In JC we trust. The AJAX Amsterdam Thread [R]

Discussion in 'The Netherlands' started by JC-14, Oct 25, 2011.

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  1. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    We have a problem of different interpretations based on the country. We have a well founded historical basis for this being determined a borderline racist statement in the US. Things are probably interpreted differently in The Netherlands and I have no doubt that your reasoning is correct for your country just as it is incorrect in our country. We are at a stalemate with respect to this. My only point is that the quote attributed to JC (and none of us were there) was terribly insensitive and should never have been spoken. I don't think we are going to resolve whether it was "racist" or not this evening (or morning where you are - go to sleep now and let's see what tomorrow brings).
     
  2. DSC05

    DSC05 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jun 25, 2002
    Detroit, MI
    Club:
    --other--
    Okay let's nip this talk in the bud. You two have both said your pieces. Not sure anything more needs to be said, unless another party has an opinion.
     
  3. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    I will invest tomorrow maybe more time in this. Cheers
     
  4. Belgian guy

    Belgian guy Member+

    Club Brugge
    Belgium
    Aug 19, 2002
    Belgium
    Club:
    Club Brugge KV
  5. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    It was at least not spontaneous as ten Have said. This is leaked video footage where a third person is in the background is giving direction to where the video should be heading:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbNIYT5zktc&feature=player_embedded"]Interview Davids (onbewerkt, het gedeelte dat je niet mocht zien) - YouTube[/ame]
     
  6. johan neeskens

    Jan 14, 2004
    Who cares who said what. The bigger picture is that this again proves they all hate each other and can't work with each other. And that they're all as bad as each other as far as I'm concerned.
     
  7. PsychedelicCeltic

    PsychedelicCeltic New Member

    Dec 10, 2003
    San Francisco/London
    This is just tedious. 3 year olds can work together better than this mob.

    Just grow up, guys.
     
  8. he so scrumptiouz

    Jun 1, 2006
    amsterdam
  9. PsychedelicCeltic

    PsychedelicCeltic New Member

    Dec 10, 2003
    San Francisco/London
    I hope they can work together and nobody feels insulted.

    There's so many great minds around the place, if they can stop getting in each other's way then the club will be much stronger for it.
     
  10. That Telegraaf dude confirmed on television that Cruyff has said the commented words, so Davids and Ten Have were speaking the truth. But they were said in a context.

    First my opinion: Cruyff isnot a racist. His past doesnot show any evidence on that.
    Second: the remark was racist on its own
    Third: but that doesnot make it racism.
     
  11. aveslacker

    aveslacker Member+

    Ajax
    United States
    Apr 2, 2006
    Near Kamar-Taj
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I know that the mod has suggested we move on, but I think I can shine a little light on this. I'm a trained Equal Employment Opportunity counselor (among other things) meaning I'm fairly well-versed in the way U.S. law works with respect to harassment and discrimination.

    The first thing I should say is that, with respect to U.S. employment law, you guys are both off a little bit. When it comes to the U.S., law prohibits discrimination on the basis of race, gender, national identity, disability, age (to some extent), religion and gender orientation. Likewise, U.S. law prohibits harassment on those same grounds. Whether or not someone is the victim of discrimination or harassment is initially determined by the supposed victim themself.

    To be brief, discrimination is disparate treatment or the denial of reasonable accomodation on one of those grounds above. In this situation, I don't think it applies.

    Harassment, on the other hand, is a different story. Harassment is a tangible, adverse action that is so severe that it creates a hostile work environment and alters the conditions of employment. And again, as with discrimination, it has to be on the basis of one of those protected categories mentioned above. This means that it is both ad hominem and (in this case) racially-oriented. In this situation, depending on how Davids feels about the comments, he would have a very good claim to be the victim of harassment on the basis of race. Let's look at why.

    Cruijff specifically said, "you are only here because you are black." This is clearly an ad hominem attack on Davids. Let's say you're black and you go to work one day. Your boss (or even a co-worker) is unhappy with you for some reason and tells you that you are only there because you are black. Has your work environment changed and become hostile? Yes. You have just been told that your hiring has nothing to do with merit and everything to do with your skin color. You are potentially the victim of harassment (hostile work environment) on the basis of your race. Whether or not we think of it as racism is largely irrelevant. Whether or not Edgar Davids thinks is racism is what is relevant.

    As to whether or not, in the U.S., you would be fired for this, that's not so cut-and-dried. First off, your management has to be informed as part of a settlement process. If the victim decides to take it to court, your management will defend you and, if you are found guilty, your organization will have to pay any compensation and/or relief and may have to take remedial action towards you. But it is far from certain that you will be fired. You could be made to undergo training or face some other kind of sanction. But unless there is a repeated pattern of this behavior, it's unlikely in my opinion that you will get fired.

    I know the mod asked us to move on, but this is important stuff. I will stop here but I'm happy to discuss this more with anyone over PMs.
     
  12. johan neeskens

    Jan 14, 2004
    Same as the Dutch law and constitution then. If Davids feels he is the victim of racism he can take Cruyff to court.

    By the way, Cruyff also said to the only woman on the RvC that she was only in there because she's a woman. It's a bit odd that no-one's getting upset about that.
     
  13. he so scrumptiouz

    Jun 1, 2006
    amsterdam
    The future has arrived..

    All of Jody Lukoki (19), Dico Koppers (19), Lesley de Sa (18), Ruben Ligeon (19) and debutant Davy Klaassen (18) have made the trip to Lyon.

    [​IMG]

    (Ligeon is missing from this picture, Y nobody tell Lukoki that Beats by Dre may look good but are of awful quality :p)

    We already had the youngest squad out at the start, this only solidifies it even more.
     
  14. aveslacker

    aveslacker Member+

    Ajax
    United States
    Apr 2, 2006
    Near Kamar-Taj
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    In my mind, that's equally bad.

    Bottom line: these kinds of comments are completely unacceptable in the modern workplace. Period.
     
  15. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands

    There was no doubt about it for me he has said it. That's why I immediately went to business with the quote yesterday in this thread. Stupidest thing Cruyff could do is deny it. Before you know it, they have taped the conversations.

    How so? Define racism for me exactly and then step for step show me exactly how it is racism.

    Racism is racism. If he says something racist it's racism. Cruyff is not above the law and should be dealt with like the everyone else. However so far I have only seen a ad hominem quote.
     
  16. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Good intervention

    On top of this, some things I don't like in this racism story (as Davids already made clear he experienced it as racism)

    Edgar Davids only came outside with it when he felt public opinion became hostile towards him. If he felt it was racism he should have said so when it happened, not weeks or months after it. Also it was in the presence of the other members of the commission and ten Have has not stopped the meeting and has not suspended Cruyff as chairman. He has that power and even responsibility to do so when he interpreted it as racism or Davids says to him he experienced it that way. The fact he did not use these tools also speak for a certain interpretation.

    For me it is like they thought about this incident when they experienced the climate as hostile towards them as a result of their actions to change public opinion, not because it came directly out of Davids himself. It's like using his outrage strategic.
     
  17. Quote:
    Originally Posted by feyenoordsoccerfan
    Second: the remark was racist on its own

    DRB300 quote:
    How so? Define racism for me exactly and then step for step show me exactly how it is racism.

    Mmm, when I post something about a matter like this I choose my words carefully. The word I used was "Racist", not racism.

    Racism is acting and communicating from the conviction that you are superior to an other person who isnot of your skincolour.

    The remark was racist because it referred to Edgar Davids skin colour and belittleing him and his capabilities because of that.

    But it didnot stem from a believe by Johan that blacks are inferiour.

    So that's my final words on it, because I have the feeling we get into a loop.
     
  18. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Oke, well then let's move on.
     
  19. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Who is the biggest talent of these 4 (or 5 from the names you typed) ?
     
  20. he so scrumptiouz

    Jun 1, 2006
    amsterdam
    Those guys are future Oranje players, all of them. I can't really pick one, but my money would be on Klaassen to receive the most plaudits.

    I'm excited for the future since we have even more coming through next season. This A1 can be considered a golden generation.
     
  21. JC-14

    JC-14 Member+

    Jan 28, 2010
    Amsterdam
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Klaassen definitely gets the most feathers up his butt. Don't know how justified that is. He hasn't impressed me yet. Scores a lot though. I get a kinda Siem de Jong vibe from him. But I hope I'm wrong.

    Lesley de Sa I like. He's skillful and creative. He's shown enough to make me want to see more.

    Dico Koppers isn't rated that highly. But he's a hard worker and you never know where those guys end up.

    Lukoki I don't rate. He's fast. That's it.

    Ligeon, right back who is highly rated for his offensive capabilities and his mentality. He's small and still physically weak though.

    I doubt any of them will ever become starters for Oranje.
     
  22. he so scrumptiouz

    Jun 1, 2006
    amsterdam
    You're such a pessimist. :D

    These guys are winners in NL and EU, if none of them can make Oranje there must be something very wrong.
     
  23. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Is the A1 a golden generation or do you disagree with that? If not, then who are the golden boys from the A1 in your opinion?
     
  24. JC-14

    JC-14 Member+

    Jan 28, 2010
    Amsterdam
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    I think the average level quality in the team is high for a youth team. And most of all, they work well together. I'm however afraid that these guys are "too big for the napkin and too small for the tablecloth". Buoy for instance is a player who really makes football look easy in this team, good technique and vision, but I'm afraid that in the end, he's just going to be too slow to ever go much further than Ajax.

    Fischer and Denswil are the players who I believe are going to reach furthest from this team.

    I might be leaning slightly towards being a pessimist but I really try to be a realist. ;)
     
  25. he so scrumptiouz

    Jun 1, 2006
    amsterdam
    I would name those 2 as well, but next to a host of others. There's so much talent that you can't really say for now who has a better chance of making it. There are still the likes of de Bondt, Kishna etc.

    Denswil is a bit injury prone and even Fischer (4 goals) has his shortcomings. He doesn't stand out. The 3 of Klaassen (10), Bouy (9) and Gravenberch (5) have outscored him and are equally as important to the team.

    Klaassen is topscorer for Ajax in both the league and NextGen/mini CL.
     

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