Insulting talk from Tornberg

"After the season, we will see what we did well and try to improve on it next year."


That is pretty funny.
Worse record, lower attendance, less merchandise.
Gosh, how ya gonna improve on that??
Might as well hoist the sign at Gillette...

..."Mission Accomplished!"

 

Frank...

Honestly, seriously... what did you expect him to say? Do you think any g.m. of any sports league is going to be frank and honest of a team's situation, especially when it's elss than satisfactory?

As much as Craig may know that the team's in trouble, or as much as he may genuinely hold out hope that the Revs can somehow find a way to salvage their season, do you honestly believe he's going to offer an opinion that suggests anything other that support for the club?

THIS IS WHAT HE IS PAID TO DO!

I read his comments in today's Globe, and saw it for what it was, putting a good spin on a difficult situation. I may not agree with what he says, and in fact, I don't, but I respect the position he's in and why he needs to say these things.

Again, this being understood, Craig may genuinely feel that there's enough "positives" to justify his faith, and I can't fault him for that -- maybe five or six years ago I'd maintain a similar attitude, but I'm well too jaded and disillusioned to buy such comments at this point lock, stock an barrell.

Do the Revs have a chance at this point? Mathematically, statistically, yes, but the odds of realizing that chance are far to slim for me to invest myself in emotionally -- it makes it easier to adjust to disappointment that way.

I hope the Revs finish on a strong note to prove something to themselves, let alone their supporters, and don't really care whether they make the playoffs or not at this point -- the effort, rather than the result, is more important to me at this point.

The Magpie

 

I wanna party like it's 1999!

Well said, Magpie. What is Craig supposed to say, "we sucked so bad in a must game that I don't see why we are even bothering to play the remaining 3 games?" Well, that does pretty much sum up how I feel right now...

So if the Revs win their next 3 games, this is what has to happen:

Chicago will lose at least one, since the last game is head-to-head. The Fire can do no better than a draw and a loss to Columbus in their 2 other games. We would be even on points, but we would win the tie-breaker.

Can we count on Columbus to do us any favors? Now that it has come down to that, maybe some people will realize just how bad things are.

Tom

 

Well Frank, have you called Craig? He has asked you to call him. His is willing to spend his time discussing the franchise with you. Take the high road, and engage the Revs in a constructive dialogue about the issues that are obviously so important to you. Become part of the solution - otherwise, your posts are worthless.

The Revs main problems are on the field right now, and I hold the players responsible for their substandard performance. There is quality on this roster (Twellman, Ralston, Noonan, Joseph), but the players just have not been executing. That is not Craig's fault, IMHO.

 

Don't agree 100% - The Revs have a lot of problems off the field as well.

If the Revs make the playoffs, make it to the Finals, heck even win the whole dang thing - all of these off the field issues will still be there. There will not suddenly be a huge increase in season ticket sales, replica shirts will not fall out of the sky, etc.

Like JW said, declining attendance, increasing prices, no merchandise.

In terms of on teh field, the Revs absolutely need to make some serious roster/salary cap decisions for next year. The Revs need some impact players that can set the tone. These players will not come from the draft, so the Revs have got to do their homework. Paging, mr gulati?

 

Absolutely - but in terms of attendance, and especially the 300K one-time visits that the Revs want in 2005, a last place team is a much tougher sell. And how many people are lining up to buy merchandise now? Only die-hard fans wear jerseys for a last place team. I think the lack of merchandise reflects lack of demand. If the Patriots pro shop and other retail outlets were getting bombarded with requests for Revs stuff, the shelves would be stocked ASAP. These businesses respond to demand (and a few disgruntled BigSoccer folks does not constitute demand). Why is there still 2002 Revs stuff in the Pro Shop? Probably because not enough customers have explicitly demanded otherwise. If the Revs were winning most of their home games, and Taylor Twellman or some other Rev was topping the MLS scoring chart, then addressing the off-field issues would be a little easier (especially attendance). With one of the worst home records in MLS, and home performances that inspire slumber rather than passion (except for the recent 6 goal outburst against the Rapids), why would people attend games or buy jerseys? In pro sports, winning is priority one, and if a team isn't winning, and hasn't won consistently over a period of years, people become apathetic and stop paying attention.

 

Plain and simple, the Revolution's merchandising situation is a farce, and has been for a good 6-7 years. I've mentioned this story before, but when I was a season ticket holder, the first thing I did before the '97 home opener was buy a new jersey (the oval logo model by Reebok). The first game I ever went to in '96, I bought a hat. It's a natural impulse for fans (not just BigSoccer diehards) to want to wear team stuff.

I've also pointed out before that, last summer, you could buy NH Phantoms jerseys (a wide array of them, in fact) at their Manchester stadium, but you couldn't get a Rev kit at Gillette (unless you stole one from the dressing room, I suppose). You simply cannot excuse the lack of jerseys in that pro shop and at every souvenir stand in that stadium. It's below unprofessional.

(As an aside: The thing with merchandising is that, when it's done right, you don't even need a good team to sell stuff. You don't even need a particularly popular sport. Remember the hockey jersey craze of the early '90s? San Jose Sharks gear was everywhere. Snoop wore a Springfield Indians AHL sweater in a video. And the Patriots were one of the NFL's top-selling logos even before the Super Bowl wins, just because they found a design that worked. So let's not pretend that only winning teams sell stuff.)

 

I haven't had the benefit of reading the article - so, I agree that I'd expect Craig to spin but I'd also expect the Globe to take him to task.

And GMs are able to be frank and honest and say, "We suck" but they say it by firing someone and making a management change. Craig isn't ready (let alone the question of if he is able) to fire SN.

 

I agree, but the problem is that Revs don't have many true fans, the kind of fans that have the natural impluse to buy team stuff. The low attendance and TV ratings (which lately have not even cracked the bottom of the Globe's listings) seem to confirm this. And I believe the lack of fan support this year is primarily due to the team's on-field performance, and less due to the off-field problems. However, I agree that the off-field problems are non-trivial, and must be addressed in order for the Revs to be truly successful.

I agree that its a bad situation, but again, if the demand was there, I believe the jerseys would be there. If the Revs are concentrating on being a viable business, as Craig Tornberg has indicated, then I would expect them to maximize every possible revenue opportunity. Therefore, if there was significant demand for Revs merchandise, then stocking the Pro Shop and souvenier stands would be a business priority. Given that the merchandise situation is still bad, I believe that the demand is not there. However, it could also be that the Revs business has failed to execute (much like the players), and the merchanise is not there in spite of big demand. It sounds like you're saying it is the latter - you could be right. I will ask Craig about this and share his response.

The hockey jersey craze was a fashion fad that the NHL teams happily benefitted from, but I don't think it was the team's marketing folks that created the fad. And let's not pretend that there are lots of Tampa Bay Devil Ray and LA Clipper jerseys floating around. It's not only winning teams that sell stuff, but they sell a lot more.

 

The fact of the matter is that most Revs fans, even us diehards, are so disillusioned that we don't bother. We've come to EXPECT that management doesn't give a crap. We don't complain to them because we don't think it'll do any good. Some get so fed up that they've stopped going to games altogether. This disillusionment isn't something that suddenly came out of nowhere.

When I went to the doubleheader this month, I went into the pro shop looking (hoping) for a shirt. I wasn't surprised I didn't find a single XXL. I didn't expect to. I mean, why would those capitalists want to take $70 of my hard earned money? I don't expect anything from them and I'm rarely disappointed.

It's ludricrous not to stock your pro shop with Revs shirts and then say, "We'd stock them if fans bought them." Some of us WANT to buy them but are refused the opportunity. I'm insulted by this talk.

Maybe I'm only "a disgruntled" Big Soccer guy, but how many other people wanted to buy them but couldn't because, yet another year, they weren't available?

I can get a jersey of my local high school's football team easily but the only way I could get Revs jersey is to befriend one of the players.

Stuff like this, not 10,000 in the Razor, is what makes this look like a rinky-dink operation.

 

But until you complain to them, they don't have an opportunity to try and address your complaint. I complained about my experience at the first Freddie game, where my kids and I waited 40 minutes at Will Call and missed most the first half, only to find there were no more programs. Criag Tornberg's response was to apologize, spend an hour on the phone discussing this experience and every piece of feedback that I had about the franchise, and then Fed-Ex three club seats and a parking pass ($210 value). One of the things that Craig mentioned to me in an email was "Most of those I notice that have been criticizing the most - never contact me". Give them a chance on the jersey issue. If they can't/won't help, then I agree that they don't care.

I'm not trying to insult anybody, I'm just giving a reasonable opinion that demand would drive up the supply. And as I said, I could be wrong about this. The only place where I've heard complaints about the lack of jersey's is BigSoccer. And I think it is fair to say the people who have complained are disgruntled. The MS Word thesaurus tells me that disgruntled is synonomous with dissatisfied, unhappy, and displeased. Surely all of those terms apply to anyone who wanted a jersey and couldn't buy one. I'm just theorizing that there weren't enough of these people to make management stand up and notice.

I think low attendance is a bigger problem. But both are problems and need to be fixed.

 

I don't buy this excuse - where is the proof that there is no demand? What marketing survey vs risk analysis study was done? Sure the hardcore fans will buy the replicas and demand it the most, but I'm sure plenty of other people would buy the replicas if it was right there in front of their faces - in the stadium that they actually play in. Impulse buys right on game day.

Have you been to a Men or Women's international game at Gillette? The kiosks are always swamped with people buying replica shirts, t-shirts, hats - and I do not believe these are all die-hard fans - they are impulse buys. They actually run out of stuff. (and they haven't even been getting the crowds they used for these Nats games - whole other topic about what is wrong off the field)

This is what creates atmosphere(ask a Holland fan or even SKorea fan at last WC), this is what starts to create a connection between fans whether they are diehard Midnight Riders or they are the causal fan. Sure they don't sell a million, but they are selling something. As a fan, whether I am casual or die-hard, I have to be able to at least respect that.

I don't think anyone is saying we need a million shirts and we want them at every Decathalon, Sears, every website, and any other sports store. What we want is a resonable amount of merchandise for the professional team we support and someway to get it - like in the actual stadium. And there is not an exlusive connection betwen that and with what is happening on the field or in the standings.

Plus, one of the things that helps generate some buzz about about any soccer team, is the new style uniform for the new season - when will it be released, what will it look like?

That's what we are talking about here over the last couple of weeks and the recent threads, isn't it? Helping to generate some buzz about the team so that we can get 300,00 fans through the gate. I'm not saying this is the only answer, but again it's something, and I can't believe it has been completely mismanaged for the last 4 seasons by a professional sports team

I'm sorry, but if the bogus explanation is that there is no demand except for the small numbered die-hard fans, then none of the MLS teams would have any replicas to sell.

 

I don't blame Craig for putting a positive spin on the situation, but I can not understand why the front office does not have good quality merchandise available in a timely manner and how they do such a poor job communicating team news to fans.

I have little to add regarding the shirts, etc., but I am mistified how a Kraft organization would not do a better job with communicating with fans. Consider the situation with Jose Cancela. First we heard rumors of an injury that needed a week or two of rest. Then when that period past and he was still on the bench, we've heard nothing. That is crazy. He was supposed to be one of the team leaders and there he sits while the team performs poorly and still no word from the team. One could buy into the theory that SN wants a dull, plodding team that plays not to lose.

I have no issue with Brad Feldman, but that is not the same as getting the manager or GM up there. Why isn't there a coaches interview after every match?

If I owned a fledgling entertainment business, I would consider selling openness a major feature. They do it with the autographs at the end of games for the kids, they need to remember the adults.

 

How about something along the lines of: "I'm at fault...I made poor signings. I put this team together. I thought we were doing the right things. I thought we had a chance to win. But we have not, and it's my responsibility."

Taken from another GM in another sport (Allard Baird, Kansas City Royals) a week and a half ago. (Not meant to say that everything is Mr. Tornberg's fault, just to show that a GM can hold himself accountable.)

I obviously wouldn't expect Tornberg to come forth with such a harsh and direct mea culpa (although I'd respect him greatly if he did), but the fact of the matter is that this club (both on and off the field) has been in a downward trend for how many years now? However, at some point, somebody has to take accounatbility for the way things have gone. That responsibility comes from the top, and Craig, buddy, you're at the top.

Look, I realize that Craig has only been in charge for nine months and I'm more than willing to give him the time he needs to make a positive contribution (becuase let's face it, even the most perfect of perfect GMs would need more than a season to turn this boat around), but instead of the same old vagaries and (not so realistic) goals that are set, why not tell us how we're going to reach those goals?

It's certainly ok (even important) for the guys in charge to be positive in attitude, but instead of saying "We've got a 300K goal for next years, and lots of ideas on how to make it happen." I'd much rather hear "Attendance has been lacking, we're going to implement strategies X, Y, Z. We really think that implementing these strategies will bring attendances in line with past numbers and maybe even near the top of MLS." Much better to have a plan with a non-specific goal of "improvement" than a specific target but no plan.

Same theory applies for on the field problems, it's fine to be optimistic about the teams prospects, just interject a bit of realism. It's also fine (and possible) to be critical of the team without calling anyone out onto the carpet. For the GM of a team in the Revs position to be saying "we're still going to make a run for it" (not in those words, but that's the tone I got from reading) is the kind of fan-boy homerism you'd expect to find on these boards, not in the front office of the team.

I think it's perfectly reasonable for a fan of the Revs to expect to hear some kind of accountability from someone within the organization. Unfortunately, this kind of talk from the GM lacks any sense of realism. It shows an attitude of either A) taking the fans for granted or B) not giving fans the credit they deserve for being able to see these problems themselves.

There's a myriad of problems within this organization. These problems are pretty transparent, the fans know they exist. I happen to believe that fans deserve some sort of accountability for them.

PS-No, I haven't called Craig and talked to him. Why? Well, to be quite honest I don't have any solutions for him, I think he's in a tough spot in regards to turning this franchise around, but that's why he's gets paid to be the GM and I pay to go to the games.

 

I don't think Craig Tornberg makes player personnel decisions.

 

I didn't think he did, I only posted the quote to refute the assertion that the only public face a GM could exhibit was one of blind optimism toward his team.

 

The Revs need a couple of entertaining players period. Not only does this team suck, it's boring.

27 games played - 6 wins. In the words of a famous football coach previously employed by the Krafts -- you are what you are.

And if you've won 6 out of 27 games you just plain suck.

It's fixable, but to try to sugarcoat this in anyway just undermines one's credibility. I understand Craig has to put a positive spin on things, but given the way this season has progressed, he's better off just telling it like it is or saying nothing.

 

FYI - the pony tails been gone for a long time

He also thinks "Big Soccer" is a joke though he does seem to know what's being said.

The team does suck and they are usually boring. If they want 300K, they better generate some excitement & they can't do it with this bunch. Craig is a spin meister and BS artist and nothing more. He doesn't believe half of what he says but has to put forth the company line.

 

"How about something along the lines of: "I'm at fault...I made poor signings. I put this team together. I thought we were doing the right things. I thought we had a chance to win. But we have not, and it's my responsibility..."

... because the season's not done yet, because he might not be the one orchestrating player movement and signings, and how much responsibility does he bear, whether in actuality, or as a figurehead simply "taking one for the team?"

The Magpie

 

"Give them a chance on the jersey issue. If they can't/won't help, then I agree that they don't care"

I understand your point. And I might agree with it if it weren't the third (?) year in a row where the exact same problem came up.

I might send them an email. But by then, the season will be over and they'll have a new uniform next year. And the morass will begin yet again.

I can't believe there isn't enough demand to stock even a dozen shirts of each size.

You can't buy something that isn't available.

I mean, this is basic customer relations stuff. A replica jersey is pretty basic stuff for any sports franchise.

Even my local college players league baseball team, which drew a league-leading 300 fans a game, had some jerseys available. The owner was willing to make a minimal investment to cater to and keep his diehard fans.

You say the only place you've heard complaints about lack of jerseys in on Big Soccer. Maybe it's because we're the only ones left who care.

I mean, how ludicrous is it that I'm PLEADING to have a chance to part with $70 of my money but they won't give me the chance!

BS readers are the diehards. If the Revs (mis-)management is alienating the diehards who are begging to give them our money, how in heaven's name do they hope to attract 300k?

Bottom line: if they don't want my money, I'll give it to a franchise that does. I hope Rochester gets that MLS team soon!

 

Ok, I sent the email today (even though I shouldn't have to beg). Hope it gets a favorable response. If it does, I'll make an 'eat my words' post.

 

I think many people on this list have had at least one long conversation with Craig over the years. It is always a great conversation but, speaking for myself, I've never felt anything was going to change because I had complained to him.

You had a good experience with Craig but do you think that you could call him every week and get free tickets? At some point he'll be back to just having nice conversations with you but his gift bucket will be empty.

My main complaints in order of highest to lowest priority:

1. The team sucks - year in and year out - I'm tired of watching a team that sucks. (Note: The REVs won the eastern division and went to MLS cup on 12 wins, the lowest win total for an eastern conference winner in history. The next lowest was Chicago last year with 15 wins [9 more win points]. That was not much of an improvement but rather the rest of the division having a really suck year while the REV's maintained a consistent "suck" level).

2. I hate the Gilette parking and stadium entry crews. I feel like I'm trying to pass through "Checkpoint Charlie" at the height of the cold war.

3. I'm fed up with the concession prices.

I don't think Craig can do anything about my number one priority. And frankly, I'd probably be able to overlook 2 and 3 (I have been for some time) if they didn't just suck so much.

 

The merchandise question is an old one. It's the same thing that has been going on for years. The first time around, the Revs said there were "supplier problems." OK, that happens sometimes. The second and third years, it's the same thing... And to say that there is no demand is disingenuous at best. How do they know there isn't demand? Tons of people here say they'd buy a $70 jersey at the start of the season if it were available, and I am inclined to believe them.

But it's always the same story. If they managed to get the 2005 jersey design out there, it would give the post-season a little buzz. If they actually had them available by December 1 (you know, the time of year when people are looking for any excuse to spend money), I bet the Bottom-Liners would be pleasantly surprised. But that has never happened, and frankly I would be shocked if it ever did.

One note about this thread, the print version of yesterday's O Globo had more quotes that didn't make it into the online version posted here. I don't recall the exact quotes, but one was along the lines of Craig saying "This season hasn't been a total loss. From a business point of view we are doing a lot better." (something along the lines of what he had said to someone in another thread).

So let me get this straight: he is talking to an audience of "casual fans" who really only pay attention to how the team did last game, not policy wonks like us who can write a doctoral dissertation on the differences between an allocation and a discover player and how they affect the cap in an expansion year. These "casual fans" might notice that there are a lot fewer fans than there used to be, and would be scratching his head about the "business" comment. Maybe the conclusion a "casual fan" might draw is that if the Revs are making more money with fewer people, they must really be gauging the fans. And since the team has been terrible, all the more reason not to go...

Tom

 

It's not an excuse - it's me trying to figure out why the situation is what it is, and putting forth a theory. I didn't do a survey or analysis. I don't have proof. It's just a theory. And as I've said twice before, I could be wrong.