Indisciplina (Bautisazo y Urracazo)

https://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1568671&page=41
Vidal nuevamente involucrado en una supuesta indisciplina (en una disco de Torino el domingo 11), pese a que la Juve lo negó.
Sea o no sea cierto, creo que no esto no ayuda en nada para que Vidal pueda volver (al menos este año) a la Roja.

 

This is what I mean.

If you had to name five [current] Chilean players with the attributes that we've been discussing here (those that fit under the discipline category), who would they be?

 

Here, once again you`re mixing issues, Mental fortitude as you call it, is completely diferent than discipline, and having one of them doesn`t give you any certainty that you`ll also have the other one. A strong mental player could be completely indisciplined, and a weak one could be among the best disciplined players.

Valdivia, in fact, is probably one of the most strongest mentally speaking players that we have, reasons why in the teams he plays in, he usually takes upon himself the role of leader among his pairs, an issue that bothers greatly almost all the coaches who have had to be in charge of him (ask Scolari or Luxemburgo, about the headaches he has given them on their time in Palmeiras), and as adversity present themselves in the pitch, Valdivia has the mental strength to overcome himself and turn things the other way round (an issue that no other player in our NT can do, maybe Suazo has that power, but no one else has it, within themselves), but on the other hand he is an incorrigible lose cannon, and from time to time, he will make one of his typical numbers, as discipline for him, is like teaching a donkey how to talk (maybe the donkey will talk first, before Valdivia even starts to learn what the word "discipline" means, ).

 

No argument on Valdivia. Also, you’re right about the difference – mental toughness is not completely synonymous with discipline, but there is a connection there, as posteador pointed out.

Still, we are underdeveloped in three major areas.

1.
We need players who are not only mentally strong but also mentally mature; players who find an extra 10% in the important matches and players who can go one game without getting yellow carded or sent off. We lack players with both of these psychological attributes.

2.
We need genuine team leaders who will lead by example; ideally, leaders who are disciplined in all areas, who will stand tall when our stars throw the towel, and who will encourage their team-mates and guide them when necessary.

3.
We need reliable and resilient defenders; defenders who can win their share of one-on-one contests, who can actually communicate and cover each other, and who can attack the ball, rather than the player, when defending set pieces. [I am feeling more confident with Marcos Gonzalez in the back-line now, but this is still an area for development]

We have conceded 10 goals in the first three rounds of the qualifiers, and [let’s be honest] they could easily have been 15 or more, given the horrendous defending from our defensive line and, in general, our entire team.

We are limited in all three of the aforesaid areas. This is reality, whether el guaton Borghi acknowledges these deficiencies or not.

 

No, I wasn't confused, but I realise I may have confused you as I made a poor choice of words by using 'discipline', as Zasal said, this word can apply both to in-match discipline and out of the pitch (personal life) 'discipline'. Which, as you well put it, are not the same thing. I'll talk about strong 'mental' player from now on to avoid confusion.

Valdivia certainly has one of the strongest personalities, if not THE strongest personality of the team (except maybe Pinilla, who thinks of himself as the second coming of Salas and Zamorano)... but I have my doubts this can equate to mental strength. For me, a player with mental strength will not fall into petty provocations as easily as Valdivia does, he has been known to lash out elbows and petulant kicks to other players when things don't go his way. I'd rather he responds by playing better. In his defence I will say this, he DOES get provoked... A LOT.

Mentally strong players? I like Marcos Gonzalez, I feel I could rely on him holding the last 5 minutes of a cup final. So I am not accused of using Universidad de Chile players as an example, I will also say I like the mentality of Claudio Bravo, he's had a rough patch lately, but he is level headed in victory and defeat... he also seems very cool in penalty situations, the only thing I don't like about him is his lack of trust in his own defenders, but I think this has more to do with technical instructions, I believe Bielsa taught him to play in a sweeper-keeper role. It's interesting you mention Suazo, he is a player who is usually considered of poor discipline outside the pitch... but on the pitch, more often than not, he is a pure professional, his current limitations are more a matter of age than anything else. This is what I care about the most, as in crunch-time matches, it is players like these who get us though.

Perhaps it is no coincidence that these players are all comparatively old. Perhaps Chilean players mature closer to their 30's... I don't know, I'm no psychologist, but I have to wonder why a guy in his mid 20's can't behave like an adult.

 

Good points. I have a question for the forum on this first one. Can this be taught? How much is genetic, how much is taught at junior/senior level of their profesional careers?

I'd say that whilst genes play a part, it is most certainly taught and can/should, be addressed more in youth academies. Not sure if you can teach it once the player has turned pro. I'd say the player then learn and mature from own experience.

 

For the most part, yes it can be taught by psychology. However a player who naturally has these qualities will always be slightly ahead.

 

What will these "tests" entail? Just interviews with shrinks?

 

I don't even think you need any fancy psychology, just a little better man management. Get rid of the bad habits at an early age... I don't think we care to be honest, which is a shame cause they could save that player loads of problems later in his career...

 

Me gustó el artículo, buena lectura.

 

Milan have Zlatan on their ranks: as talented as Messi and CR on his day but for the most part a serious headcase.

This test has its flaws.

 

Buen aporte.

So it looks like Colo-Colo would be ahead of the curve in this one. We will se how much it pays off. I wish la U looked into this as well... we have the facilities, all we need is a bit more personel to take care of this side of things.

 

Generally speaking, I agree with you on Marcos Gonzalez and Humberto Suazo.

Marcos Gonzalez: arguably, the calmest and most level-headed player we have at the moment; adds height and composure to the defence; is consistent; big game player.

Claudio Bravo: while I believe that Borghi should have benched him indefinitely after his second poor performance at the Copa America, I think that his errors (e.g. not knowing when to come off his line) are sometimes compounded by the mistakes of our defenders. That said, he should still be challenged for his position and captaincy (I think that a player other than the keeper is more suited for the role of captain as he is closer to the action and can take charge from there when needed). My opinion could change if I see him deliver first-rate performances behind a defence consisting of Marcos Gonzalez, Ponce and maybe Contreras.

Humberto Suazo: couldn’t agree more – as hard-working a forward as you’ll ever see, and doesn’t get enough credit for this; his recent dry spell has been largely due to lack of good supply; of the players in our final third, the only one who can provide him with the service he needs is Valdivia; also a big game player.

This would be a good time to mention that distinction that some of us referred to recently – guys like Valdivia, Medel and Vidal are what some would call mentally confident in the sense that they can act as game winners or savers in crucial moments, but they are also mentally immature in that they lack self-control when agitated or taunted by opposition players. Medel appears to be the most improved player of the three in this aspect if one looks at his recent form for Sevilla, although it’s hard to tell if this is a reliable indicator. For me, Vidal, who lives and dies by his style, is the most extreme case and erratic of the three.

It’s a good question and one that deserves some thought. If it is genetic, then I’d say that it’s genetic for a very small fraction of players. On the whole, I think that it’s conditioned and socialised from a young age, and also gradually embedded into Chilean football culture. From here, I’d bet that only a few players can out-grow the habit and reach mental maturity.

I’d also say that it depends a bit on personality type – for those here familiar with the MBTI personality theory, some types like Sensor-Perceivers (‘Entertainers’) (e.g. I’m assuming, Valdivia, Vidal & Pinilla), significant mental growth (maturity) would be unlikely if not achieved during adolescence. I’d say that these types – generally impulsive – make up about two fifths to half of our national team. But, that’s just my informed opinion and estimated guess; nothing more.

 

lol. its kinda like we've begun to discuss these players as if they're machines, and have over analyzed the mental aspects of the game.

At the end of the day you need your best players to be your best players. We're not going to field a team of astronauts if they can't kick the ball.

And i think you'd find that the vast majority of professional athletes have the focus, mental strength and discipline you'd expect of them as athletes. the 'indisciplina' problem is about who they are as PEOPLE, not athletes

for me, being disciplined on the field and off the field are two totally different issues. there are guys like John Terry, Ibra and Carlos Tevez and many others who are problematic outside of the field but on it are composed and disciplined. Then you have guys who are perfectly fine off the field but are undisicplined on it like Rooney and sooo many others.



To me the discussions of off field 'indisciplina' as this thread intended, is really more of a discussion as to what type of persons the guys are, and not what kind of footballer they are.

Different things completely.

Other sports, specifically baseball and basketball because they are so statistically testable, have showed us that things like being 'clutch' are overblown perceptions that fans and media have.....

So when it was mentioned that we'd prefer having this player in a cup final, or this one in this particularly tense situation...... i think the answer is that you don't know how anyone would react until they are in that situation (who woulda thought Zidane would flip out and cost his team a WC) ........ your best bet is simply to go with the best footballers generally

 

Exactly, that "should be" the best option, but some seem to give too much importance of whatever these guys do outside of the field, and seem to forget or not give any importance on what they can contribute to the team in it, instead.

 

You’ve made your point about how they are two different things.

You’re right in the sense that no one knows for certain how individual players will respond to the pressures of a final or important game with something at stake. But, managers can gamble on the ones who are more reliable in big moments. These guys can be rated by how well they’ve passed previous tests of tenacity and composure. Someone like Suazo gets a tick for this; he gets unfairly criticised at times, but he delivers when it matters (e.g. the 2010 qualifiers, where 7 of his 10 goals were away goals).

If you seriously believe that no one knows how players will react in such a situation, I would challenge you to ask Uruguayans their opinion on the matter. Going into big games or finals, I’d say that they know exactly how to respond to the occasion. Have you ever wondered why they have 15 Copa America titles and we have zero?

 

Your example of Uruguay is an excellent one. To me more than just a "reaction" it is a case of the idiosyncracy of the Uruguayan people. Chilean idionsyncrasy is different, perhaps we are more easy going, friendly and party animals. Tough guys like Bielsa who can kick our butts into place, can do wonders.

 

I think I need to clarify a couple of things.

I don't think anyone here believes for a moment we need to build a teams of Astronauts or military conscripts, it is as foolish as making a team full 100m sprinters (physical), or a team full of ball jugglers (skill), so enough with these silly extrapolations. All I wanted to point out is that the mental aspect is something that we seem to outright ignore (unlike the other two) and IMO deserves a little more attention. We have made great advances in the other two, I don't see why we can't work a bit more on the first.

Secondly, I would be the first to admit that skill and technique is the most important aspect, followed by physical fitness. This, however, does not mean we should shrug our shoulders on the mental aspect. In modern football everyone can make strong and skilled footballers and with competition getting closer and tighter, we need to find every little way to distance ourselves from the rest. This includes mental coaching.

Back in the day everyone laughed at Brazil for implementing special diets for footballers and carry their own medical staff around, but now it is common throughout the world and a basic component to keep a physically fit team. The mind is also a muscle and it can be trained.

Last but not least... I realize now I have started a topic unrelated to the original 'discipline' (i.e. off-pitch discipline), I didn't realize we were only allowed to talk about the first and not the second (in-match discipline)... originally I thought they might be more closely related, but as Zasal pointed out, the reality of this connection is not so strong. We have the case of Suazo for example, who is known for his off-the-pitch antics but, on the important matches, he is always there and I can't remember the last time he has been red carded.

My opinion on off-pitch discipline is fairly straightforward. What they do on their free time is none of our business, I may condone it on a personal level but my opinion is irrelevant, those are private matters that should be solved amongst the family and/or friends. All that matters is that they show up for training in appropriate condition and, more importantly, show up for the important matches. All the rest is tabloid fodder.

 

Good post. Some thoughts on what youv'e said

1. sorry for the silly extrapolation, it was a joke

2. I wonder the extent to what you say remains true about our NT playesr. I mean without a doubt this 'mental aspect' can be a problem in relation to confidence or fear. It applies to Argentina when they go to La Paz. It has often applied to us in relation to Argneinta, Brazil, Uruguay etc... the fear of the competition or the altitude or the situation has overwhelmed our players and prevented them from functionoing well on the pitch.

Not to say that this has been 100% overcome at all levels, but i don't see it as a problem with our full NT......... I think the players that came from Borghi's Colo Colo, Sulantuay's U20, and now from Sampaoli's U de Chile, which comprise 90% of our NT don't have this problem. we lose against Brasil and Argneitna but not for fear. I'd say that Isla, Medel, Alexis, Vidal, Suazo, Vargas, Valdivia, Jean etc... aren't scared of anyone.......

3. the other element of 'mental veracity' as it relates to soccer has to do with an ability to focus and not make dumb mistakes late in the game or in key moments...like with Brazil's medical staff and diets, there are many pro teams in many sports that employ sports psychologists. NFL teams have psychological evaluations at the Combine for potential draftees.

I've read many studies on baseball and basketball because of their quantifiability...it turns out that things like being a 'clutch' performer or 'last shot kinda guy' or having a good 'slugging percentage' are generally media and fan perceptions and nothing more...

with a few notable exceptions (Kobe, Pete Rose among them) a player's chance of making a shot or getting a hit throughout the entirety of their career are pretty much the same whether they're taking the shot with 3 seconds on the clock, or whether its the 9th inning, or the playoffs etc......

The extent to which this extrapolates to soccer is debatable, but i'm not convinced (for instance) that a player like Bravo is more likely to mess up in a huge game than a regular game....or come up big in a huge situation rather than a regular one......

there are some exceptions, some players that do flop under pressure but they're rare. Bravo can mess up in the biggest game of his life against Spain but is just as likely to make the same kind of mistake in a regular WCQ game against Peru or colombia........


i think having psychologists and all that on board is important and can help, but i don't think the weight givent o that kind of on-field stuff is all that great.

I think players need more psychological help with off-field things, like how to deal with fame, wealth, dissapointment, failure, women, children etc...this will make guys like Valdivia and Vidal better football players

4. i'm with you on the off field discipline thing......like you said, as long as they're respectful and don't speak out of line or insult the players/coaches (a la Herrera) or the national team itself (bautizazo, puerto ordazo etc..) then whatever they do off the pitch is up to them

 

I like this topic... can you tell..

I agree and I doubt any player would confess to 'fear' anyway, that would be a career suicide. Any human struggles in pressure situations, the difference is how we cope with it. With Chilean players it seems to translate into reckless abandon, overcommitting to a tackle, trying desperate long passes or eccentric dribbling when a more simple solution would suffice. Their whole world turns upside down so easily it is amazing to see. And I have seen this time and time again with Chilean teams. I don't mind loosing when we have been outplayed, but it certainly bothers me when we do ourselves no favours by loosing our form and facilitating the job for the opposition.

The mental aspect is certainly the least in comparison to the others, I agree about that. If your shooting technique is that good I would have you take our freekicks regardless of the circumstances. Matias might not be the most confident of players out there, but in an hypothetical final of the world cup, with 1 minute to go, I will give him the freekick no questions about it.

But IMO it is not negligible enough that it should be ignored. Just going back to that second point. On how Chilean players deal with pressure situations in general. Not a particular technique, like the swing of a a bat or a three pointer (which is more muscle memory than anything)... but rather the decisión making. What to do next? Should I tackle this guy from behind or just pressure him into making a mistake? Should I attempt this crazy long pass when a combination would be easier? Should I trust my companions or should I move out of position to try something of my own? This guy just elbowed me, should I elbow him back?

Because of the space, number of players and movement involved. Football is perhaps more similar to chess than baseball or basketball could ever hope to be. Some players can plan three or four moves in advance (Barcelona train in this), the options available and the time available is also greater than Basketball, which is a game of constant transitions where speed is key (you are constantly against the clock), not so much with football... this makes decisión making a crucial part of the arsenal of any pro football player.

And it is this department that suffers the most when the player is not prepared for it. Not so much his shooting or tackling technique, which as you well say, will not suffer any notable change in pressure situations, but rather the, 'when to shoot' and 'when to tackle'.

Which brings me further back to one of the original point I made a few pages back, about how automation and memorising movements can conceal some of our weaknesses in the mental department. You can be angry, scared or excited, but if you know where to move and what to do in a certain situation then the chances your emotions will affect the outcome of your decisions is minimised. This if why I will always prefer a more regimented coach... with Borghi's 'let players do their thing' philosophy... I fear this will come to bite us in the ass in pressure scenarios. Ultimately though, it will be up to the players to show up, and one would expect them to be more mature, collected and experienced, this is why I still follow our team.

Perhaps an argument can be made that, if your team is automated enough, no mental coaching will be necessary, as players will know exactly what to do regardless of the situation they are in. But IMO this is both impossible and not desirable... since too much automated movement can lead to predictable teams. Both Bielsa and Mou's teams are some of the most automated teams out there, both recognise the importante of creative variables in the game, the second more so than the first (perhaps why he is more successful), but even they can't control on-pitch discipline. Just look at Pepe or Ramos...

This is why there will always be some room for mental coaching in the game. Note that I said mental coaching and not psychology. As I feel an experienced coach can do the job just as well without any psychology shenanigans. I suppose it all boils down to passing the greatest amount of experience in the clearest manner possible to a young player.

I'm a little confused about your last paragraph though, I thought you said there was little relation between off-the-pitch discipline and on-the-pitch discipline? I'm not sure about how to deal with off-field antics, it is a delicate matter. Where does your responsibility as an employer/coach/boss end? This question transcends the field of football.... just some more questions to keep the topic going...

 

You've hit the nail on the head with this paragraph.