.................... I was watching this entire game between Lazio vs Sampdoria in the 1993-94 season Gullit's reborning again and again... Especially in the first half of the match, he was very clinical, precise, tactically and technically intelligent ( great composure into the game ) ... ...... Samp scored a goal at the beginning of this match Evani took the corner with precision and intelligence in the six yards aerial ( corner kicks zone ) .... .............. Gullit made good combinations with Lombardo in this game ... An hour( 39 mins in the first half ) into the game an extremely key plays happened Gullit played ( passed the ball ) to Evani who gave a beautiful higher deep pass to Roberto Mancini that missed this clear chance goal at that moment in the match.. Then himself Roberto Mancini committed a completely unnecessary penalty .... so Lazio Goal Goal Goal ! 1 x 1 scoreline . .... ...... Honestly, Ruud Gullit is well known in Brazil, mainly by the previous generations before from 2004... Brazilian generations from the time of Pelé Zico... mainly Romário .... Bebeto and Ronaldo Nazario... But after 2004 in Brazil these are generations that are already extremely pre- concepts with the oldest Football in general. Fans of Ronaldinho Gaucho, Kaka, Adriano drunk , Robinho and Neymar Jr really hate older football... including Pelé... for example, at Pelé's funeral no one younger came to pay homage to him at this time . Ruud Gullit speaking Brazilian Portuguese there ! ....
Nice that he is talking in 'your' language very fluently there (of course I don't understand, and also today I should get back to that thread of IceBlood's later I think rather than look at too many more videos in full, but I noticed he was talking about Ronaldo Nazario and Van Basten a little bit anyway). You can see here that Guerin Sportivo gave ratings for that Lazio-Sampdoria game and awarded Gullit a high grade (by the standards of Italian media) of 7.5 indeed (and Lombardo a 7 too): https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/s...-player-ratings.2085771/page-99#post-38980850 Also here is a post with Gullit being deemed top Serie A player of that 1993/94 season by a prominent journalist: https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/s...player-ratings.2085771/page-102#post-39312743 I remember Football Italia on Channel 4 very well of course! I guess you feel a bit similar re: Brazilian footballers as I do re: world footballers when for example there are comments like "Messi and C.Ronaldo are clearly the best players ever" and I am thinking "hey come on, wait a minute, these older players were great and maybe you don't even know them very well..." (although some guys, such as Gary Neville IIRC, from more in my generation at least, did say such things about them being the best 2 ever I think too).
............................ I'm just showing or sharing the videos that I'm watching entirely my dear friend, But of course you don't need to watch these videos entirely for sure my dear friend.. Feel totally free not to watch them if you don't want to ! that's for sure ! .... Do what you want to do always ... ! your heart ( soul) is free Peter Gabriel ! God ( Jesus Christ ) blessing you always ! there in England !
..................... Yes... honestly in Brazil the same problem is happening here... fans of Ronaldinho Gaucho, Neymar Jr etc... hate Pelé... they say he played in a construction workers' league or in a totally amateur league, bad , weak, slow and full of spaces... They envy him for having very high numbers of goals, titles and assists. Only one to have won three World Cups, only one with 92 hattricks, only one with 1274 goals at top level . !
@PDG1978 Just to keep it somewhat on subject; back then (and still would do so) I had Gullit as right-back in my all-time Netherlands XI. I think he could do that very well. Defend well, cross well etc. He kind of played like that at euro 1992 and the 1994WC qualifiers at times. It's a nice way to include as many strong names as possible yet I don't think he was a markedly better player as Van Hanegem, Robben, De Bruyne, Hazard, Bergkamp for example (who I'd see as around that same level). But to drop him and include a full-back is also not right (not to deny a full-back matters too; see Numan & Bogarde injured for the 1998WC semi final and what big effect Meunier missing the 2018 semi final had!). It's fair to say he never showed his best in an Oranje shirt. In 1988 he's in the Sofascore TOTM but (as perspective) someone like Seedorf, with also a mixed legacy, in 2004 is not far below (0.02 lower) and is almost in the TOTM. But a Gullit below his best can still be very valuable of course, and obviously goes one or two tiers higher as the successful Botafogo man. I think Gullit was impressive in the 1988 final and that was possibly his best game in the tournament (a plus). The crowd booing him when he played Ajax in 1994-95 is quite embarrassing (walking away before 1994WC like Courtois does now, had something to do with that, and some distance had grown in the years before and of course he rejected Ajax as a teenager). He didn't have a particularly good game then to be fair. Yes, I can translate what is said in the video. You also might like these ones (it only includes scenes in an Oranje shirt) Yeah, quite a few sources like Gazzetta and Guerin Sportivo had him as the top rated player (the margin to #2 might look suspicious I have to say). You can well argue it was then when Serie A was at peak strength and dominating Europe and not the mid-80s, as is often thought. By then he had already six knee surgeries behind him. He did well in 1994-95 and 1995-96 too I'd say (for 1995-96 in a new league he again gets many plaudits and high ratings ofc and finished #2 in the FWA voting). In 1994-95 he was certainly among the more productive players of the league (goals + assists - penalties). Possibly even the most productive player of the league (goals + assists with excl. penalties) and I am not lying or making things up here. I think 1994-95 gets often overlooked (there are certainly a number of impressive games and for 1995-96 I'd say he played very well against champion Manchester United in the league and FA Cup). Titanlux doesn't have him among the 100 best players and that feels totally wrong for me (and doesn't include him for 1995-96 either), wouldn't happen with other legendary players and/or nationalities. Also Ajax 1994-1996 is very much underrated in my mind and for 1997-98 Del Piero feels way too low, outside top 20 (and Owen above Bergkamp?). Overmars 1995-96 too high, unless you place great value on his sensational form before his leg break. If only we had someone like Gullit in the squad now... for some reason (even with all the midfield injuries) 'we' are still rated pretty high somehow. It's showtime 🇪🇺🇩🇪⚽🏆Our Goalimpact EC 2024 prediction. pic.twitter.com/V9EjuA3BET— Goalimpact (@Goalimpact) June 14, 2024 The player model by well known 'Twenty First Group' has us fifth. A fraction behind Germany (home advantage), England, France and Spain but by a bigger margin ahead of Italy and Portugal (with then a gap to Belgium and Denmark - Denmark that high is highly impressive!). We do have the highest rated center back, just like in 2022. I'll watch some/many games in the evening but interest in the tournament is pretty low over here... maybe you can say (looking at the SofaScore ratings) that the period around 1988 and 1992 was such an enormous outlier that repeating it is highly unrealistic (and also that needed 'luck'). Besides, back then there were more young people (in absolute numbers), more registered football teams, and 'we' didn't do as well in other sports (arguably).
I'll add a few thoughts on this for you Puck, starting with the on topic 'Netherlands XI right back choices' ideas: yeah, I guess the same could be said about Neeskens in theory (using him as right back) and even Rijkaard albeit in his case, you'll know better than me, but did he ever actually play in the position in reality (I don't think I'm aware of games he played RB in anyway, so maybe it becomes a shakier choice even if in theory if a coach had decided to use him there for a stint it seems feasible he'd do pretty well I'd have thought, having probably a good set of attributes for it...but as with the other two using him there would seem a bit like wasting him in a non-optimal position, at least when there aren't great alternatives to play CB or CM, which in a theoretical all-time Netherlands XI doesn't apply so much of course). I stayed pretty consistent with Rijkaard as a CB, Neeskens as a CM, and Gullit as a RM (or RCM) in my Netherlands XI attempts I think, but there would be various ways it can be done, and for example putting Gullit at RB can allow a Bergkamp and/or a Wilkes into the line-up (I would have one of them in, probably Bergkamp, although Wilkes would be better in wide areas, and it's a bit like I said re: Bergkamp and Pedernera a while ago - it's maybe hard to just assume these players would be better than a Bergkamp in literal terms...historical standing being a slightly different matter...but on the other hand not impossible to believe they could have been, given when they played and how much footage is available). It's probably a bit harsh to be over-critical of Titanlux's lists I think to be fair, because there will always be areas where no two people see it quite the same (and so any person can 'disagree' with any list anyone makes in that respect maybe!). I know he was going by the general standing of players in terms of yearly votes and factoring in (global/continental) end of calendar year ones too, and so I suppose that will have gone against Gullit for 1995/96/1996, although for sure he was paying attention to Premier League-specific assessments too, because he shared some of them with me (I can show you by PM too even if you like, in terms of the ones he shared with me...which won't be all of them I think). I did have Bergkamp right up there personally for 1997/98/1998, and even in my initial idea for 1998 World Cup players too (reading between the lines I think this is where Titanlux sees him a bit lower more than re: Premier League, but I guess his relatively low-ish Ballon d'Or position, not featuring as CL player, even getting injured and not having quite a full 97/98 season could possibly go against him) - sometimes I can amend my 'off the top of head/memory' calls such as Kaka for CL 06/07 but whether I'd move Bergkamp much lower down as 1998 World Cup player I'm not really sure (I feel like no top players really had a consistently great impact in the tournament, but several shined at various moments, while some other players of a slightly less high standing and calibre played pretty well to very well generally - Ronald de Boer could be put in that category, maybe even Davids - the maybe being related to whether some people might see him as top tier as a player anyway). Those prediction/% chances to win the Euros lists are interesting. At first glance perhaps Hungary seems a little surprisingly low in the first one, and even being below Scotland in the second one might seem surprising? I'm avoiding placing any bets at the moment anyway (so probably I prefer anything I 'predict' not to come true lol - I don't think I'll ever have made a tournament prediction and correctly picked out the semi-finalists and results of semi-finals and final though, and rarely have guessed the correct winning team: since 1986 I think it's Brazil 2002, Spain 2010, Spain 2012 and France 2018 where I did): looking at the fixtures and groups I thought (before yesterdays game) that if I make a guess I might tend to guess Germany vs Netherlands and France vs England in the semis, and then possibly Germany vs France in the Final (with a very uncertain call of Germany to actually win that) - I guess I wouldn't be adjusting that at this point, but by the same token I guess my guess will not come true lol (even if that semi-final line-up seems reasonably feasible).
Talking of Cruyff interviews in Shoot magazine, I noticed this one Krokko had posted: Football Ratings: Johan Cruyff interview, 1974 (football-ratings.blogspot.com)
In terms of the RB position for an All-Time Dutch XI I guess it is a rare-ish case where several names could be considered even though it's not the position they mainly played (including defenders like Van Tiggelen and Krol).
For a Dutch World Cup XI (or World Cup/Euros XI maybe, considering the impact vs Germany in 1992) I guess Aron Winter is an option at right back too, albeit it could be hard to look past Suurbier I guess.... Overall Dutch World Cup/Euros XI potentially? Van der Sar; Winter, Rijkaard, Krol, Van Tiggelen; Neeskens, Davids, Van Hanegem; Bergkamp, Cruyff; Van Basten (subs including Gullit, because he's Gullit, despite like you say not showing his very best in Intl tournaments for various reasons, plus the likes of Sneijder, Ronald Koeman, Robben who I had in the XI before seeing the formation was 4-3-3-1 lol so it's him or one of the midfielders, perhaps WvH to be left out from what I had down at that point I think....Rep, Rensenbrink.... - others being either ineligible or with a significantly reduced case even though contenders for All-Time Dutch XI/squad in general potentially , such as V.Van Dijk, Seedorf, Wilkes, Lenstra....). I think I still had Bergkamp down as top 30 all-time World Cup player (obviously the Euros would further enhance his case as we know), albeit just like with 1998 specifically, being a borderline/doubtful case to be as high up as I have slotted him - this was how I was thinking the most recently, approximately, on that topic (giving more weight to single tournament performance than others potentially would probably): Pele, Maradona, Cruyff, Beckenbauer, Garrincha, Zidane, Jairzinho, Eusebio, Moore, Didi, Roberto Baggio, Messi, Ronaldo Nazario, Paolo Rossi, Gerd Muller, Kopa, Kempes, Fontaine, Bobby Charlton, Michael Laudrup, Baresi, Schiafffino, Maldini, Krol, Matthaus, Zico, Hagi, Bergkamp, Romario, Mbappe....
.............. The Best Holland ( Dutch Team XI ) of all times .... GK- Van Breukelen rb- Neeskens Cb- Davids ( to do the main covers lb- Ruud Krol dm- Haan (Rijsbergen ) dm - Hulshoff wg- Ruud Gullit oh- Koeman oh- Van Hanegem wg - Cruyff cf- Marco van Basten ............. The idea of this team is mainly to have several extremely fast, strong, resistant, highly reactive players and to have as many players as possible with extremely fast, agile and intelligent reactions at the same time into the main game . ..... For me players like Carlos Alberto Torres for me much better than Cafu for sure Carlos Alberto Torres was a total footballer too mainly from 1965 til 1973, Jair da Costa (inter Milan 63-72 and Santos FC played a little bit too !), Sir Bobby Charlton, Claude Makelele, Patrick Vieira, Edgar Davids (until 2000 or 1998 ) and Ruud Gullit... are extremely special players because they are very complete players both physically , technically, tactically and mentality... and also certainly with good skills mainly Patrick Vieira, Ruud Gullit, Jair da Costa, Davids, Sir Bobby Charlton .. a little bit less Claude Makelele in terms of skills ...in general . ! in my view .
................. Ruud Gullit was the only one true captain champion for Holland til today ! .... so could never to be out of Holland all the times . ! .............. I know that Ruud Gullit had his best performances for the Dutch national team... In the 1984 and 1988 Euro-Cup qualifiers... and in some friendlies like the 6 x 0 in Denmark in 1984 etc... i saw the most of whole games of Ruud Gullit with the National Team side ... and you know this already !!
I mean, it's still possible I could fit Gullit into that World Cup/Euros Final Tournaments Dutch XI I made too (especially given his merits in Euro 88 even if not completely playing at his best level), leaving out both Robben and Van Hanegem I suppose in that case. Another feasible option for that theoretical available slot, along with Sneijder (who, not really having played as LM in the tournaments, might fit better in a 70s style playmaking central midfield place in between Neeskens and Davids, or even further up in a kind of 4-2-3-1 as per Germany's system last night pretty much, in the Gundogan role), Rep and Rensenbrink, all I already named in the post, could be Frenkie de Jong I think.
.............. For me ... It's so simple for me your team : main lineup Van der Sar; Winter, Rijkaard, Krol, Van Tiggelen; Neeskens, Davids, Van Hanegem; Bergkamp, Cruyff; Van Basten ! Aron Winter out or Rijkaard out or Van tiggelen out or Bergkamp out ! or maybe Davids Out ! Ruud Gullit in or Ruud Gullit in or Gullit in or Ruud GulliT in ! or Gullit in ! that's so simple for me !
The most interesting part for me is the comment at the very end: he won 3-0 against the Champions of 'Holland' but says it could have been 2-1 and then you have a different game.
Remember it is only for World Cup/Euros mate though (I think you do realise that but just re-iterating), and that for All-Time Dutch XI I do have Gullit down as a 'lock' choice in one position or another (but probably right/central midfield in a kind of box to box role, with capability to go down the wing too). I will settle on this Gullit-inclusive World Cup/Euros Dutch XI: Van der Sar; Winter, Rijkaard, Krol, Van Tiggelen; Neeskens, Davids; Gullit, Bergkamp, Cruyff; Van Basten (subs possibly: Jongbloed although it could and arguably should be Van Breukelen maybe; R.Koeman, Suurbier although I would quite like the idea of having Van Aerle on the bench in theory, F. De Jong, R.De Boer, Rep, Rensenbrink) And this general All-Time 'optimum' Dutch XI as my choice for that one: Van der Sar; Suurbier, Rijkaard, Krol, Van Tiggelen; Gullit, Neeskens, Van Hanegem; Bergkamp, Cruyff; Van Basten (subs: Van Beveren?; V.Van Dijk, R.Koeman, Seedorf, Sneijder, Faas Wilkes, Rensenbrink although realistically I should fit in Van Nistelrooy perhaps as a main striker)
.................. no problems mate ! it's your own team ( lineup moment ) so you're so free always to put anyplayer that you want to !!! I know that you like too much of Dennis Bergkamp for me no problems about it . ! your vision is different abit than mine . !!!
.................. Honestly, I was also in doubt between Dennis Bergkamp or Willie Van Hanegem.. well I know that Bergkamp was certainly much more +++ brilliant than Willie Van Hanegem really a genius at all.. but Van Hanegem had a much stronger personality within the matches and leadership also... Van Hanegem against Brazil in 1974 he commanded the game giving a lot of tactical balance, leadership, composure and of course.. Van Hanegem had a lot of passing quality especially in long passes to Johan Cruyff.,,, so.. Forever Van Hanegem... BergKamp.. in decisive games... against Brazil and Italy showed very little strong personality and leadership in these games like a ghost at all ... for sure... Bergkamp was physically limited for sure and slow too... Despite that Van Hanegem was slow too. ! in my view mate ! What do you think about Dennis Bergkamp vs Van Hanegem in general ?????
I think Bergkamp was much quicker honestly (but it's more obvious when looking at his early-years version a la Euro 92), and for a World Cup/Euros XI, although I often err towards single tournament performance more than some do I think, obviously Bergkamp has much more of a history (from Euro 92 to Euro 2000 including two World Cups). I agree Van Hanegem played a good role vs Brazil, and I can understand what you mean about his character in big games (he had both determination and composure at the same time I'd say), but I tend to think if anything his peak might have been in the 1960s (but we just can't see a lot of footage).
yes .... I liked it ... your comments ... very very nice vision ...about that ! was a wise comment . ......... Unfortunately for Dutch Football and the Dutch National Team, I mainly believe that Ruud Gullit will be the only champion captain forever or at least for another 10 years in a row without titles for the current Dutch Football Team, of course I say this speaking unfortunately for current Holland . !
....................What do you think about Arie Haan ...Rijsbergen .... Hulshoff vs Frank Rijkaard in general ???? ....... Honestly.. I prefer Haan Rijsbergen or Hulshoff than Rijkaard. Why ??? They had much more mobility and agility to cover defensively. explosion and change of direction much more effective, agile and quick than the Rijkaard Rijkaard sometimes lost his concentration very easily, the mental part and the quickest responses in matches where he wasn't playing very well... he fluctuated a lot in the mental part of the game, similar to Ronaldinho Gaucho in this regard. especially when he wasn't very good and very heated in the matches... But when he was very good he really destroyed the match... due to his very high and alienated bodybalance with good technique too... and skill. I saw this when I watched the entire Ajax games... in 1984/85... although he was tall and without much agility for sure... but he was certainly skilled and had good technique too.
I don't have a lot of time right now, and later I should update more on IceBlood's thread, mate, but interesting thoughts and observations (maybe Puck also has some ideas about it). I would pick Rijkaard over them all that you mentioned I'm pretty sure (as defender it's more of a close call or argument maybe though indeed as compared to as overall player albeit I know Haan was versatile and played midfield too a lot, but for sure at Euro 88 he did extremely well as defender in general I think, both in defending and in possession).
What I can quickly add though too is a comment re: Rijkaard and Vieira (since Wiliam probably it seems like you rate Vieira higher actually which is for sure interesting for a Milan/Gullit/Van Basten/Dutch football fan): actually I always felt (and probably still feel) that purely as midfielders they would be pretty closely comparable for best/general level in prime years (I know Wiliam, from some of those proposed ideas of XIs where you are lining up all-time players that you also think Vieira would in theory be a good player to use in defence himself...and the idea probably crossed my mind too in the past at some point). Rijkaard was a bit more compact and I think therefore could be a bit more easily reactive to things at times (loose balls etc), and was probably a better tackler (though Vieira could make slide tackles using those long legs). Rijkaard also a bit more dynamic when going forwards I think overall. Vieira was a better ball juggler and 'solo skill' player I'd say for example though. In passing overall maybe I'm not clear on who I think was better.... Anyway, I'm keeping it brief at the moment. Maybe I should give a quick idea of an All-Time France XI (which I often changed my mind about though) and a Euros/World Cup version too to keep the discussion on topic! All-Time: Bats; Amoros, Blanc, Desailly, Lizarazu; Tigana, Vieira; Platini, Zidane; Kopa; Henry Euros/World Cup: Bats; Thuram, Blanc, Desailly, Lizarazu; Tigana, Vieira; Platini, Zidane; Kopa; Fontaine I kept them both pretty similar as it turns out, using 'Magic Square + Trequartista' i.e 4-2-2-1-1....
................... well, a few times when I saw interviews with Patrick Vieira he said: that he was a super fan of Frank Rijkaard... similar to Thierry Henry who was a super fan of Marco van Basten, he even wore the number 12 shirt in honor of Van Basten from Euro-Cup 1988. the number 14 in clubs by JOhan Cruyff's influence on the european Football . as a player and coach too ! Patrick Vieira and Rijkaard, despite being very tall, really didn't have much agility and mobility, without moving very quickly and aggressively to move the them human- body ... but But they both aggressively disarmed for sure tackles harder and stronger ( very long legs ) ..... They were surprisingly skilled players with a lot of body balance, controlling the game.. Dictating the pace of the match . If I had these videos from Ajax 1984-85... I could make a video showing Rijkaard's real ability... it was really insane... around from 90 the attribute (dribbling ) in the winning eleven 6. 7 . 8 . 9
.................. France All time XI GK- FABIEN BARTHEZ ....RB- THURAM CD- MAKELELE CD- DESAILLY LB- JONQUET DM - PATRICK VIEIRA DM- TIGANA OH MICHEL PLATINI OH - KOPA OH - ZIDANE CF- THIERRY HENRY