Interesting Best XI

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by Excape Goat, Aug 30, 2005.

  1. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    AC Milan

    Italian XI

    -----------------Prati------------Rivera---------------------

    Albertini-----------------------------------------------Donadoni

    -----------------Pirlo------------Benetti---------------------

    Maldini---------Baresi-----------Nesta----------Costacurta

    ------------------------------Rossi------------------------------

    Subs: Inzaghi, Gattuso, Trapattoni, Tassotti, Rosato, Buffon

    Foreign IX

    --------------Nordahl----------Van Basten----------------

    Gren----------------------------------------------------Schiaffino

    -----------------Liedholm------------Gullit--------------------

    Schnellinger---Rijkaard--------Desailly------------Cafu

    ----------------------------Dida--------------------------------

    Subs: Altafini, Shevchenko, Kaka, Boban, Seedorf,

    Once again only one foreign keeper
     
    msioux75 repped this.
  2. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    He is interchangeable with Vidal or Zidane. Zidane's place in the team is not 100% for me.
     
  3. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Well, the thing is to what extent Wales or Northern Ireland counts as 'foreign'. Overseas players were effectively banned until 1978 but not them.

    One second thing is you might overrate certain foreigners. Schmeichel was great but very arguably less imperious or flawless as remembered. Similarly, Ashley Cole was perhaps better than whatever foreign left back has ever played in the league.

    Finally, there is the issue of longevity vs peak. Stam vs Dunne. Dunne is over Stam (on longevity I presume) but Van Dijk is in the Liverpool XI? Hmmmm....
     
  4. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    I am fine going either way with Dixon or Sansom. Cole for Copping on the bench works.

    Where would you try to make for George, Parlour, or Rocastle? They were all on my radar but I could not find a place for them.
     
  5. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    If I could not include other British Isle players it would be really hard to make "Foreign" teams for English clubs

    Peak vs longevity is tough in all these cases. Like I said with Liverpool's current players getting into the teams there is some assumption of continued success. Stam has 2.5 season with Man U...
     
    PuckVanHeel repped this.
  6. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Internazionale

    Italian XI

    ---------------Meazza------------Boninsegna---------------

    Corso-----------------------------------------------------Berti

    ---------------Mazzola------------Locatelli---------------------

    Facchetti------Picchi-----------Bergomi----------Burgnich

    ------------------------------Zenga------------------------------

    Subs: Altobelli, Domenghini, Guarneri, Baresi, Allemandi, Toldo

    Foreign IX

    ------------------------------Nyers------------------------------

    Skoglund-------------------------------------------Jair da Costa

    --------Matthaus--------Suarez------------Zanetti--------------

    Brehme--------Samuel--------Cordoba----------Maicon

    --------------------------Julio Cesar-------------------------

    Subs: Ibra, Ronaldo, Cambiasso, Sneijder, Lucio,
     
  7. Ariaga II

    Ariaga II Member

    Dec 8, 2018
    I wonder what London-born David O'Leary thinks about being on the foreigners list? Hope he can get a work permit. :D

    Will the Player of the Season -threads be continuing anytime soon?
     
  8. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Too much for me to deal with, I don't have enough motivation to lead the exercise.
     
  9. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Real Madrid

    Spanish XI

    ----------------Raul------------Butragueno------------------

    Michel-----------------------------------------------Amancio

    -----------------Pirri------------Gento---------------------

    Camacho---------Hierro-----------Quincoces----------Ramos

    ------------------------------Casillas------------------------------

    Subs: Santillana, Juanito, Helguera, Zarraga, Sanchis, Zamora

    Foreign IX

    --------------Puskas----------Di Stefano----------------

    Ronaldo--------------------------------------------Figo

    -----------------Zidane------------Modric--------------------

    Carlos-------Santamaria--------Pepe------------Marcelo

    ----------------------------Navas------------------------------

    Subs: Sanchez, Benzema, Redondo, Kroos, Stelike, Dominguez
     
  10. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Barcelona

    Spanish XI

    ---------------------------Samiter------------------------------

    Basora-----------------------------------------------Suarez

    --------Xavi-------------Busquets------------Iniesta--------

    Segarra---------Migueli-----------Pique----------Puyol

    ------------------------------Ramallets------------------------------

    Subs: Cesar, Pedro, Guardiola, Sergi, Olivella, Zubizarreta

    Foreign IX

    ----------------Messi----------Kubala----------------

    Ronaldinho------------------------------------------Stoichkov

    -----------------Cruyff------------Laudrup--------------------

    Abidal-------De Boer--------Koeman---------Alves

    ----------------------------Plattko------------------------------

    Subs: Rivaldo, Evaristo, Deco, Neeskens, Mascherano, ter Stegen
     
  11. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Atletico Madrid

    Spanish IX

    ------------------Peiro-----------Aragones----------------

    Collar------------------------------------------Ufarte

    -----------------Gabi--------------Adelardo--------------------

    Calleja-------Arteche----------Capon-----------Rivella

    ----------------------------Resino------------------------------

    Subs: Garate, Escudero, Silva, Koke, Juanfran, Molina


    Foreign XI

    ----------------Carlsson----------Griezmann----------------

    Futre------------------------------------------------------Ayala

    ---------------Simeone------------Ben Barek-------------

    Luis--------------Godin-----------Pereira----------Griffa

    ------------------------------Oblak------------------------------

    Subs: Costa, Pantic, Simao, Gimemez, Heredia, Courtois
     
    msioux75 repped this.
  12. spoonman

    spoonman Member

    Sep 6, 2005
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Van de Sar played for Juventus
     
    Tom Stevens repped this.
  13. tony-soprano37

    Dec 5, 2008
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    England

    I think in dutch league that doesn’t go. At least for the top 3 clubs.

    Its hard to make an Ajax side with foreigners (allthough they had good ones Maxwell, Ibrahimovic, lerby, Suarez, aldewereld, Vertonghen, vasovic to name a few) that could compete with the likes of Cruyff, bergkamp, van Basten, neeskens, keizer, Krol, suurbier, Seedorf, Davids, Rijkaard, van der sar.

    Same Goes for Feyenoord. Dutch team would very easily outranks a foreigners team

    PSV would be a little more eaqual i think, foreigners like Gerets, heintze, nillis, Romario, Ronaldo, lerby
    And dutch like van Beveren, Gullit, Koeman, van der kerkhof, van bommel, stam, van Nistelrooy.
    But still the dutch team would be stronger overall
     
    Tom Stevens repped this.
  14. tony-soprano37

    Dec 5, 2008
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Yashin over grosics.
    Mcgrain over szymanowski.
    Skip Hansen.
    Midfield from left to right coluna, masopust, Cruyff, bozsik.
    Leftwing : dragan dzajic
    Striker : eusebio
    Rightwing ; best

    This team imo far better and complete then the one you mentioned.

    But in all honesty i think we can make like 4 teams equally as strong.
    Portugal, scotland, hungary, Holland have had a fair share of worldclass player and absolute legends.
    Whilst ocwirk, bican, sindelear, hannapi for austria. Ireland and northern ireland can contribute jennings, Keane, best, blanchflower. Yugoslavia have had Some worldclass player same as sweden, Soviet union and danmark.
    Figueroa from chili.
    Chumpitaz and cubillas for Peru
    Valderama for Colombia
    John Charles for Wales
     
  15. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    Which partially at least reflects the lack of outright dominance of the top sides in England and partially the quality of foreigners that clubs have been able to sign.

    What is odd in England compared to most other top nations is the fact that many of the best ever English players (Matthews, Moore, Finney, Banks, Shilton, Wright, Lineker, Gascoigne etc) did not play for the sides who have been most dominant (United, Liverpool and Arsenal).
     
    Tom Stevens repped this.
  16. tony-soprano37

    Dec 5, 2008
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Thats true.

    Also for such a big nation they produced relatively few true ATG players compared to other nations with such a large population
    Lineker was worldclass but not all time great for example.
     
  17. tony-soprano37

    Dec 5, 2008
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Only 4 defensive players. I would put neeskens in midfield
     
  18. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #1393 PuckVanHeel, Nov 20, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2019
    Lineker was a great England player, more so than a great club player, in my perception. He scored against us at euro 1988 ;) His number of goals against the elite and the second tier (like 1980s Poland for example) is impressive.

    If you look at what he could do with a football, or whether he had tactical sophistication, then no, and that is why the story has become he is a better television host than footballer.

    Voetbal International placed 7 English players in their all time top 100 (same as Germany, but their two best players were ranked ahead of the highest ranked English player). Only Brazil, Italy, Netherlands and Argentina had more. France has 6 players in, one less, but again with their two best ranked higher than the best ranked English player.

    On the other hand, if you look at Pele his 'official' 2004 attempt then indeed England are behind countries of 'comparable' sizes, but with twice as many as Spain. England is much closer to Spain in population than it is to France, Germany or Italy (also funny is Pelé clearly liking our country a lot).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIFA_100

    Keep in mind: the big England is 28 million people short of Germany. England + Benelux = Germany.
     
    comme repped this.
  19. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    This equation is impacted by two things in particular:

    - Do we take the player they were or the player they became. If we take the level they reached for Ajax then Ibrahimovic isn't a real option while Litmanen is a lock (you forgot him).

    - Again a thing of longevity vs peak. If we take the peak of Suarez (1.5 years) instead of the entirety of his stay it becomes different. Then Chivu (you forgot him too) is again a much better choice as Suarez is for this.

    In theory a foreign XI could give Ajax and PSV a run for their money. We shouldn't make the mistake to bring the entire career into the equation. Nilis at PSV (for PSV...) was seriously good and not too far removed (if at all, possibly) from Van Nistelrooij for instance.
     
  20. tony-soprano37

    Dec 5, 2008
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Thats true compared to germany italy and france they have lesser population.
    And i was not downgrading them.
    But i mean truly ATG the have so few.
    Charlton, moore, finney, Matthews, robson, Scholes, banks, Edwards.
    Thats iT. Imho.
    Gascoigne, hoddle, wright, shilton those kinda players where absolute worldclass but just come short of ATG.
    Compare that with a small nation like Holland we have the same amount who can be ranked amongst the ATG

    As for Pelé as a player he was superb. But his ranking of players doesn’t say much to me. I once saw his list of 125 greatest players ever and since then i don’t take his opinion serious.

    As for germany you are right.also not to much ATG
    Their strenght always have been team effort.
    They also have very few players (for such a large nation) who can truly rank amongst the ATG (matthaus, Müller, Beckenbauer, Breitner, netzer, schnellinger) maybe i forget 1 or 2.
     
  21. tony-soprano37

    Dec 5, 2008
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Indeed chivu and litmanen i forgot. Well if we make the equation then iT should be in the form they had when playing for Ajax.
    So Ajax Cruyff, Rijkaard, Krol, van Basten etc etc and Ajax level foreigners.
    Like i said PSV foreigners are closer to PSV dutch but a foreign Ajax 11 just wouldn’t make iT against a dutch Ajax 11
    At least in my opinion is no match.

    Especially midfield and attack the dutch outranks the foreigners
     
  22. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #1397 PuckVanHeel, Nov 21, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2019
    That is highly subjective and for linguistic or cultural reasons English players have an advantage.

    But there are 'objective' indicators showing we have done well. Ranging from the national team results (Elo ranking, number of semi finals, number of wins against the reigning European or world champion), the amount of players who started in three or more CL finals, the number of players with 30+ goals in Europe, the number of players with five or more league titles in a top five/seven league and so on. In the last 15 years some of our players have been crucial for winning Champions Leagues (with crucial interventions) with a few receiving man of the match designations too (if not in the final like Robben, Vd Sar or Sneijder, then not far behind or MOTM in the semis). It doesn't always get the correct recognition, such as the FFT or Independent list. See also the 'FinkTank' list. The number one is RvP (until 2017, ahead of Rooney) and Vd Sar is #2 of his team (in the league) when he won the CL that 2007-08 season.

    If you look at the ESM team of the month thing (since 1995-96) then on a per capita base Netherlands and Spain are evidently the best two. Then before that (before Bosman) we won 6 European Cups, with Italy 8, England 8, Spain 7 equal or ahead of this. One might say the best English players don't always play for clubs that could win the Champions League, hence also the national team results (Elo, semi finals, beating reigning champions) are part of the 'objective' comparison. Equally, as you noted, those European Cups were to a lesser extent dependent on foreign players.

    To be the best player does not equal the best judgements, and he has said stupid things on various subjects, but at times it goes too much the other way. I stick my hand in the fire he still has a better knowledge and (intuitive) feel for the sport than the average football supporter, in particular the average supporter of his own country. That is also what Cruijff, Gullit etc. have said in the past. Not that they knew him particularly well but sometimes they had a dinner with him for example.

    https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x44og6e
     
  23. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Last remark: it's funny you name Scholes among those since he is usually one of those 'controversial' names. But yes, he always had his supporters and fans (F. de Boer in 2001 giving high praise, JC14 at euro 2000, Gullit in 1997). In some cases there are wildly different ideas about someone's standing and importance. Has Edwards done really enough to be really among the 10-15 best in history?
     
  24. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Arsenal
    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nobody who had that short a career can lay that claim.
     
    PuckVanHeel repped this.
  25. tony-soprano37

    Dec 5, 2008
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Depends on criteria.
    George best career was actually over at 28
    But pure for talent he ranks amongst the best ever

    I also judge players on potential/ability.
    I know that that is difficult because its subjective.
    Trophees won is not everything because edpecially in the past players where loyal to their club.
    If i should rank for example Tom finney only by trophees won then he would rank way to low
     

Share This Page