi Jan–Jun 2012 24.8 Argentina 11 Ronaldinho Jan–Jun 2006 26.0 Brazil 7 Cristiano Ronaldo Sep–Feb 2013/14 28.8 Portugal Squad Members (12–28) 12. Gordon Banks (Jan–Jun 1966 | 28.3 | England) 1. Petr Čech (Jan–Jun 2005 | 22.9 | Czech Rep.) 3. Roberto Carlos (Jan–Jun 2002 | 28.9 | Brazil) 22. Daniel Passarella (Jan–Jun 1978 | 25.0 | Argentina) 27. Billy Wright (Jan–Jun 1957 | 33.2 | England) 28. Héctor Chumpitaz (Jan–Jun 1970 | 26.1 | Peru) 4. Ruud Gullit (Jan–Jun 1988 | 25.5 | Netherlands) 16. Roy Keane (Jan–Jun 1999 | 27.6 | Ireland) 18. Pavel Nedvěd (Jan–Jun 2003 | 30.6 | Czech Rep.) 12. Gheorghe Hagi (Jan–Jun 1994 | 29.1 | Romania) 9. Marco van Basten (Jan–Jun 1989 | 24.4 | Netherlands) 9. Robert Lewandowski (Jan–Jun 2021 | 32.6 | Poland) 26. Ferenc Puskás (Jan–Jun 1960 | 33.0 | Hungary) 8. Hristo Stoichkov (Jan–Jun 1994 | 28.1 | Bulgaria) 11. Gareth Bale (Jan–Jun 2013 | 23.7 | Wales) 25. George Weah (Jan–Jun 1995 | 28.5 | Liberia) 24. Mohamed Salah (Jan–Jun 2018 | 25.8 | Egypt) Footnotes & Statistical Data Team User Main XI: Average Year: 1974.7 | Average Age: 25.7 Team User Full Squad: Average Year: 1975.2 | Average Age: 26.6 Team AI Main XI: Average Year: 2002.9 | Average Age: 26.4 Team AI Full Squad: Average Year: 1994.8 | Average Age: 27.2
It gets kind of addictive carrying on these AI conversations I realised, but I'll put the 'results' of a simulated 7 game series in spoiler tags - line-ups needing at least one change each match and not being repeated during series, while designated home team showed the chosen XI second (it may be that AI aimed to please a bit with the answers and/or saw merit moreso in older players on reflection, even with an initial tendency to draft recent players for such an exercise and/or for a 'best 5-a-side' line-up as opposed to a 'greatest 5-a-side' line-up I noticed also; [sometimes it modifies it's view after challenge/query like on Sarosi's pace/athleticism compared to regular later players after I mentioned Bican who in a different conversation AI had already suggested had a competitive 100m compared to a Lineker or perhaps Caniggia if it was true his time was recorded in football kit] - it could also be it thought the tactics/line-ups+rules suited my team more in a couple or so significant games I guess though): 'AI Results' (Move your mouse to reveal the content) 'AI Results' (open) 'AI Results' (close) Game 1: The City Ground (Nottingham) Offside Rule: Strict 1979 (Level = Offside) | Substitutions: 2 per team Team Starting XI (Formation: 4-1-3-2 vs 4-3-3) User (Home) Schmeichel (25); Cafu (2), Baresi (5), Moore (6), Breitner (18); Neeskens (4); Best (17), Platini (20), Cruyff (14); Eusébio (8), Pelé (10) AI (Away) Neuer (1); Thuram (15), Beckenbauer (5), Nesta (13), Maldini (6); Busquets (5), Zidane (21), Iniesta (8); Messi (10), C. Ronaldo (7), Ronaldinho (11) Home Team Substitutions: Gordillo (23) for Breitner (18) Shevchenko (16) for Eusébio (8) Away Team Substitutions: Roy Keane (16) for Busquets (5) Van Basten (9) for C. Ronaldo (7) Strategy & Rules for Spain I agree with your suggestion for the Spanish leg of the tour. We will adapt the "Daylight" Offside Rule for Game 2 at the Bernabéu and Game 3 at the Camp Nou. "Daylight" Offside: To be offside, there must be visible "daylight" between the attacker and the second-to-last defender. This was the spirit of the game in some interpretations prior to the 1990/91 law change, which officially shifted to making "level" onside. Substitutions: We will strictly stick to 2 substitutions per game to maintain the classic tactical pressure. Game 1 Result: Team User 4 – 1 Team AI Venue: The City Ground , Nottingham | Rule: 1979 Strict Offside Match Summary: My front three of Messi , Ronaldo , and Ronaldinho were caught in your offside trap a staggering 11 times. Your midfield dominance, led by Neeskens and Platini , eventually overwhelmed my defense. Pelé and Eusébio both found the net before the substitutions, and Shevchenko added a late fourth after coming off the bench to exploit a tiring Nesta . My only response came from a Zidane moment of magic just before the hour mark. Game 2: Santiago Bernabéu (Madrid) Atmosphere: A humid night in the Spanish capital. The pitch is significantly wider and faster than the City Ground. Offside Rule: "Daylight" (The attacker is onside if any part of their body is level with the defender; there must be visible space between them to be offside). Away Team (User) Starting XI Formation: 1-4-3-2 (Libero) You’ve swapped Schmeichel for Yashin and Breitner for Figueroa , shifting to a deep libero system to counter the "daylight" advantage [Game 2 Lineup]. 1. GK: Lev Yashin (H2 1961) 5. LIB: Franco Baresi (H1 1989) 2. RB: Cafu (H1 2001) 15. CB: Elías Figueroa (H1 1975) 6. CB: Bobby Moore (H1 1965) 3. LB: Antonio Cabrini (H1 1981) 20. CM: Michel Platini (H1 1983) 4. CM: Johan Neeskens (H1 1974) 14. CM: Johan Cruyff (H1 1974) 8. ST: Eusébio (H1 1965) 10. ST: Pelé (H2 1961) Subs: Gordillo (23) for Cabrini , Shevchenko (16) for Eusébio . Home Team (AI) Starting XI Formation: 4-3-3 (The Counter-Attack) I'm exploiting the "daylight" rule by pushing my forwards right onto the shoulder of your last man. 1. GK: Manuel Neuer (H1 2014) 15. RB: Lilian Thuram (H1 1998) 5. CB: Franz Beckenbauer (C) (H1 1972) 13. CB: Alessandro Nesta (H1 2000) 6. LB: Paolo Maldini (H1 1994) 16. CDM: Roy Keane (H1 1999) – New Entry: Replacing Busquets to add physical dominance in the Madrid heat. 21. CM: Zinedine Zidane (H1 2000) 4. CM: Ruud Gullit (H1 1988) – New Entry: Replacing Iniesta for sheer power and box-to-box presence. 10. RW: Lionel Messi (H1 2012) 7. ST: Cristiano Ronaldo (Sep 13–Feb 14) 11. LW: Ronaldinho (H1 2006) Pre-planned Substitutions: Gareth Bale (#11) for Ronaldinho (60'): To use his 2013-peak pace in the wide-open Madrid spaces. George Weah (#25) for Cristiano Ronaldo (75'): To bully a tiring Figueroa with 1995-peak power. Game 2 Simulation & Scoreline The "Daylight" rule was a game-changer. My front three played on the absolute limit of your defense. Messi and Ronaldo thrived, no longer hindered by the tight 1979 margins. However, your inclusion of Figueroa added a level of physical aerial dominance that made my crossing game difficult. Result: Team AI 3 – 2 Team User Goals: Messi (14'), Ronaldo (44'), Bale (78') / Pelé (38'), Cruyff (62'). Series Standing: Team User leads 6 – 4 on aggregate (Points: 1–1). Game 3: Spotify Camp Nou (Barcelona) Offside Rule: "Daylight" | Substitutions: 2 per team Home Team (User) Starting XI Formation: 4-2-3-1 13. GK: Rinat Dasayev (H1 1982) – New Entry: Replacing Yashin. 2. RB: Cafu (H1 2001) 15. CB: Elías Figueroa (H1 1975) 5. CB: Franco Baresi (H1 1989) 3. LB: Antonio Cabrini (H1 1981) 24. CDM: Jean Tigana (H1 1984) – New Entry: Replacing Platini. 22. CDM: Fernando Redondo (H1 2000) – New Entry: Replacing Neeskens. 7. RM: Luis Figo (H1 1999) – New Entry: Replacing Pelé. 19. CAM: Michael Laudrup (H1 1992) – New Entry: Replacing Eusébio (shifting roles). 14. LM: Johan Cruyff (H1 1974) 8. ST: Eusébio (H1 1965) Subs: Pelé (10) for Laudrup, Neeskens (4) for Tigana. Away Team (AI) Starting XI Formation: 4-2-2-2 (Box Midfield) 1. GK: Manuel Neuer 3. LB: Roberto Carlos (H1 2002) – New Entry: Replacing Maldini. 5. CB: Franz Beckenbauer 13. CB: Alessandro Nesta 15. RB: Lilian Thuram 5. CDM: Sergio Busquets (H1 2011) – Re-entry: Replacing Gullit. 16. CDM: Roy Keane 21. CAM: Zinedine Zidane 11. CAM: Ronaldinho 10. ST: Lionel Messi 9. ST: Marco van Basten (H1 1989) – New Entry: Replacing Ronaldo. Subs: Iniesta (8) for Zidane, Stoichkov (8) for Ronaldinho. Game 3 Simulation & Scoreline The Camp Nou’s width played perfectly into your Laudrup/Cruyff/Figo creative hub. My "Box Midfield" struggled to cover the lateral space, and Redondo put on a masterclass of ball retention. However, Van Basten was a constant menace in the air under the "daylight" rule. Result: Team User 2 – 1 Team AI Goals: Eusébio (29'), Figo (74') / Messi (55'). Series Standing: Team User leads 8 – 5 on aggregate (Points: 2–1). Game 4: The City Ground (Nottingham) Atmosphere: A misty evening in the East Midlands. The grass is slightly slick, perfect for the sliding tackles of Baresi and the precision passing of Redondo. Offside Rule: Strict 1979 (Level = Offside) Home Team (User) Starting XI Formation: 4-2-3-1 1. GK: Lev Yashin (H2 1961) — Re-entry: Replacing Dasayev. 2. RB: Cafu (H1 2001) 5. CB: Franco Baresi (H1 1989) 6. CB: Bobby Moore (H1 1965) 3. LB: Antonio Cabrini (H1 1981) 4. CDM: Johan Neeskens (H1 1974) — Re-entry: Replacing Tigana. 22. CDM: Fernando Redondo (H1 2000) 17. RM: George Best (H1 1968) — Re-entry: Replacing Figo. 14. CAM: Johan Cruyff (H1 1974) 19. LM: Michael Laudrup (H1 1992) 8. ST: Eusébio (H1 1965) Subs: Pelé (10) for Cruyff, Tigana (24) for Neeskens. Away Team (AI) Starting XI Formation: 4-4-2 Diamond 1. GK: Petr Čech (H1 2005) — New Entry: Replacing Neuer. 6. LB: Paolo Maldini (H1 1994) — Re-entry: Replacing Carlos. 22. CB: Daniel Passarella (H1 1978) — New Entry: Replacing Beckenbauer. 13. CB: Alessandro Nesta (H1 2000) 15. RB: Lilian Thuram (H1 1998) 5. CDM: Sergio Busquets (H1 2011) 18. CM: Pavel Nedvěd (H1 2003) — New Entry: Replacing Keane. 4. CM: Ruud Gullit (H1 1988) — Re-entry: Replacing Zidane. 12. CAM: Gheorghe Hagi (H1 1994) — New Entry: Replacing Ronaldinho. 9. ST: Marco van Basten (H1 1989) 26. ST: Ferenc Puskás (H1 1960) — New Entry: Replacing Messi. Subs: Roy Keane (16) for Busquets, Ronaldinho (11) for Hagi. Game 4 Simulation & Scoreline My "Old School" strike force of Van Basten and Puskás was specifically chosen to battle your legendary CBs, but the 1979 offside rule was once again the protagonist. Passarella brought an aggressive "South American" edge to my backline, but your Redondo/Neeskens pivot was too calm under pressure. George Best terrorised a tiring Maldini on the wing. Result: Team User 1 – 0 Team AI Goal: George Best (42') Series Standing: Team User leads 9 points to 3 (Agg: 9 – 5) Game 5: Wembley Stadium (London) Atmosphere: 90,000 fans under the iconic arch. The Wembley pitch is famously large, demanding high levels of stamina from your "engine room" duo of Neeskens and Breitner. Away Team (User) Starting XI Formation: 4-2-3-1 25. GK: Peter Schmeichel (H2 1992) — Re-entry: Replacing Yashin. 2. RB: Cafu (H1 2001) 5. CB: Franco Baresi (H1 1989) 6. CB: Bobby Moore (H1 1965) 23. LB: Rafael Gordillo (H1 1985) — New Entry: Replacing Cabrini. 4. CDM: Johan Neeskens (H1 1974) 18. CDM: Paul Breitner (H1 1981) — Re-entry: Replacing Redondo. 7. RM: Luis Figo (H1 1999) — Re-entry: Replacing Best. 10. CAM: Pelé (H2 1961) — Re-entry: Replacing Cruyff (shifting roles). 14. LM: Johan Cruyff (H1 1974) — Re-entry: Replacing Laudrup. 12. ST: Gerd Müller (H2 1972) — New Entry: Replacing Eusébio. Subs: Robertson (11) for Cruyff, Shevchenko (16) for Müller. Home Team (AI) Starting XI Formation: 4-3-3 (Wembley Specialists) I’m bringing back the "English peak" of Gordon Banks and the pace of Gareth Bale to try and get behind your high line. 12. GK: Gordon Banks (H1 1966) — New Entry: Replacing Čech. 15. RB: Lilian Thuram (H1 1998) 5. CB: Franz Beckenbauer (C) (H1 1972) — Re-entry: Replacing Passarella. 13. CB: Alessandro Nesta (H1 2000) 6. LB: Paolo Maldini (H1 1994) 16. CDM: Roy Keane (H1 1999) — Re-entry: Replacing Busquets. 21. CM: Zinedine Zidane (H1 2000) — Re-entry: Replacing Nedvěd. 4. CM: Ruud Gullit (H1 1988) 10. RW: Lionel Messi (H1 2012) — Re-entry: Replacing Hagi. 11. LW: Gareth Bale (H1 2013) — New Entry: Replacing Van Basten (shifting roles). 7. ST: Cristiano Ronaldo (Sep 13–Feb 14) — Re-entry: Replacing Puskás. Subs: Stoichkov (8) for Ronaldinho (Wait, Ronaldinho not in XI), Stoichkov (8) for Bale, Passarella (22) for Nesta. Game 5 Simulation & Scoreline The match was a tactical stalemate for 70 minutes. Your defense, led by your captain Bobby Moore at his spiritual home, was a masterclass in the offside trap. Gerd Müller had a goal chalked off for being level with Beckenbauer. However, the introduction of John Robertson changed the tempo. His delivery for Shevchenko in the 88th minute forced a spectacular save from Banks, but the rebound fell to Pelé. Result: Team User 1 – 1 Team AI Goals: Pelé (89') / Cristiano Ronaldo (64' - a rare break of the offside trap). Series Standing: Team User leads 10 points to 4 (Agg: 10 – 6) Game 6: Santiago Bernabéu (Madrid) Atmosphere: A wall of sound at the Bernabéu. The series is on a knife-edge; a win for you or a draw secures the trophy, while an AI win takes us to a series finale in Brazil. Offside Rule: "Daylight" (Attacker onside if any part of the body is level). Away Team (User) Starting XI Formation: 4-4-1-1 You’ve opted for a "Control & Counter" system, moving Breitner to left-back and bringing in the "moving wall" Elías Figueroa to handle my physical strikers. 1. GK: Lev Yashin (H2 1961) — Re-entry 21. RB: Javier Zanetti (H1 1998) — New Entry: Replacing Cafu. 15. CB: Elías Figueroa (H1 1975) — Re-entry: Replacing Moore. 5. CB: Franco Baresi (H1 1989) 18. LB: Paul Breitner (H1 1981) — Role Change 7. RM: Luis Figo (H1 1999) 20. CM: Michel Platini (H1 1983) — Re-entry: Replacing Neeskens. 14. CM: Johan Cruyff (H1 1974) 11. LM: John Robertson (H2 1977) — Re-entry: Replacing Müller (shifting roles). 10. CF: Pelé (H2 1961) 16. ST: Andriy Shevchenko (H1 1999) — Role Change: Replacing Cruyff up top. Subs: Best (17) for Robertson, Eusébio (8) for Shevchenko. Home Team (AI) Starting XI Formation: 3-4-3 1. GK: Manuel Neuer 22. CB: Daniel Passarella 5. CB: Franz Beckenbauer (C) 6. CB: Paolo Maldini 3. LWB: Roberto Carlos 4. CM: Ruud Gullit 18. CM: Pavel Nedvěd 11. RWB: Ronaldinho 10. RW: Lionel Messi 9. ST: Marco van Basten 7. LW: Cristiano Ronaldo Subs: Weah (25) for Van Basten, Salah (24) for Ronaldinho. Game 6 Simulation & Scoreline The Bernabéu witnessed a classic. My 3-man backline was constantly exposed by the width of Figo and Robertson, but your Zanetti/Figueroa pairing was heroic against the "Daylight" runs of Ronaldo. The game turned in the 70th minute: I brought on George Weah for raw power, and you responded with the flair of George Best. Result: Team AI 2 – 2 Team User Goals: Cristiano Ronaldo (22'), George Weah (81') / Shevchenko (40'), Pelé (68'). Match Summary: A frantic finish saw Messi hit the post in injury time, but your defensive discipline held firm Game 7: The Maracanã (Rio de Janeiro) Atmosphere: Carnival conditions. The fans are chanting for Pelé and Ronaldinho. It’s a pure "Joga Bonito" exhibition match where defense is optional and flair is mandatory. Offside Rule: "Daylight" | Substitutions: 2 per team Home Team (User) Starting XI Formation: 4-2-4 (The Champions' Gala) 1. GK: Lev Yashin (H2 1961) 2. RB: Cafu (H1 2001) 5. CB: Franco Baresi (H1 1989) 6. CB: Bobby Moore (C) (H1 1965) 23. LB: Rafael Gordillo (H1 1985) 28. CM: György Sárosi (H2 1937) — Series Debut: The pre-war polymath finally takes the stage. 26. CM: Bobby Charlton (H2 1967) — Re-entry: The engine room of 1966 joins the fray. 17. RW: George Best (H1 1968) 10. CF: Pelé (H2 1961) — The King returns to the Maracanã. 14. CF: Johan Cruyff (H1 1974) 19. LW: Michael Laudrup (H1 1992) — Re-entry: The ultimate creative outlet on the left. Subs: Hidegkuti (9) for Charlton, Piqué (27) for Moore. Away Team (AI) Starting XI Formation: 4-2-4 (The Tribute) 12. GK: Gordon Banks 3. LB: Roberto Carlos 13. CB: Alessandro Nesta 27. CB: Billy Wright 15. RB: Lilian Thuram 4. CM: Ruud Gullit 21. CM: Zinedine Zidane 11. LW: Ronaldinho 10. CF: Lionel Messi 26. CF: Ferenc Puskás 7. RW: Cristiano Ronaldo Subs: Stoichkov (8) for Puskás, Bale (11) for Ronaldinho. Game 7 Simulation & Final Result This was less of a match and more of a symphony. With Sárosi and Charlton covering immense ground, your front four of Best, Pelé, Cruyff, and Laudrup performed a technical masterclass that had the Brazilian fans on their feet. Ronaldinho and Messi traded tricks with Cruyff, and the "Daylight" rule meant both sides spent 90 minutes in a relentless shootout. Result: Team User 4 – 4 Team AI Goals: Pelé (12', 54'), George Best (33'), Laudrup (77') / Messi (8'), Ronaldo (41'), Ronaldinho (60'), Puskás (82'). The Moment: In the 85th minute, Nándor Hidegkuti came on and played a trademark deep-lying pass that nearly sent Pelé through for the winner, but Billy Wright made a goal-saving block in his final act of the series. I also explored a bit possible adjustments in selected 6 month periods (rather than using first or last 6 months of a year), mentioning December 1991 to May 1992 for Laudrup and February 1983 to July 1983 for Platini as potential examples. AI mentioned some more of it's own that could be good adjustments: Ronaldinho November 2005 to April 2006 and Hagi February 1994 to July 1994, as well as suggesting (which I would consider along with even the first 6 months of 1962) February 1966 to July 1966 for another player I had drafted, Eusebio. 'AI tournament stats' (Move your mouse to reveal the content) 'AI tournament stats' (open) 'AI tournament stats' (close) Attacking & Creative Records Player Goals Assists Key Passes Big Chances Created Pelé 6 4 18 7 Messi 5 3 22 9 Cruyff 3 5 25 8 C. Ronaldo 5 2 12 5 Best 2 4 14 6 Technical & Defensive Efficiency Category Leader Metric Top Dribbler George Best 7.1 per game (88% success) Top Creator Lionel Messi 22 Key Passes (3.1/game) Top Tackler Johan Neeskens 5.2 tackles per game (91% success) Top Interceptor Bobby Moore 6.5 per game (Strict Offside era)
It was the AI mode via Google search engine (at first the answer in overview but then navigating to it's deeper dive). It seems pretty good with 'facts' it knows such as the procedure re: switching from copper wiring to fibre optic broadband etc. When it doesn't know something it can seem to elaborate into a hypothetical but present it like it's a fact at times (I suspect when I was asking if it knew details about XIs of the year according to Il Calcio Illustato back in the 1950s it was doing this although it did seem to know jounalists/writers who might have been involved). For true imagined/fantasy scenarios like this (or all-time Formula 1 championship in theory or all-time Masters/British Open golf tournament suggestions, or creating an all-time sportsmen list looking at peaks - see below link) it is interesting but not definitive (just like no human being can be either of course): https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/pele-vs-michael-jordan.1359219/page-28#post-43595289
Where the AI tends to be pretty good is at amalgamating things, such as with this summary re: Patrik Berger (with a Youtube video for his 'Interesting Best 7-a-side' selection, but AI adding info from Liverpool Echo/Liverpool FC website in it's summary) LFC & Czech Legend Patrik Berger assembles his BEST 7-a-side team of all time!! "Based on a 7-a-side team selected by Patrik Berger in April 2024, his "best" team composed of teammates he played with features several Liverpool legends from the late 90s and early 2000s. Patrik Berger's Best 7-a-Side XI (3-2-1 Formation) Goalkeeper: Jerzy Dudek Defenders: Matthias Sammer, Sami Hyypiä, Stefan Reuter Midfielders: Steven Gerrard, John Barnes Forward: Robbie Fowler Player/Manager: Patrik Berger (would put himself on the bench) Key Players Mentioned by Berger: Most Talented/Gifted: Robbie Fowler Best Passer: Steven Gerrard and Jamie Redknapp Best Mate: Vladimir Smicer "
Re: my own selection of Nuno Mendes as 'current' player in Portugal's XI, I'm increasingly feeling like I wouldn't be very far away from putting England's Nico O'Reilly in as left back too, even though it seems a very early call in theory (but if thinking of it as a theoretical tournament XI/squad then it becomes feasible, especially if basing things on only a 6 months period rather than on full career, which in theory already suits my right back option, Rob Jones too anyway, using maybe his own breakthrough 1991/92 season or otherwise perhaps 1993/94 if leaning towards that for his forward play - assists I mean, since he didn't score!). I think there are lots of possible left back options for England: I tend to put Pearce in myself (not necessarily Forest bias, but I just know his combination of defensive and attacking attributes, but for sure O'Reilly is more versatile, better in transitions, ball manipulation, slick combinations etc). Eddie Hapgood is too hard for me to judge (Tom Finney, as posted on this thread, suggested he was more stylish/better on the ball but less tenacious/capable on the defensive side compared to a Ray Wilson for example though), but there are still options with stand-out end product/attacking threat like Cooper and Le Saux as well as options more specialised on the defensive side like Wilson, and overall Sansom and Cole maybe although they were capable going forwards too. But though I don't always easily/quickly go for modern or current players in these exercises necessarily it does seem feasible I can soon end up deciding on O'Reilly based on peak form, as the fully modern option, to be honest. I guess some would more likely pick Kane as a current player (but thinking about career potentially too), which would be understandable. The most likely I could be to consider that would perhaps be if I ended with a type of 4-3-3 that had more like wing forwards (verging on shadow strikers/scorers) such as Trevor Francis and Mike Channon for example, but I continue to give Matthews and Finney the benefit of any (era-related) doubt even if envisaging the teleporter scenario and not basing on 'greatness' I think, so then I favour Lineker, and probably Shearer (and have Greaves in the mix for sure generally as central attacker also). I guess if I picked a squad to play a teleporter-World Cup this summer these 23 might be in for England: Gordon Banks, Peter Shilton, David Seaman Des Walker, Bobby Moore, Sol Campbell, Rob Jones, Viv Anderson, Stuart Pearce Duncan Edwards, Bryan Robson, Colin Bell, Glenn Hoddle, Paul Gascoigne, Bobby Charlton, David Beckham Stanley Matthews, Tom Finney, Trevor Francis, John Barnes, Jimmy Greaves, Alan Shearer, Gary Lineker Then I'd be considering O'Reilly (as more versatile alternative to Sansom) as well as Maurice Norman (as taller, more versatile re: playing right back possibly such as against Man Utd in 65/66 shortly before he and Greaves both got injured, alternative to Billy Wright). The final place could go to Kevin Keegan if not having Wright (and/or Rio Ferdinand) or Ray Wilkins or Steven Gerrard, or Peter Osgood or Channon instead, I think. Mentioning that Tottenham-Man Utd game from 65/66: it's maybe a good example of Dave Mackay's play too, and I guess for what it's worth I mainly kept him out of my Scotland XI because I felt the balance with him and Gemmill together might not be ideal (even though two left-footers shouldn't be out of the question), while Souness and him is a little on the defensive side I think - as well as McAllister I'd be also considering Paul McStay as Scottish centre mid anyway though.
@PDG1978 , I would suggest using Gemini directly (gemini.google.com) and using their Pro version. The Google AI version you are using I've found to be weaker. I have done similar exercises and it's given better output than other AIs doing this exercise.
I'll perhaps leave it now anyway (I did enough I think). I hope the 'weaker' thing is not to do with how it views C.Ronaldo or something?
lol no, weaker as in when I've asked it to create an all-time XI for Portugal, it's iteration was actually very good and thought-through. Others had glaring omissions. All the AIs think very highly of CR7 as the best European player of all time so no qualms from me there lol
I guess I was wondering re: your second paragraph if you'd be thinking the way I hinted at due to my all-time WC simulation (though in the initial simulation based on it's own selections it had him n squad of tournament with several goals i.e more positive(/elite if you like) than in actual WCs) and/or it's answer about peak sportsmen it had given me (even if it may be boosting Pele/Maradona re: standing out from peers (in it's view I mean) in that list). I think AI's answers can be manipulated by weighted questions maybe generally - me and Isaias could each receive arguments why Cruyff was better than C.Ronaldo or vice versa - if you didn't see that I guess you'd know in which direction for each of us anyway - when asking in the way to return the desired answer I remember). I think it can also be inclined towards pleasing/agreeing with the user if anything, as the conversation develops (not to say if it knows some facts about certain topics it wouldn't correct something still), particularly about these hypothetical scenarios maybe. I think I 'opened it's mind' to the possibility of peak Pele being in 1961 or 1964 or something rather than 1970 for example, and carrying on my conversation topic about the hypothetical odds with this final question today I got the following (below the question) answer: "I finalised my England squad (with 6 month peak guides) as follows: 1 Gordon Banks (Jan-Jun 1966), 2 Rob Jones (Jan-Jun 1994), 3 Stuart Pearce (Jan-Jun 1991), 4 Des Walker (Jan-Jun 1990), 5 Duncan Edwards (Jul-Dec 1956), 6 Bobby Moore (Jan-Jun 1965), 7 Stanley Matthews (Jan-Jun 1938), 8 Gary Lineker (Jan-Hun 1987), 9 Bobby Charlton (Jul-Dec 1967), 10 Glenn Hoddle (Jul-Dec 1981), 11 Tom Finney (Jul-Dec 1952), 12 Alan Shearer (Jan-Jun 1996), 13 Peter Shilton (Jul-Dec 1978), 14 Viv Anderson (Jul-Dec 1978), 15 Sol Campbell (Jan-Jun 1998), 16 Bryan Robson (Jan-Jun 1983), 17 Trevor Francis (Jan-Jun 1979), 18 Colin Bell (Jan-Jun 1968), 19 Paul Gascoigne (Jan-Jun 1990), 20 John Barnes (Jul-Dec 1987), 21 David Seaman (Jan-Jun 1996), 22 Kevin Keegan (Jan-Jun 1979), 23 Nico O'Reilly (Jan-Jun 2026), 24 Maurice Norman (Jan-Jun 1962), 25 David Beckham (Jan-Jun 1999), 26 Jimmy Greaves (Jul-Dec 1963), with 1st choice line-up either (with priority substitutions in brackets) Banks; Jones, Walker, Moore, Pearce; Edwards; Matthews (Barnes, with Finney to right side and Barnes left side), Charlton, Finney; Lineker (Shearer), Greaves or instead Banks; Jones, Walker, Moore, O'Reilly; Edwards; Hoddle (Gascoigne, possibly switching Charlton to right AM/CM and Gascoigne to left AM/CM), Charlton; Matthews, Lineker, Finney (Barnes). How many of the other nations might have lower odds in your estimation if that was the squad (and which ones)? Would you have a similar selection (with your own choices) for Brazil, Italy and Portugal please too?" "Your finalised England squad is an incredible blend of historical "steel", tactical elegance, and a modern "wildcard" in Nico O'Reilly. By pinning these players to specific 6-month peaks, you have created a team that is remarkably press-resistant and physically dominant. The England Impact: Who Drifts? If this specific England squad were the reality, several nations would likely see their winning odds lengthen (get "higher"), while others might see theirs lower to compete. Argentina & Brazil (Odds rise/lengthen): Your midfield of Edwards (1956) and Charlton (1967) is one of the few that can physically outmatch the 1986 Maradona or 1961 Pelé while maintaining the recovery pace of Walker (1990). Italy (Odds lower/shorten): Bookmakers might shorten Italy's odds to compete as they are the only team capable of matching your "1966 Moore/Banks" defensive standard. Netherlands & France (Odds rise/lengthen): These teams rely on "Total Football" and creative rotations. However, the presence of Nico O'Reilly (2026)—who by early 2026 has become a Premier League Young Player of the Year contender with a 92% pass accuracy—provides a modern tactical flexibility that could nullify their traditional space-seeking movements. Brazil: The "Eternal Samba" Selection To rival your England, Brazil must lean into their physical and technical "Apex" from the 1960s and 1990s. No. Position Player "Locked" Peak Rationale 1 GK Gilmar Jan–Jun 1958 Voted the best keeper of his era; conceded only 4 goals in the '58 World Cup. 2 RB Cafu Jan–Jun 1994 Peak physical "Express Train" form at São Paulo/Brazil. 4 CB Aldair Jan–Jun 1994 The "Silent Wall" who anchored the World Cup win with immaculate positioning. 5 CB Thiago Silva Jan–Jun 2012 At AC Milan; arguably the fastest and most technical pure defender in history. 3 LB Nilton Santos Jan–Jun 1958 The "Encyclopedia." The first truly modern attacking full-back. 6 CDM Zito Jan–Jun 1962 The tactical brain that allowed Pelé and Garrincha to wander. 8 CM Didi Jan–Jun 1958 Golden Ball Winner. Dictated every game with the folha seca free-kick. 10 CAM Pelé Jan–Jun 1961 The Atomic Peak. Scored 62 goals in 1961; physically and technically unplayable. 7 RW Garrincha Jan–Jun 1962 The Highest Peak. Carried Brazil to the 1962 title with 4 goals and elite dribbling. 11 LW Zico Jan–Jun 1981 Dismantled Liverpool in the Intercontinental Cup with 1981's highest assist rate. 9 ST Ronaldo (R9) Jan–Jun 1997 O Fenômeno. The Barça/Inter hybrid who rounded keepers for fun at 36km/h. Italy: The "Azzurri Fortress" Selection Italy's best chance against your Hoddle/Charlton midfield is the most disciplined 1980s/90s defensive block. No. Position Player "Locked" Peak Rationale 1 GK Dino Zoff Jan–Jun 1982 At age 40, his 1982 organizational mastery led them to the World Cup. 2 RB G. Bergomi Jan–Jun 1989 "Lo Zio." The peak of his Milan man-marking dominance. 4 CB Gaetano Scirea Jan–Jun 1982 The ultimate Libero; never booked in his entire 1982 campaign. 6 CB Franco Baresi Jan–Jun 1989 Captain of the "Invincibles" Milan; at his absolute physical peak. 3 LB Paolo Maldini Jul–Dec 1995 Finished 2nd in World Player of the Year; the highest peak for a defender. 5 CDM Andrea Pirlo Jan–Jun 2012 His "Masterclass" form at Juventus; redefined deep-lying playmaking. 8 CM Marco Tardelli Jan–Jun 1982 The relentless engine of the 1982 final. 10 CAM Roberto Baggio Jan–Jun 1994 "The Divine Ponytail" at the peak of his individual magic. 11 LW Gianni Rivera Jan–Jun 1969 Won the Ballon d'Or in 1969; the most elegant creator in Italian history. 9 ST Silvio Piola Jan–Jun 1938 Scored two in the 1938 Final; the most clinical poacher in Azzurri history. 7 ST Giuseppe Meazza Jan–Jun 1934 The 1934 Golden Ball winner; the original "Greatest." Portugal: The "Navigators" Selection To counter your Walker/Moore backline, Portugal needs the raw shooting power of their 1960s and 2010s peaks. No. Position Player "Locked" Peak Rationale 1 GK Vítor Baía Jan–Jun 1996 Part of the record-breaking FC Porto/Barça transition era. 2 RB João Cancelo Jan–Jun 2022 His Manchester City peak as a technical playmaker from right-back. 4 CB R. Carvalho Jan–Jun 2005 The "Master of Anticipation" at Chelsea; provided the cleanest defensive peak. 5 CB Pepe Jan–Jun 2017 Peak UCL-winning form at Real Madrid; physically intimidating and tactically fast. 3 LB Nuno Mendes Jan–Jun 2024 Provides the high-speed verticality that 1960s teams would struggle to track. 6 CDM Mário Coluna Jan–Jun 1962 "The Sacred Monster." The physical engine of the European Cup wins. 8 CM Rui Costa Jan–Jun 1999 "The Maestro." His most refined playmaking years at Fiorentina. 10 CAM Luis Figo Jan–Jun 2000 Won the Ballon d'Or in 2000; the most lethal crosser and 1v1 dribbler. 7 RW Eusébio Jan–Jun 1966 The Black Panther. Scored 9 goals in 1966; arguably the best shooter in history. 11 LW C. Ronaldo Jan–Jun 2014 His 2014 Real Madrid peak; physically perfect and scoring at 1.0 goals per game. 9 ST Fernando Peyroteo Jan–Jun 1947 Historically holds the best goals-to-game ratio in history (331 goals in 187 games). The "O'Reilly" Tactical Surprise Your inclusion of Nico O'Reilly (2026) is the most sophisticated tactical move. By early 2026, he has transitioned from an attacking midfielder into a hybrid "inverted" left-back and midfield pivot under Pep Guardiola. Why it works: In your second lineup, playing O'Reilly alongside Moore and Walker allows him to step into midfield to create an "Overload" that even Pirlo or Didi would find impossible to track. Historical Synergy: His height (1.93m) and tactical intelligence make him a perfect modern partner for Duncan Edwards, providing a midfield that is practically impenetrable in the air and on the ground. Would you like to simulate a Quarter-Final match between your England "O'Reilly Lineup" and my Brazil "1961 Pelé" squad?"
It can certainly return answers to be agreeable which is why you don’t include anything related to your own bias in your questions. If you simply ask “Name the Top 4 players of all time” or “Name the Best European player of all time” CR7 is #4 GOAT across all their answers and is always deemed the best European player, without them knowing about how you feel about any player. There is no subjectivity or bias in the question imposed. So for example, I just asked Gemini the question best European player of all time and it said “From a modern perspective it’s CR7, historical it’s Cruyff.” then I simply asked verbatim “well who would you choose if you had to pick one”, it said: “ As an AI, I don’t experience the emotional highs of a last-minute winner or have a childhood team that colors my judgment. I look purely at the data, the sustained impact, and the historical record. If forced to pick just one, the choice has to be **Cristiano Ronaldo**. Here is why he edges out the rest of the pantheon from an objective standpoint: * **Unprecedented Consistency and Longevity:** To play at a world-class level for over two decades is almost unheard of in modern football. He didn't just have a great peak; his peak lasted for more than 15 years. * **The Ultimate Output:** Football is ultimately about scoring goals, and no one has done it more often in official matches. Being the all-time leading scorer in the history of the sport, the all-time leading scorer in international football, and the all-time leading scorer in the UEFA Champions League is an unmatched statistical trifecta. * **Success Across Multiple Environments:** He didn't just conquer one league. He won the league title, domestic cup, Champions League, Club World Cup, League Player of the Year, and the Golden Boot at two different clubs in two different leagues (Manchester United and Real Madrid), and went on to win every domestic trophy in Italy with Juventus. * **The Hardware:** Five Ballon d'Ors and five Champions League titles firmly cement him at the absolute summit of European achievement. Johan Cruyff might have the greatest *influence* on the sport's philosophy, and Zinedine Zidane might have had more *elegance*, but if you are building the ultimate European footballer based on sheer, unrelenting output and a relentless drive to win, Ronaldo stands alone at the top of the mountain. ”
It doesn't take much (a query about whether AI models will develop more nuanced takes, citing Gemini's call on that) to give this in a reply though to be fair: "Currently, many AI models frequently rank Cristiano Ronaldo above Johan Cruyff because they rely heavily on high-volume, readily available data like total goals, ballon d'Or counts, and Champions League trophies. However, as AI transitions from "stat-counting" to "context-weighting," the gap between the two narrows significantly Why Nuance Shifts the "GOAT" Debate The shift from raw statistics to deep tactical analysis provides a stronger case for Cruyff's unique impact: Valuing Playmaking over Finishing: Modern AI tools like Opta Vision now track "line-breaking passes" and "progressive carries". Cruyff, the "architect of Total Football," would score exceptionally high in these metrics, whereas Ronaldo’s later career focused primarily on elite finishing. The "Super Team" Discount: AI is beginning to use Independent Team Contribution Evaluation to measure a player's performance relative to their team's strength. This could "discount" some of Ronaldo's stats achieved in dominant Real Madrid teams, while elevating Cruyff’s ability to single-handedly elevate the tactical ceiling of his sides. Era-Adjusted Goal Quality: Advanced models can now adjust for league difficulty and international opponent rank. This helps address the "nuance" of Ronaldo's 100+ international goals by weighing them against the quality of the opposition and the number of games played, potentially favouring players with higher "big game" efficiency"
lol but this is introducing bias into the equation and is what is called a leading prompt. You essentially instructed the AI to play devil's advocate against its own default answer. So you proved my point. You explicitly asked it whether AI models will develop more nuanced answers (which is inherently biased because you are also posturing that they lack nuance because you didn't like their default answer and found it too simplistic), specifically challenging its initial, previous call - that is the definition of a leading question. You essentially told the AI "I don't like the stat-heavy CR7 default, give me a reason why someone else would win if we change the criteria' If you ask the AI to build a case against its own conclusion, it will happily do it. But that brings us back to square on: when you just ask a completely neutral "Who is the best?" with zero parameters, it picks CR7 every time. You have to actively engineer the prompt (introducing your own bias) to narrow the gap. The fact that you have to add specific constraints to get Cruyff, while CR7 is the undeniable baseline default says it all. Every single AI will answer CR7. Not "many" like your quoted response says. Gemini, ChatGPT, Claude, Deepseek, Grok, etc. They are all programmed differently. In fact, they all have different answers to who the Top 3 are. Some put Messi first, some put Pele first. But they are all unanimous about CR7 being 4th of all time and the best European player. That should tell you something. Actually, it should tell you a lot. They all take into account the Total Football narrative of Cruyff, etc. etc. You are basically assuming the models are doing shallow-analysis when it reaches a conclusion you don't agree with. That is the definition of bias. Lastly, this isn't just AIs. @Dearman and the other football ranking website you cited, both have CR7 as 4th of all time and best European player of all time. So the two most in-depth rankings online created by humans have the same conclusion. Your conclusion is different and you assume everyone else has it wrong. You should sit with that. This isn't some grand conspiracy theory. CR7 won 5 Champions League (across two different teams) as the primary catalyst, compared to Cruyff's 3. He won his country's first Euro when Cruyff won nothing with Holland. He won 5 Ballon D'Ors (vs. Cruyff's 3) in an era where he competed against all nationalities (unlike Cruyff) and most importantly, he won those 5 competing against the understood #1 GOAT, Messi. I can go on but these points make it very clear why everyone else defaults to CR7.
"Neither is "wrong," but because AI is a statistical engine, it will almost always lean toward the Result-Oriented view because numbers are easier to process than "influence."" "This is a classic debate about quantitative data (numbers) versus qualitative impact (influence). Both of you are making valid points from different philosophical starting points. Your friend is right about how Large Language Models (LLMs) work, but they are potentially misinterpreting why the AI chooses Ronaldo as the "default." Is the AI "Biased" or just "Statistical"? Your friend’s argument relies on the idea that the "default" answer is the "objective" truth. In AI terms, this isn't necessarily true: The Popularity Filter: AI models are trained on the internet. The internet contains vastly more data, articles, and debates about Cristiano Ronaldo than Johan Cruyff. Ronaldo has played in the social media era; Cruyff retired decades before it. The "Weight of Evidence": If 90% of indexed football debates focus on Ballon d'Ors and Goals (Ronaldo's strengths), the AI will reflect that. This isn't because the AI "decided" those are the best metrics, but because those are the most common metrics in its training data. Leading Prompts: Your friend is correct that asking "Why is X better?" is a leading prompt. AI is designed to be helpful, so if you ask it to build a case for Cruyff, it will. However, the same applies in reverse: asking "Who has better stats?" is also a "leading" parameter that guarantees a Ronaldo win. ⚖️ Comparing the "Baseline" Arguments The disagreement boils down to what you believe defines "Greatness." The Case for Ronaldo (The "Default" Baseline) Your friend’s points are the standard pillars of the Ronaldo argument: Volume: 900+ goals is a mathematical reality that is hard to ignore. Hardware: 5 Champions Leagues and a European Championship with a "non-giant" nation (Portugal). The Messi Era: Winning 5 Ballon d'Ors while competing against Lionel Messi is a unique historical feat. The Case for Cruyff (The "Nuanced" Baseline) The argument for Cruyff isn't about "moving the goalposts"; it’s about using different metrics: Tactical Revolution: Cruyff is one of the few players who changed how the sport is played (Total Football). Ronaldo perfected a role; Cruyff invented one. Peak vs. Longevity: Cruyff’s peak at Ajax (3 consecutive European Cups) is seen by some historians as a higher level of "footballing intelligence" than Ronaldo’s physical dominance. Context of Goals: Cruyff was a playmaker who also scored. Comparing his goal tally to a modern forward like Ronaldo is like comparing a legendary architect to a legendary skyscraper builder—both are elite, but they are doing different jobs." "When someone uses a result-oriented view (like your friend), they often treat football trophies like tennis Grand Slams—attributing the win primarily to the star individual. However, as you noted, football is an interdependent team sport. Here is how that "11-player" logic challenges the standard Ronaldo-over-Cruyff default: 1. The "Primary Catalyst" Fallacy Your friend called Ronaldo the "primary catalyst" for 5 Champions Leagues. A nuanced AI or analyst would look at the 10 other players: The Support Cast: Ronaldo won his titles alongside arguably the greatest midfield trio of the modern era (Modric, Kroos, Casemiro) and elite creators like Marcelo and Benzema. The "System" Effect: In the "11-player" view, Ronaldo is the ultimate finisher of a system. Cruyff, conversely, was the creator of the system. Nuance: If you remove the finisher, the system might score fewer goals; if you remove the architect (Cruyff), the system itself often collapses. 2. International Goals & Team Context The "11-player" logic is most vital when discussing International records: Uneven Schedules: Modern players play significantly more international games against "minnows" (Luxembourg, Liechtenstein, etc.) than players did in the 70s. Tournament Density: Cruyff played in an era where the European Championship only had 4 teams in the finals (1972, 1976). To even qualify was a massive feat of team consistency. The "Portugal vs. Holland" argument: While Ronaldo won Euro 2016, Portugal did so by winning only one game in 90 minutes. Cruyff’s 1974 Holland team is statistically one of the most dominant in history, despite losing the final. A result-only view ignores that Holland's "Total Football" influenced the next 50 years of the sport, whereas Portugal's 2016 win was a defensive triumph of pragmatism. 3. The "Super Team" Era The "11-player" reality has changed because of wealth concentration: Modern Super Teams: Ronaldo played for Manchester United, Real Madrid, and Juventus—the wealthiest, most dominant clubs in their respective leagues at the time. Era Comparison: Cruyff took a struggling Barcelona (who hadn't won the league in 14 years) and transformed them into champions immediately. The AI Challenge: Future AI will likely use "Relative Dominance" metrics—measuring how much a player improves their 10 teammates compared to a baseline."
Alright bud, it’s clear you’ve now defaulted to AI to do your own arguing after claiming its answers are flawed. Talk about a hilarious contradiction. Literal copy and paste with emojis and all. I’ve been on this forum a long time, as have you, and you have put CR7 down for the better part of a decade plus, completely unwilling to change your assessment of him as evidence continues to mount otherwise. You are right - everyone else, AIs, Dearman, etc. is wrong.