Incorrect restart results in goal

Discussion in 'Referee' started by Grizzlierbear, Sep 15, 2003.

  1. Grizzlierbear

    Grizzlierbear New Member

    Jul 18, 2001
    canada no it is not
    A referee incorrectly restarts with a PK for a non penal offence. A goal is scored. BEFORE the kickoff is made aware of the error. Nullifies the goal and goes back into the penalty area and has the INDFK taken from the correct spot where the infraction occured instead of the PK spot.
    Correct proceedure in trying to achieve a fair result?
    Should the goal stand? Restart Kick off?
    Should the restart be a goal kick?
    If on the INDFK the goal is scored for a second time is a protest inevitable if it decides the outcome?
     
  2. nsa

    nsa Member+

    New England Revolution; Boston Breakers
    United States
    Feb 22, 1999
    Notboston, MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'd opt for the action taken: nullify and restart with an IFK as required by the original infraction.

    I think a protest would be more likely if the kicking team failed to score on the retake.
     
  3. kevbrunton

    kevbrunton New Member

    Feb 27, 2001
    Edwardsburg, MI
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The referee is doing the right thing by nullifying the PK and doing an IFK. I don't think there is grounds for protest because that is what we are SUPPOSED to do. Perhaps not the easiest of decisions, but it's the proper thing to do.

    I'd think a protest would be more likely (and justified) if the referee didn't nullify the PK.
     
  4. jc508

    jc508 New Member

    Jan 3, 2000
    Columbus, Ohio area
    Morally, I agree with the previous posts.

    Technically, I have to disagree.

    Once the PK is take, I would think that play has been restarted. True, the ball was only in play for probably no more than a second, butit was in play once the ball was kicked forward. If the ball had struck the crossbar or had been deflected out by the keeper, play would have continued for who-knows-how-long.

    If there were a protest, I think the ref would have been found at fault. Better to delay the taking of the PK and making at least eye contact with the AR's to see if they have any info they would like to contribute before the PK kick is taken and play is restarted. Once play restarts, the ref can not change his call - even if he screwed up royally.
     
  5. Scott Zawadzki

    Feb 18, 1999
    Midlothian, VA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    My thought is that JC508 has it right. We can't change an inproper restart if we realize the restart was incorrect after the fact. The only thing to do at this point (IMHO) is to allow the goal.

    Now that a goal has been scored, I'm not sure of how we proceed once we realize how much we've screwed up the match. Is the match abandoned with a match report to follow or do we continue play and then write up a match report with full details of the incident??

    Scott
     
  6. pkCrouse

    pkCrouse New Member

    Apr 15, 2002
    Pennsylvania
    Goal counts. Next restart is a kickoff. Continue the match to conclusion if possible. File a detailed match report confessing the sin. Leave it to the league to determine the outcome. Learn a painful lesson. Do better next time.
     
  7. Alberto

    Alberto Member+

    Feb 28, 2000
    Northern, New Jersey
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I agreed with JC508, Scott and others. You can only change your mind prior to the restart. Once the penalty kick was taken, it was too late to nulify the goal.
     
  8. kevbrunton

    kevbrunton New Member

    Feb 27, 2001
    Edwardsburg, MI
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm changing my mind. I wasn't thinking in terms of the PK having restarted play. Duh. Clearly that does restart play. At this point, it's a goal and you move on -- probably filing the paperwork others have mentioned.
     
  9. Tame Lion

    Tame Lion New Member

    Oct 10, 2002
    Southern California
    "Restarted play" means "restarted play according to LOTG." A PK is not a correct restart to a nonpenal foul. Therefore, play has not been restarted [according to LOTG]. Cancel the goal and correctly restart with an IFK.

    If referee allowed KO, then the goal is cast in concrete because KO is a correct restart for a goal scored.
     
  10. jc508

    jc508 New Member

    Jan 3, 2000
    Columbus, Ohio area
    Re: Re: Incorrect restart results in goal


    Sorry, I have to disagree.

    The ball is "in play" when the ball has been "kicked and moved" forward. We may stop play again if the ball goes out of play (e.g. goal, goal kick, etc.), but the ball is now "in play." We only have until the ball is put back into play to reverse our erronious decision.

    To use your premise, the game would then never be complete since the game was restarted improperly. If the keeper would have caught the ball and punted it downfield, would the referee have been able to reverse his decision 20 minutes later? I would hate to think of how many unfinished games we have out there that people thought that they completed based on this premise.

    I'll stand by my first post on this thread.
     
  11. Tame Lion

    Tame Lion New Member

    Oct 10, 2002
    Southern California
    Two comments.
    #1 My prior statement comes from Jim Allen's Ask-A-Ref and is official USSF.
    #2 An incorrect restart followed by a correct restart [for the conditions of the second restart] freezes the incorrect restart. Thus an incorrect restart can be corrected until a correct restart occurs.

    In the scenario originally posed by Grizz, the KO (the correct restart following a goal) had not yet been taken. Therefore, the error can be reversed. If the KO had been taken, the error could not be reversed.
     
  12. whipple

    whipple New Member

    May 15, 2001
    Massachusetts
    Re: Re: Re: Incorrect restart results in goal

    jc, I think you will find that TL is on the right track, both in terms of the letter of the Law, as well as the Spirit of the Law. An improper restart does not return the ball to play.

    If a PK, when it should have been an IFK, then play has not restarted until an IFK is taken, no goal can score. If the error is discovered after a subsequent restart, such as a KO, then the game must be abandoned. Write a report and play the match again from the start.

    This is why it is so important to know your restarts.

    Sherman
     
  13. Grizzlierbear

    Grizzlierbear New Member

    Jul 18, 2001
    canada no it is not
    Re: Are we positive or is it an opinion?

    I am not sure a game is abandoned just played under protest would it not?

    What if the ball did not score on the PK but returned to play off the post and the defending team went down immediately to the other goal and scored?
    By that logic of an incorrect restart is the goal no good and we are back to the other goal for an INDFK??
     
  14. pkCrouse

    pkCrouse New Member

    Apr 15, 2002
    Pennsylvania
    That's my thinking as well Grizz. If we accept the argument that the improper PK restart doesn't nullify the need to go back to the IFK, what do we do if the PK wasn't converted and dynamic play continued? Does the referee stop play when he realizes the inaccuracy of his restart, or does he wait for the next natural stoppage? If that next stoppage is a goal for the other team, does he signal no-goal and trot back to the other end of the field to find the original IFK restart location, followed by a pack of rabid players? I'm sure we'll soon have a specific response to your specific scenario as soon as someone inevitably submits it to J.A. It just serves as a perfect example of how gray things get when the referee creates a situation that is not anticipated by the laws.
     
  15. Tame Lion

    Tame Lion New Member

    Oct 10, 2002
    Southern California
    If you award a FK to blue but point in red's direction, you fix it as soon as you realize that it was a mistake. Likewise in this case.

    The amount of time that you have is up to just before one correct restart [after the incorrect restart]. We will all agree that fixing it sooner is better than later.
     
  16. pkCrouse

    pkCrouse New Member

    Apr 15, 2002
    Pennsylvania
    TL, are you saying that if red goes ahead and puts the ball into play and then at any future time the referee realizes his mistake he should stop play and go back to the free kick for blue, so long as there hasn't been a subsequent restart? A riot would ensue.
     
  17. Gary V

    Gary V Member+

    Feb 4, 2003
    SE Mich.
    Re: Re: Are we positive or is it an opinion?

    If the goalpost or the keeper stops the incorrectly given PK, she's given you a second chance at life in this game. Yes you could go back and restart with the correct IFK. But as Gil Weber says on SocRef-L, when you find yourself in a hole, the first thing to do is stop digging.

    Now, not being cats, we don't get nine lives. A ref who gave an incorrect PK has really screwed up, and anyone who knows it will be suspect of any call from that point forward. Do you feel that swirling motion as the game goes down the sewer?

    I look at this as a massive screwup. The ref doesn't know his restarts; the AR doesn't know how to tell the ref he's messed up until too late. The only hope is to do the fairest thing possible to restore any dignity to the game. If the incorrectly given PK goes in the net, go back for the correct IFK. (Provided you do it before another restart!) If the PK misses, bless everything that's holy and go on from there, vowing to sin no more.

    And need I say, write it all up in a game report, confessing your misdeeds to all. Those in charge may be rightly indignant at your actions. But if you've given them an "out" by making the fairest restoration possible, they may be able to say that the game results stand, and avoid a reschedule. That little bit of gratitude you've generated could do much for their willingness to forgive (but not forget - you won't be that lucky - screw up again and they'll really let you have it!)
     
  18. reFnCoach

    reFnCoach Member

    Sep 18, 2003
    SoCal
    No 2nd chances

    As painful as it would be, once you've allowed that restart (PK) I don't think you can (or should) go back. As one poster wisely pointed out, once you start trying to "fix" stuff after the fact you usually end up digging a bigger and bigger hole. Start looking for where your car is in the parking lot, and apologize profusely as you make your escape after the game!!
     
  19. whipple

    whipple New Member

    May 15, 2001
    Massachusetts
    Re: Re: Are we positive or is it an opinion?

    Griz,

    As you correctly state, an improper restart is a valid basis for protest and such a protest would likely be upheld and the match results would be thrown and and the game replayed in its entirety, unless the error was corrected by the referee prior to the next restart.

    In both examples, the error would have to be corrected prior to the KO. In your second example, prior to the opposing teams KO, yes, we would be back to the other end for the proper restart. Neither goal could be allowed.

    Unless the referee corrects his error prior to the restart, the game is tainted from this point on. Either the referee abandons it when realizing his mistake, or the protest committee will abandon it for him/her, after the fact, if one of the teams files. Of course, often such errors are overlooked, referees do not submit match reports, teams don't follow through with protests, life goes on.

    Earlier this week, I worked a dual where the restart was screwed up not just once, but twice. Not a USSF match, however, and no effect on the result. Nevertheless, my partner and I had a few choice words. Sometimes you're the windshield, sometimes you are the bug.

    Sherman
     
  20. whipple

    whipple New Member

    May 15, 2001
    Massachusetts
    Re: No 2nd chances

    Not only can you go back and correct your mistake if you realize it before the next restart, you must. Check out ATR 5.13

    Sherman
     
  21. reFnCoach

    reFnCoach Member

    Sep 18, 2003
    SoCal
    Thanks

    After reading ATR5.13 (thx for pointing it out) it still didn't clarify this for me. It says that "the only decision the referee cannot change following the subsequent restart is the scoring of a goal" Since the PK is the restart, and a goal is scored, then it would seem that ATR5.13 argues against your point.
     
  22. jc508

    jc508 New Member

    Jan 3, 2000
    Columbus, Ohio area
    Fairness would seem to dictate that we cancel the PK and allow an IDFK.

    But, if we accept that we are allowed to stop play and allow an alternative restart because the restart that happened was not the correct restart, then when would the wording of Law 5 be applicable?

    Law 5 states:
    "The referee may only change a decision on realizing that it is incorrect or, at his discretion, on the advice of an assistant referee, provided that he has not restart play."

    In the original situation, if memory serves me correctly, the ref realized the error AFTER the PK. He can't change history - he can't unblow his whistle.

    Just my opinion.
     
  23. whipple

    whipple New Member

    May 15, 2001
    Massachusetts
    Re: Thanks

    The PK is not the subsequent restart, but the incorrect restart or one could say it was not a restart at all, since the ball was not correctly put into play. The subsequent restart would be the kick-off following the goal.
     
  24. Tame Lion

    Tame Lion New Member

    Oct 10, 2002
    Southern California
    Correcting an error

    I have said that the referee could go back and fix it. Jim Allen has stated that sometimes it is best to just let sleeping dogs lie. That's if nothing important happened. If something important happened, you have to fix it if you can legally.

    In general if you realize within one or two seconds that red has incorrectly taken a kick, my opinion is that [almost] always you should fix it immediately. You could say, "I'm sorry gentlemen/ladies. I got my directions mixed up. Red committed the foul and the kick goes this way. Wait for my signal." You must turn this into a ceremonial FK and wait for red to get back to be fair.

    Practically speaking, a referee is unlikely to realize an error committed long ago . . . and therfore it is unfixable. On the other hand, if you realize a mistake you made not so long ago (and it is still fixable), you can debate with yourself how likely it is to become important.
     

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