Probably it's well known now @TerjeC but personally I'd put Bohinen in Team A and move Mykland to right wing/midfield and Solskjaer to striker I think (though he did do very well deputising as right winger for Beckham in 02/03 I remember for Man United). I guess I have more insight or memory of Bohinen than even a lot of Norwegians do though: https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/p...ivision-ratings.2037606/page-23#post-41194998 There are some glimpses of what I knew from him in this game (a rare clear defeat for Forest that season though!) vs future employers (as champions) Blackburn too IIRC (but keep in mind I guess to be fair that aside from being a Forest fan and very much so back then I also as alluded to just now on another thread have a preference for and enjoyment of playmakers and skilled players) For what it's worth DBS Calcio does show him with a peak rating significantly up on Carew's who I'd be in effect suggesting taking out (and the 94/95 Bohinen rating when up on the old site was in the 6.4 range for AVW in effect I recall, around the same as Bryan Roy's - I'll show what Happie11 has collected/calculated from Match magazine below too for that season, even if it's not mega-high and with some Forest defenders rated on average higher by that source, and higher than star attackers Collymore and Roy too though): https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/p...ivision-ratings.2037606/page-46#post-42738724 I wouldn't really suggest any other changes (and you are Norwegian and I'm not anyway!): any ideas would be borderline in my own mind or could well be countered anyway I guess....such as deciding between Heggem, who I did like as a player, and prime Henning Berg, or between Pedersen (see what I said re: Heggem lol) and alternatives Jakobsen or Leonhardsen maybe, or between Liverpool left-backs Riise and Bjornebye (who was in the 1996/97 PFA Team of the Year at his peak for what it's worth but I guess his inclusion would be a hard sell for the majority vs Riise indeed anyway).
Yeah, I guess Bohinen was the most successful of the Norwegians in the early years of PL, apart from Thorstvedt, being very successful between 1993 and 1996. And Bohinen did start the first two World Cup games in '94 ahead of Rekdal, after a very good 93–94-season where he helped Forest get promoted back to PL on first try. But Bohinen is not considered as important for the national team as Mykland and Rekdal (or Leonhardsen), and in the 2–0 game in '93 where he scored against England he wasn't originally in the squad, but 'Mini' Jakobsen got injured and Bohinen was called up as a replacement, and even made the team after impressing in training. Looking at his whole career, overall, he was probably too inconsistent to make the A team, and he had a tendency to get in conflicts with coaches on his club teams. So I won't make a change, but it's interesting to hear your view, looking at it from the outside. Speaking of Thorstvedt; I listened to another podcast with him just the other day (from October last year) where he names a dream team/favourite Norwegian players (with Thorstvedt himself as gk): Svein Fjælberg, Rune Bratseth, Terje Kojedal, John Arne Riise – Erik Mykland, Kjetil Rekdal, Martin Ødegaard – Gøran Sørloth, Erling Haaland, Tom Lund. Fjælberg and Kojedal played with Thorstvedt in Olympics '84, and Fjælberg also from same city and a friend, so probably a bit 'sentimental' reason behind those two choices. Riise record cap holder is given as reason for choosing him. Bratseth ("huge"). Then he names Ødegaard and Mykland in midfield ("must be included"), and after thinking a few seconds also names Rekdal ("often scored goals when team needed it the most"). In attack: Tom Lund ("extremely good"), Haaland ("obvious"). He struggles with the last player, but after a few seconds mentions Gøran Sørloth ("just to tease Alexander [son of Gøran] a bit" and also says he is not sure Gøran deserves this – so could easily have been someone else, I would think. Carew must stay in the A team, for me. He was Norway's biggest football talent until Haaland and Ødegaard probably. I remember watching some highlights of Rosenborg's matches in CL 1999–2000 many years ago and Carew really impressed (in particular at home against Feyenoord). Then he went to Valencia for a record fee in Norwegian football at the time and had a decent debut season, where he played in the 2001 CL Final (scored a penalty kick very cooly against Kahn in the PSO). The problem, I think, was that he wasn't a dedicated professional; didn't take his training as serious as he should have, so failed to reach his full potential. Yet it was an extraordinary career based on a Norwegian scale. The game I remember best from Carew is playing for Lyon away to Real Madrid in Nov. 2006 in CL, terrorizing the Madrid defence that included soon to-be Ballon d'or winner Cannavaro. I guess the majority would pick Berg over Heggem, as I also did in my first version, but watching some old games it seem clear Heggem was a better footballer, much better going forward and better crosses. Berg a better defender, had a great career and high importance to the national team (100 caps). I think Heggem would have been ranked ahead by many if not for the injuries he suffered, though. Euro 2000 was pretty much the end of his career, having just turned 25. Also I think Berg was better suited for a cb position, really, but I rank Johnsen ahead of Berg as cb. Gunnar Halle was also a strong contender for a rb slot. As Gamst Pedersen is mentioned, I could highlight his van Basten goal against Hungary in Sep. 2006. Not quite as good as van Basten in '88 final, although van Basten himself told Norwegian media it was just as good. (from 3:18) Pretty sure it was his best goal in his career, but best match probably away to Man. United a year earlier when he scored both goals when Blackburn won 2–1 (best remembered match, at least). Yeah, Riise would be a pretty clear choice over Bjørnebye for most Norwegians, I think.
Yeah, that was a brilliant volley by Pedersen (I don't think I'd seen it either, unlike his Premier League goals/highlights)! It could be in the conversation with Van Basten's vs USSR technically speaking, but yeah not quite as spectacular or from as far away from the goal, and maybe with the goalie in an easier position to beat? I guess you may even agree on this particular occasion that Hungary in that moment were of a lower standard than their 1950s team (in literal terms) but anyway that strike would be impressive in any game! Maybe worth being discussed in a best goals of all-time selection or included in a countdown (since the Van Basten one would inevitably be there and like I was alluding to here many goals by 'non-greats' could be in the mix, as well as goals from after 2001 of course, or before 1948, and ones that can't be seen on video in theory - similar for assists where some less famous players can have some great ones and there will be plenty from after 2001 too - I feel like Totti's best one might be vs Parma away in 2005/06 IIRC as one example for a player that was already a star in 2001): https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/1...iam-phil-gracek.2135217/page-22#post-43438942 https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/what-is-your-favorite-goal-ever.154146/page-6#post-39950297 Bohinen's best Norway goal would be the one vs Italy (and Baresi - not the only player to fool/slip away from Baresi in such a way, as great a defender as he was, though - Stojkovic comes to mind for one in Milan-Red Star 88/89) ahead of the one vs England I'd think (I think the Norway-England game probably did contribute towards Forest signing him though, even though yeah IIRC he played left wing and Leonhardsen central midfield that day I think?): For me his best goal of career might be away to Tottenham 94/95 though: Tottenham Hotspur 1-4 Nottingham Forest - 24 September 1994 (Goals on Sunday Highlights) (The 1-4 goal) Perhaps that Leicester game in 93/94 (they weren't mega-capable on the defensive side I'd say - a little bit ponderous compared to top level teams, but were still promoted that season into the PL themselves) could be his best one though in my recollection, and he was in really good form in early 1994 but in the World Cup he was average to below average (he'd had some fitness/injury issues related to having played a lot due to playing in Swiss and Nowegian football before signing for Forest though - and it can happen like that with for example Rooney being far below his top form of 09/10 and/or 10/11 in the 2010 WC - to an extent Egil Olsen's direct approach wouldn't help but I remember thinking Bohinen was far off what I'd already witnessed from him at Forest generally in that WC - Olsen's Norway did play some good football vs England in that win I remember/reminded myself even if aside from the goal it woulnd't be one of Bohinen's best games individually I'd say anyway). He has a 9 on DBS Calcio for this game (against Forest!) though Blackburn Rovers 7-0 Nottingham Forest (18/11/95) Just an 8 for this one at old Trafford: ON THIS DAY: Solskjaer's dream debut | Manchester United 2-2 Blackburn (96/97) | Classic Match I guess we'll see which were the highest ones (apparently the Independent's grades collected by a Norwegian source actually) for 94/95 as and when that season's PL ratings are restored, but this one might be a high one I guess for him for example: Nottingham Forest 3 Wimbledon 1, 17-10-1994 - YouTube Maybe even in away games like this he'll have a very good rating (he has a Non-OPTA pre-assist I guess on goal 2 here): Chelsea v Nottingham Forest 25-01-1995 Yeah, it's hard to completely gauge player personalities but Bohinen could be opinionated/argumentative at times it seems for sure, and yeah is true peak form period was short I'd say (not just to disqualify his Derby County period as a Forest fan lol - I live closer to Leicester anyway), but on peak/'quality' he'd probably be the first name I'd put on a Norway XI for that period (or overall? - well I guess it's a no brainer that all things considered now Erling Haaland goes in probably, even with Sojkskjaer/Flo and older players such as Tom Lund or ones from further back even to think about). I noticed this interview from Bohinen today anyway, which is interesting in a few ways: Lars Bohinen on his time in England: Collymore, Shearer, Jim Smith & more - Planet Football There's this too: ‘We were pioneers’: the Norwegians who transformed the Premier League before Erling Haaland | Erling Haaland | The Guardian And this is a Forest Premier League suggested XI someone posted: Forest Chat - Since August 1992, is this the Best 11 #NFFC... | Facebook (Roy Keane did play in 92/93 as well for Forest, even though it was a relegation season) I don't see the comments there now but via Google could see someone had posted this (referring I guess to Bryan Roy, not Keane, as a call for number 10 in Gibbs-White's place...but saying Bohinen can go there too): "David Wright I'll give you Roy, even though Bohinen could slot on to that #10 position"
From Match magazine too, here is Glenn Hoddle's all-time World XI as of summer 1980: Pat Jennings, Berti Vogts, Franz Beckenbauer, Bobby Moore, Francisco Marinho; Johan Cruyff, Bobby Charlton, Wim van Hanegem, Mario Kempes; Pele, George Best British XI (I'm assuming 4-4-2 with Best placed up front for this and world XI based on order of players listed, but commas are used not any semi-colons to separate players): Pat Jennings, Danny McGrain, Roy McFarland, Bobby Moore, Terry Cooper, ; Alan Ball, Tony Currie, Trevor Brooking, Bobby Charlton; Kevin Keegan, George Best. He cited Best as his favourite British player for his all-round ability, and Van Hanegem and Wolfgang Overath as favourite foreign players for their skill and passing (and West Ham United as his favourite 'other' team).
Also from Match, maybe this is more an interesting best X (10 players) but I think it possibly fits this thread better than a general 1982 World Cup/player ratings one.... Kevin Keegan's write-ups on his suggested 10 players to watch in World Cup 1982: Didier Six, Bruno Pezzey, Michel Platini, Manfred Kaltz, Luis Arconada, Zico, Giancarlo Antognoni, Karl-Heinz Rummenigge, Kenny Dalglish, Diego Maradona Continued in next post....
I can't believe Kevin Keegan had the eye-test to say what takes me hours to notice, and double check via Sofascore. These are some great insights into his thoughts. Zico was the third highest rated player by Sofascore for his 1982 World Cup efforts, and not even in the top 50 for posessions lost per match including players from all nations. I would have expected such an artist with the ball to be more excessive with his risk-associated actions.
I see that Clive Allen's XI from the same period was specifically shown in 4-3-3 format though, for both British and International versions (the latter being pretty close to Hoddle's choice though overall): 'British' XI: Peter Shilton; George Cohen, David O'Leary, Bobby Moore, Terry Cooper; Bobby Charlton, Alan Ball, Trevor Brooking; Jimmy Greaves, Denis Law, George Best International XI: Peter Shilton; Berti Vogts, Franz Beckenbauer, Ruud Krol, Francisco Marinho; Johan Cruyff, Pele, Wim van Hanegem; Jairzinho, Gerd Muller, Mario Kempes He had Kenny Dalglish as his favourite English league player and Cruyff as his favourite foreign player.
Trevor Brooking had Kevin Keegan as favourite English league player and Cruyff (specifically citing the game in 1977 at Wembley between England and the Netherlands) as favourite foreign player. His British XI: Gordon Banks; Sandy Jardine, Dave Watson, Bobby Moore, Ray Wilson; Colin Bell, Bobby Charlton, Kevin Keegan; George Best, Jimmy Greaves, Denis Law And his all-time International XI: Gordon Banks; Berti Vogts, Franz Beckenbauer, Bobby Moore, Paul Breitner; Johan Neeskens, Gunter Netzer; George Best, Pele, Kevin Keegan, Johan Cruyff
I found this page today belatedly, where you can pick an All-Time World Cup XI, from a selection provided just before the 2014 World Cup! http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-27699398#001023034016035073069056055103092 My own selection I just made can be seen via that link, although I guess I'm justifying the Neeskens/Charlton/Jairzinho inclusions on a fair play aspect combined with balance of the team (based on my previous posts purely re: performance it'd suggest places for Zidane, Garrincha and Maradona tbh, but I think Banks, Cafu, Maldini, Beckenbauer, Moore, Didi, Pele and Cruyff in is pretty consistent with my previous ideas) For sure the XIs of their experts were interesting though (with write-ups) on this page: World Cup: Pick your greatest XI - BBC News Main panel combined XI "A BBC Radio 5 live panel of commentators Darren Fletcher and John Motson, former England full-back Jimmy Armfield, French football journalist Julien Laurens and the BBC's South American football correspondent Tim Vickery have picked their own all-time XI. The lucky men to make the cut were Dino Zoff; Cafu, Bobby Moore, Franz Beckenbauer, Paolo Maldini; Garrincha, Zico, Lothar Matthaus, Zinedine Zidane; Pele, Diego Maradona." XIs of other experts Guy Mowbray BBC Sport commentator 1. Dino Zoff The incredible achievement of leading Italy to World Cup glory when 40 years old at Spain 1982 gives him the edge over fellow world champions Kahn, Buffon & Casillas. 2. Cafu An almost impossible choice at right-back between Cafu, the only player to play in three World Cup finals, and Carlos Alberto, the scorer of one of the most iconic World Cup final goals. It's interesting that older Brazilians regard Djalma Santos from the 1950s & 1960s as better than both of them. 3. Bobby Moore England's only World Cup-winning captain just has to be in there. You don't have to be old enough to have seen him play live to know that few players in football's history have read the game and timed tackles as well. 4. Franz Beckenbauer One of those rare players who you think might have excelled in any era. The template for modern ball-playing defenders. 5. Roberto Carlos Difficult, but his explosive energy just puts him ahead of two of my all-time favourites who were better defensively - Maldini and Brehme. 6. Xavi I've surely got to include a member of Spain's wonderful World Cup-winning team from 2010, so who better than the man who was at the heart of the mesmerising midfield carousel. 7. Andrea Pirlo The passmaster in Italy's 2006 triumph and a player I could watch all day – as many opponents have had to! Was a close call between the Italian and Gerson - the "brain" of Brazil's 1970 team. 8. Zinedine Zidane My favourite footballer of all time. His performances in 1998 left a huge mark on me, and the mark he left on Marco Materazzi eight years later was the most sensational sign-off ever to any sporting career. 9. Pele You can't select an all-time World Cup XI and not include the man still considered to be the best that ever played. 10. Diego Maradona I think more people would say he was the greatest ever, instead of Pele, were it not for the controversies that came with his incredible abilities. 11. Gerd Muller In looking for a pure finisher I wanted to include Lineker or Klinsmann, but I have to go with Muller for his remarkable record of 14 goals from 13 World Cup games, including the winner in the 1974 final. Mark Lawrenson BBC football expert 1. Lev Yashin Dressed all in black, he was an imposing and almost mysterious keeper. He was massive and commanded his area but he was agile too. 2. Carlos Alberto There were attacking full-backs before Carlos Alberto but, at the 1970 World Cup, he played in the best team I have ever seen. He was so comfortable on the ball, he could have played anywhere. 3. Franz Beckenbauer He was so good, he was able to dictate the way West Germany played from the back. Their team was all about him and he was coolness personified. I don't think I ever saw him give the ball away. 4. Bobby Moore People said he had no pace but, like Beckenbauer, he was never caught out of position. He was also a sweet passer of the ball, which people often overlooked. Cool and calm, he was a leader. 5. Paolo Maldini He could play anywhere - centre-back or midfield too if you wanted. A great tackler, he was strong and able to dominate opponents. I don't recall anybody ever getting the better of him. 6. Michel Platini Like all the best players in the world, the bigger the game, the better his performance. As well being a playmaker he was also a goalscorer from pretty much every position, and deadly with free-kicks too. 7. Zinedine Zidane He was the best player I ever saw in a tight space because he was able to get away from anybody. As well as being a creator and scoring spectacular goals, he could get them with his head too. 8. Jairzinho At the 1970 World Cup he gave England's Terry Cooper, who was a top left-back, all sorts of problems. He was strong, direct and a great crosser. His link-up play with Pele in 1970 was on a different planet. 9. Johan Cruyff He used to ghost into positions and glide past players. Fantastic vision and a top-class goalscorer, he was a brilliant footballer and the main man in the fabulous Dutch team of the 1970s. 10. Diego Maradona Runs Pele very close for the title of greatest player ever. He was at least 50% of the reason Argentina won the 1986 World Cup and he single-handedly got them to the final in 1990. 11. Pele What a player he was – big, strong, a fantastic touch and a great leap. Amazing in the air and it was like he had radar because he knew absolutely everything that was happening around him. Pat Nevin BBC football expert 1. Gordon Banks Wonder saves at the World Cup still live in the memory to this day, the Pele header in particular. He seemed almost to redraw the possibilities in goalkeeping. 2. Philipp Lahm His adaptability almost gets him a game on its own. Left-back, right-back, centre midfield, he is effortlessly world class anywhere. There are very few errors and no noticeable weaknesses. 3. Paolo Maldini His longevity gives him the nod over the rest, but he is comfortable all along the back four. He has no discernible weaknesses either defensively or offensively. 4. Claudio Gentile You need someone really hard, who can also play, when surrounded by such classy footballers in the back four, just in case someone needs sorting out. 5. Franz Beckenbauer A player who developed a new template for a position. He oozed class and controlled entire games from deep. It is a contractual obligation that you use the word "classy" when describing his play. 6. Cristiano Ronaldo At his best, as he is right now, he comes as close to unstoppable as you get. Skill, power, pace and height all as perfectly balanced and in place as his hair. 7. Andres Iniesta Someone has to represent what Spain has done for world football. It could be Xavi, David Silva or a number of others, but Iniesta was always my favourite. His vision is as good as anyone's I have seen. 8. Zinedine Zidane Zizou was a strange player. He had all the delicate skills you could wish for with an almost balletic style, yet he was tall and as strong as they come. 9. Johan Cruyff A player who reimagined the template of a position. Effortless grace and vision and he was the core of a totally new look to the game. 10. Pele He must be in any side because he was the best player in the world for such a long time. It took Diego Maradona's arrival for anyone to consider that someone else could even be in the same bracket. 11. Diego Maradona Head and shoulders above anyone else in his generation. For a long time I thought he would never be surpassed as the most skilful player in football history. A genius. Phil McNulty BBC Sport chief football writer 1. Dino Zoff The heart said England's Gordon Banks, a World Cup winner in 1966 and the man who made arguably the greatest save in the tournament's history from Pele in Guadalajara four years later. In the end though, a 40-year-old veteran who captained an Italy side that came out of the pack to win in Spain in 1982 gets the vote. Zoff was a legendary figure for his club Juventus and his country – and his feats in the World Cup made him an iconic sportsman. 2. Carlos Alberto Carlos Alberto was a player of such ability and a character of such force that he captained Brazil's 1970 World Cup-winning team containing Pele, still the benchmark for any great side. Any memory of their World Cup final win against Italy in Mexico's Azteca Stadium in 1970 is not complete without the image of Carlos Alberto racing on to Pele's delicate lay-off to rifle in the final goal in their 4-1 win. 3. Paolo Maldini Played in four World Cups and was one of the greatest defenders ever to have graced the game. A wonderful ambassador as well as player, Maldini was the perfect combination of the great Italian defender with a mixture of silk and steel. 4. Bobby Moore The only Englishman to lift the World Cup as captain, the glory coming at Wembley in 1966. This will ensure the West Ham captain's place in history - not only as the leader of Sir Alf Ramsey's victorious side but as a magnificent defender of authority, a calming presence and a consummate reader of the game. Moore may not have been able to repeat the feat in Mexico four years later but made his mark with a wonderful display in defeat against Brazil, perfectly illustrated by his famous tackle on Jairzinho and his embrace with Pele at the final whistle. 5. Franz Beckenbauer One of football's towering figures and a player of brilliant versatility, Beckenbauer was the midfielder deputed to keep Bobby Charlton quiet in the 1966 final and, four years later, played on with a broken collarbone in the semi-final loss to Italy. He is the only man to captain and coach World Cup-winning teams. No all-time great XI is complete without "Der Kaiser". 6. Zinedine Zidane Grace and power were his watchwords and his two goals in the France 98 final against Brazil in Paris made him a national hero. Zidane's World Cup story is scarred by his red card for head-butting Italy's Marco Materazzi in the 2006 final but his greatness and his impact when France won merits his inclusion. 7. Michel Platini Those of a certain age can cast their minds back from his current role as Uefa president to the era when he was the grand creator in a wonderful, free-flowing France team in the late 1970s and 80s. A scorer and maker of goals and one of the great players. 8. Bobby Charlton Charlton's goals helped England win the World Cup in 1966 and he was still such an influence in Mexico four years later that his premature substitution is still regarded as the turning point in the quarter-final loss to West Germany. Charlton mixed power and elegance and had a magnificent range of passing, plus a powerful shot that made him a regular scorer of spectacular goals in a career that flourished out of the adversity of the Munich air disaster in 1958. 9. Pele A World Cup winner as a teenager in 1958, then again in 1962 and 1970. The great Brazilian vies with Argentina's Diego Maradona for the title of football's greatest player. Quite simply brilliance personified and one of the first two names on this teamsheet. 10. Diego Maradona Maradona may be a notorious figure in England for his "hand of God" goal in the quarter-final in Mexico in 1986 but few players have exerted their influence on a World Cup as he did when he led Argentina to victory that year. The controversies came later when he tested positive for a banned substance in 1994 but when you write this team out, his name appears alongside Pele. 11. Johan Cruyff Think of this elegant, lavishly gifted individual and you think of the "Cruyff turn" paraded at the 1974 World Cup and of the man who was the symbol for the Netherlands' brand of "total football". A losing finalist in 1974 but a personality and player who stamped his mark all over that World Cup.
Very interesting. However, some choices make me suspect that they are based more on the player’s overall career than on their actual performances at the World Cup. I’m thinking of Michel Platini, for example: due to physical problems, he wasn’t able to play at his best in either 1982 or 1986, and I believe there are quite a few players who have achieved more than him in the World Cup. As for left-back, I think Antonio Cabrini also gave more than Maldini in this competition: Best Young Player at the 1978 World Cup and one of the best players in 1982, capped off with winning the tournament.
Yeah, hard to know exactly with Platini (the write-ups don't make it totally clear maybe) but I understand what you mean for sure. Re: Maldini there is also the question of whether we can factor in his displays as centre back in 1994 (though he played left back too, including in the Final once Italy needed to re-organise the defence due to an injury) when picking him for the left back slot I suppose. I think he was good/very good in 1990 though (almost as a wing-back at times though I suppose that year in Italy's system), even if ultimately over-shadowed by what Brehme did with his key contributions....(but yeah there can be a parallel with what you said about Platini in Maldini's case too, and Cabrini is a good option I think, although he himself was also doing very well at club level outside WC too).
It’s also true that Maldini, thanks to his monumental consistency, played in a remarkable four World Cups, all at a high level. Ironically, he didn’t participate in the 2006 tournament, even though Lippi tried to convince him until the very end, and Italy went on to win the World Cup. Maldini, with all his class and dignity, said he was happy for his teammates but sadly added, “it was destined to be this way.” So his presence isn’t really that annoying, but I would at least give the nod to Cabrini here—I believe he remains a highly underrated left-back for what he accomplished.
I remember when you posted that that 5 Italian names that came to mind (that I'd think I'd include myself or might be inclined to think could be in there anyway) were Roberto Donadoni, Giuseppe Giannini, Amadeo Amadei, Giacomo Bulgarelli and Gianluca Zambrotta. Nothing against Luca Toni but I tend to think I could be taking him out and not really seeing him as at this level; maybe Inzaghi out too for me I guess. I see the England version has been published now too: When I did make an attempt at that before I had these differences (as a general summary): Out of top 25 - Rooney, Scholes, Lampard, Kane, Billy Wright Out of top 25 and overall list - Dean*, Bloomer*, Peters* Into top 25 - Lawton, Francis, Mortensen, Brooking, Haynes Into top 25 from outside list - John Barnes, Colin Bell, Peter Osgood Out of top 50 - Hurst*, Lofthouse, Carter, both Coles, Terry, Platt, Fowler, Ince*, Adams, Ian Wright, Wilson, McFarland Into top 50 - Jackie Milburn, Tony Woodcock, Mike Channon, Des Walker, Sol Campbell, Len Shackleton, David Jack*, Matt Le Tissier, Ray Wilkins, Teddy Sheringham, David Seaman, Paul Merson, Rodney Marsh * Including Jack, and Bastin, had to be somewhat a punt on my part, so I could have easily have thought why not two out of Bloomer, Dean and G.O.Smith instead from even further back (well Dean was born after Jack, but I get the impression he peaked only in 1920s probably anyway), or alternatively if avoiding pre-1930s times then two out of Hurst, Peters and Ince perhaps (I was leaning away from having many defensive players too I guess, although in the case of Italy I'm sure I wouldn't quite so much despite plenty of talented and impactful Italian attackers and creators obviously being available). On the subject of Wilkins (and some of the Italian players), here is his own Perfect XI write-up: Ray Wilkins: Perfect XI | FourFourTwo Shilton; Maldini, Watson, Baresi, Sansom; Coppell, Souness, Robson, Hoddle; Stapleton, Lineker Subs: Donadoni, Clemence, Tassotti, Rijkaard, Keegan I remember having that issue of FourFourTwo and reading Wilkins' write-up back then. I can't think how he would include Rijkaard, albeit as a sub, as a team-mate (when that's the basis the rest of the players are selected on I think) now though curiously....?
Yes, the Dutch and Colombian lists were also published; I believe they are releasing one per day. Regarding the Italian ranking, as an Italian, I must say many positions leave me quite surprised. I find the absence of Roberto Donadoni quite serious, and I believe Pietro Vierchowod was the best "stopper" to ever appear in Italy. As I mentioned in a previous comment, I think Antonio Cabrini is vastly underrated—ranking him 38th, behind Beppe Bergomi and light-years away from Giacinto Facchetti, seems wrong. Personally, I don’t see such a huge gap, even if the Nerazzurri legend is considered a pioneer of the role. In my view, the top two spots should always be occupied by Giuseppe Meazza and Valentino Mazzola, with Franco Baresi following. Roberto Baggio was pure spectacle, but if you analyze everything from a 360-degree perspective, I’d place him behind several other players.
Zola should be placed much higher, expecially if Baggio is at the top. Pruzzo and Signori much more deserving than Toni and Inzaghi, Beccalossi should be present too (between 70s and 80s there was large consensus about him being the classiest italian player). In the Dutch ranking, Seedorf has been criminally left out.
Regarding Seedorf, it's my fault, I forgot to include this message specified by the magazine: "Han quedado excluidos futbolistas que cuando nacieron lo hicieron en regiones que ya no pertenecían a la Holanda continental, sus territorios de ultramar, colonias o protectorados. Este sería el ejemplo de Clarence Seedorf, nacido el 1 de abril de 1976 en Paramaribo, cuando Surinam ya era independiente de Holanda."
Yeah, I would always be inclined to Vierchowod in so I must not have realised or forgotten he wasn't there when I had the thought/made the comment. I did expect Frank to name Signori of course (but I pretty much see that the same also - see link to my Italy Reserves squad from our forum game for confirmation lol - I probably had Amadei available to me in theory for that though, while I temporarily had named De Sisti in a provisional 23!): https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/a...sion-rules-squads-info.2105345/#post-38010381 I just browsed the Dutch selection now (I'm going for a cup of tea etc then to settle down for Premier League updates on TV for the afternoon probably, away from Big Soccer) so I'd need to study that more and look at the Colombian one yet, but interesting where Wilkes was placed (squeezing into top 5) at first glance. I for sure would think Seedorf should be there yeah, unless these were intended for NT performance/career only maybe (which I guess not anyway). EDIT - Yeah, re: Zola, personally I'd at the least see him and Del Piero closer, I think (than the gap between them) although I don't say that's how everyone would see it....
Ah yeah, I think the John Barnes omission from England's 50 might be on similar grounds, judging by a comment I'd noticed on Twitter.
I think I don't have sufficient knowledge/viewing history in depth on Colombia to make any informed comments or verdicts on the Colombia 50 myself. I did look more at the Dutch one now, and I think (like with Argentina maybe?) it can be the case that a lot of the options are rightly included because they are certain choices that would pretty much always be there, so probably for that reason although there would be personal opinion on the order the majority of people would have quite a similar selection. I think I did try a Dutch 50 myself, on a thread or in a PM, a few years ago, but I won't dig that out to compare this time. I think most differences I had (except in a few cases some movements up or down a fair few places I suppose) would be minor/borderline ones. Maybe if I would think a Muhren can be making the list in the final places it could be more likely Arnold than Gerry, but actually I don't feel that I'm totally convinced on that one necessarily. I think for 'quality' I would always think of Bryan Roy before Kuyt (who maybe I think similar as I said for Toni being in the Italy 50) for example, but I know Kuyt can be highly credited for work-rate and perhaps has a bit better longevity all in all than Roy (for the Muhrens maybe this doesn't apply in favour of the selected player though, given Arnold's continued impact late into his 30s). One name missing that I tend to think could, or should, be there is Coen Moulijn. I might be a bit more open at this point to putting some current/very recent players in maybe, such as Frenkie de Jong.
To me, that of Brasil looks like based on a mix of World Cup Team results and recency bias. What do you think about it? (P.S. For instance, in my humble opinion, no way Kaka was a classier player than Socrates; Cafu is surely an all-timer as a "lateral", but I have seen a video where he himself recognize Leandro "jogou mais" than him; and Ronaldinho 5th best ever, well, ça va sans dire... and so on...)
Definitely interesting to see Frank! Brazil is the nation where another 50 players could be added at the drop of a hat I'd think maybe, but that selection does seem to have a good amount of top players from throughout Brazilian football history. I'm not normally one for recency bias I'm sure (although those players had all peaked before or by mid 00s, so not extremely recently) but in those cases I possibly would be inclined (with some level of doubt, but just going the same way I generally have done in their cases) to not lower those three, or to raise them (probably in Cafu's case - I might even place him as the top side back, but for sure they have a great collection of those, especially for the right side where Jorginho and/or Leandro could have also been included in theory I'd think - I think Junior, like Breitner of Germany, does have a 'dual-merit' as both left back and midfielder though to be fair). It makes sense I think (although Kaka had his moments of pure quality too, and wasn't only about speed and energy) to suggest Socrates was classier than Kaka, but then again the same could be said re: England for Hoddle being classier than Bobby Charlton I'd say in terms of skills and creativity (maybe also for Bergkamp vis a vis Gullit, though in that case young Bergkamp at least was certainly a quick runner, and it might be suggested I know that comparing both in Serie A, in general rather than for sporadic moments, he didn't necessarily seem classier on the ball in the same league), but Charlton's clear advantage in dynamism and athleticism has to be considered also (besides the fact that he was a more impactful England International player too, which is less of an argument or not an argument at all probably for Kaka vs Socrates re: Brazil international games/career). I do think Kaka and Socrates should probably be seen as more of a close call though at least (but like with the Bergkamp/Gullit comparison, even if later in 90s Bergkamp had edge in different league on a still very good, and classy, Gullit comparing best form of 2nd half 90s I suppose, there could be a consideration that Kaka shined more and was more productive/decisive in Italy than Socrates did, and maybe that is considered re: Falcao too, or in general Socrates might somehow have been seen in a slightly more favourable way in these kind of things had he not gone to Serie A at all?). Whether or not I'd take Ronaldinho out of a top 5, I'd put Zico into one; well actually into a top 2 or 3 (which you will like and agree with I guess Frank!). Maybe I would be inclined (moreso if giving a decent weight to longevity) to Rivelino (and Jairzinho too) over Rivaldo. I guess the Friedenreich position is very hard to properly argue for or against (but that could apply to other old-timers from other nations too).
I think given equal amounts of footage review and datasets, it is always harder to make lists for the greatest 50 players from a single nation, than 50 greatest for a certain time-frame. Simply because the tests for greatness varies so much across time. Maybe the compliance to rigid tactical structures matter more now, and perhaps usage of the more openly available spaces mattered more back then. It simply is not the same test. Things like athleticism, or level of technique cannot be rewarded by exactly the same amounts across time. Even if Socrates was more elegant than Kaka on footage review, I have no idea what that conclusion means consequentially-speaking in terms of its pragmatic ramifications, and how it functionally differentiated him versus his contemporary peers. There must have been a period of time when Kaka's speed with the dribble made him perhaps the most feared man in world football. Can we really measure the positive traits of Kaka in relation to the structural components of modern football, and measure that versus the attributes Socrates boasted that was proportionally rewarded very differently during his own era? However, because people are tribalistic in nature, they tend to have vastly disproportionate footage review and familiarity with datasets for players belonging to their own nation. So they just do lists that are more based on feel based on their hours of footage review that probably had totally variable testing parameters, and difficult-to-put-into-words conclusions off algorithms that may evaluate different things for different players. It often leads to very contrasting results, for lists that are done by a emotionally-distant third-party, and lists done locally. Both have value, but they often measure different things. When I think of Brazil, I have very strong impressions of their amazing fullbacks, and I was wondering where the likes of Dani Alves and Marcelo were. For example, if we did an World XI for each year, wouldn't Brazilian fullbacks make more appearances than forgotten past creative geniuses? Of course, that cannot be the only standard, but being rated above your contemporary peers at your own position, should be one of the considerations in my opinion.