IFFHS' World Strongest Leagues 2005

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by tpmazembe, Jan 6, 2006.

  1. tpmazembe

    tpmazembe Member

    Jun 13, 2002
    The Midfield (S.Fla)
    It's always interesting to see the amount of debate about which national league is the best. Provided is the brand spanking new rankings from IFFHS.

    [Note: this in not an endorsement]

    http://www.iffhs.de/?17f7370eff3702bb1c2bbb6e28fa3002f71504e52d

    Top Division of Points

    1. England 1207,0
    2. Italia 1137,0
    3. France 995,0
    4. España 985,0
    5. Deutschland 950,0
    6. Brasil 946,0
    7. Nederland 890,5
    8. Argentina 850,0
    9. Russia 710,5
    10. Ukraina 665,0
    11. México 657,0
    12. Portugal 633,5
    13. Belgique 631,0
    14. Chile 618,0
    15. Colombia 615,0
    16. Scotland 595,5
    17. Türkiye 573,0
    18. Greece 564,5
    19. România 526,0
    20. Perú 502,5
    21. Schweiz 484,5
    22. Paraguay 483,0
    23. Bulgaria 465,0
    24. Österreich 463,0
    25. Česká Republika 462,5

    Thoughts?
     
  2. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    How is their ranking calculated?
     
  3. ECMoney

    ECMoney Member

    May 9, 2003
    Toronto

    Very interested that they have France ahead of Spain.
     
  4. tpmazembe

    tpmazembe Member

    Jun 13, 2002
    The Midfield (S.Fla)
    A good question. If you look at the other rankings on their site they usually provide a detailed explanation section (eg...such as this one for their club world rankings http://www.iffhs.de/?e4380bfd300bf17420d87453d33c17fd3504f32b10f83e.0), which is missing for this excercise.

    I'm sure its coming. Because this list is brand spanking new (came out today), I presume they are in the process of drafting a similar explanation section (if you notice their preamble to the strongest league is dated 2004).
     
  5. Legionista

    Legionista New Member

    Dec 12, 2005
    Warszawa/Toronto
    That ranking is a one sick joke :rolleyes:
     
  6. Bertje

    Bertje New Member

    Nov 10, 2004
    Leiden
    I'd say Portugal definately should be higher.
     
  7. Dark Savante

    Dark Savante Member

    Apr 24, 2002
    Become the Tea Pot!!
    France does not surprise me in the slightest. Lyon are now starting to be acknowledged as a super power. Something that league has always lacked.

    The English league has a potential for dominance that should be frightening. Whether it comes into fruition remains to be seen. No doubt the CL success of last year has them #1.

    I find this interesting because I made a thread about 'top ten leagues' a while ago and France were 4th in most peoples opinion above Germany and now they have their superpower they are being acknowledged as a true grower in European tables.
     
  8. Aguante Bielsa

    Aguante Bielsa BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Dec 25, 2004
    Argentina
    Well, if Lyon is a superpower, then Barcelona is God split into eleven pieces on a football field.

    France over La Liga? Come on...
     
  9. Dark Savante

    Dark Savante Member

    Apr 24, 2002
    Become the Tea Pot!!
    Not really. You're going by style of play and not performance (results)
     
  10. Dark Savante

    Dark Savante Member

    Apr 24, 2002
    Become the Tea Pot!!
  11. Even without the criteria being explained to me I could just simply dismiss the ranking as clownish.........
     
  12. tpmazembe

    tpmazembe Member

    Jun 13, 2002
    The Midfield (S.Fla)
    Why? I'd like to understand your reasoning jokstein; especially since you've indicated IFFHS' methodology is irrelevant to your conclusion.

    There has never been a listing or poll on BS that someone hasn't rubbished. IFFHS, along with RSSSF, are two of the more statistically driven footballing research organizations. Very different from BS posters who often go with gut-feel on every poll. Nothing wrong with gut-feel and individual perception, except that it asks others to trust your judgement (when I say "your" its ubiquitous in nature...not you specifically).

    When I asked for thoughts, it was hoping for a bit more than "I disagree".
     
  13. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    Well until I see the workings I won't be sure, but I think most people look and see Spain at 4 and France at 3 and immediately have a problem.

    France has produced 1 CL winner in 50 years, whereas Spain has consistently produced winners in recent years.

    What is likely to distort the whole thing is that last season the Spanish teams had a particularly poor CL campaign. I see that as an anomaly and certainly don't feel that the rise of Lyon is enough for France to deserve its position.

    For the first time I am now coming around to the idea that England is the strongest league in the world, but i think it is still close between Italy, Spain and England.

    I also think that Portugal should be higher, but Porto have been awful the last two seasons.
     
  14. Duck Manson

    Duck Manson Member+

    Feb 8, 2005
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    it says strongest league in the title of the thread, but it seems to indicate most entertaining? i think theres a huge difference between those two. prem league might be entertaining but with chelsea running away with things, and Juventus, i think that almost disqualifies those two. and lyon have been pretty superior in france. just seems weird.
     
  15. tpmazembe

    tpmazembe Member

    Jun 13, 2002
    The Midfield (S.Fla)
    It would be virtually impossible to agree with any listing spot for spot. What's more interesting is the relative location of leagues to each other, and the French league's ascent is impressive.

    I'm also very interested in seeing their analytical framework, though don't see anything in the listing that off-hand dismisses it as farcical in relation to any other listing I've seen.
    Given the source I'm sure its a more data driven approach than based on entertainment factor; but until they publish it we'll be in the dark.

    But to your point Duck, discussions of strongest/best leagues are muddied by everyone's perceptions. Is it the league with the most teams in the hunt; the league with the best showing in international competitions; the perception in the difference between the top tier and bottom tier teams within the league; the list of top players; the distribution of players to teams; etc....
     
  16. argentine soccer fan

    Staff Member

    Jan 18, 2001
    San Francisco Bay Area
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Interesting. I don't have a problem with England first right now, although it is debatable. I would have ranked Spain and even Germany ahead of France, but maybe because I don't watch enough French football. At any rate, France and Spain are almost in a statistical deadheat.

    I can understand why Brazil may have edged in front of Argentina, based on recent performances, but I think the Argentine league is coming back, with the economy improving and hopefully more players returning or staying home a bit longer, as well as other talented players from all over South American coming to our clubs.

    Having Mexico ahead of all South American leagues other than Argentina and Brazil may bother many South Americans, but it is logical and well deserved, because of the Mexican league's better purchasing power and recent improvements in home talent development which had led to positive results.

    The biggest surprise for me (other than maybe France over Spain and Germany) is Ukraine in the top ten, and in particular with Portugal ranked below them. But of course, it may be my ignorance for the most part of the Ukranian teams. Maybe it is because the top Portuguese teams get more exposure in Latin television.

    Rather sad to see that Uruguay doesn't figure at all. Once they would have been near the top, but the economic realities of the tiny country have caught up with them.
     
  17. minorthreat

    minorthreat Member

    Jan 1, 2001
    NYC
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Nat'l Team:
    Spain
    Hasn't the Uruguayan league always been dominated by Nacional and Penarol, though, both of whom haven't performed well in the Libertadores in a long time?

    Also, the fact that the Chinese league is ranked at all must mean that they're basing this solely on some sort of quantitative analysis. If you were to look at it qualitatively, you'd have to throw its data set out altogether due to the fact that so many matches in the Chinese first division are fixed.
     
  18. Duck Manson

    Duck Manson Member+

    Feb 8, 2005
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    i think it would be as easy as the league that has the most teams being competitive in the european cups. thats the only way to compare. although the fact that the prem league has the most players in the world cup should be a good indication. however, most welsh, irish, scottish, norwegian (they were the biggest non-british/english/whatever contributor to prem league in 90s), swedish etc do play in the prem league and if those teams make it, theyll have more players then anyone for as long as football exist. would be better if you took the top 8-10 teams and then see who has the most. anyway, its hard to tell. being the most popular doesnt always mean the best. britney spears is living breathing proof of that. that being said, i think the serie a is more competitive domestically then prem league. theres a much bigger chance that Juventus will get caught up with then chelsea. barca too can get overthrown. if everyone realise that chelsea has won, the battle for second place can be just as fun though. but its still not the same.
     
  19. tpmazembe

    tpmazembe Member

    Jun 13, 2002
    The Midfield (S.Fla)
    Mexican club teams have also advanced far in both SouthAmerican club competitions this year...a continuing trend.
    Wasn't aware of the internal scandals. Do you know how they have performed in Asian competitions?

    EDIT - Never mind on the initial question. Just now noticed you went below the top 25 to find China.

    What country is Schweiz? Is it Switzerland?
     
  20. Dark Savante

    Dark Savante Member

    Apr 24, 2002
    Become the Tea Pot!!
    Winning the major club cup of your continent g'tees a leap. The subsequent results of other teams from your league in your continents competitions is how the rest is determined, I should imagine.
     
  21. argentine soccer fan

    Staff Member

    Jan 18, 2001
    San Francisco Bay Area
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Uruguay has always been dominated by the big two, but at one time Nacional and Penarol were legitimate world powers. Amazing considering that this is a country of about three million people, and a very small economy. When we also add the exodus of so many of its players, it is surprising that they can even support a league at all.

    As far as the Chinese league ranking, it is probably based on the fact that their clubs have recently done relatively well in Asian competitions. (at least well enough to justify a ranking.)

    Overall, my guess is that these rankings are based on a very specific and probably small timeframe, and they are very much influenced by the latest international results. I doubt there is any historical consideration, but rather, it appears that it is meant as an attempt at a snapshot of today's relative strenght.

    So, look at the results of Champions league last year, won by an English club, followed by an Italian club. And England and Italy are ranked 1 and 2.

    Let Barcelona win champions this year (or maybe Villareal, why not?) and I bet we will see Spain move up.
     
  22. minorthreat

    minorthreat Member

    Jan 1, 2001
    NYC
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Nat'l Team:
    Spain
    Yep. For the others that are tough to puzzle out:

    21. Schweiz = Switzerland
    24. Österreich = Austria
    28. Srbija i Crna Gora = Serbia and Montenegro
    30. Maroc = Morocco
    35. Slovensko = Slovakia
    38. Eesti = Estonia
    42. Lietuva = Lithuania
    45. Éire = Republic of Ireland
    55. Suomi = Finland
    61. Magyarország = Hungary
    74. Hrvatska = Croatia
     
  23. Sempre

    Sempre ****************** Member+

    Mar 4, 2005
    NYC
    Club:
    AS Roma
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    MLS at 64. I wonder how you determine such a thing . . .
     
  24. Harry Ottis Guff

    Harry Ottis Guff BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 2, 2003
    Im gonna slap you!
    I'd be mpre interested to find out which league was the most popular worlwide. Surely the Spanish is strongest, then England, you cant atgue with that...
     
  25. tpmazembe

    tpmazembe Member

    Jun 13, 2002
    The Midfield (S.Fla)
    Checked their site today and they added have the following text :

    The classification of the best leagues of the world is made objectively without any outside influence of any sort. We follow the criteria that the level of performance of a league is reflected by the best classified teams of that league who in turn usually represent their country in international club competitions. If one looks at the football power-houses of the world, one notices that regularly 4 or 5 clubs of their leagues are always competing in continental competitions. By adding the points won in all competitions by the five best placed clubs of each league, we have the points for the country which in turn helps to establish a fair classification. It is important to note that only the yearly classification is representative, since all competitions move along the whole season and over twelve months, we have an objective view of the best. This system has been used since 1991, and it is recognized today as the most precise in rating the leagues of the world.
    http://www.iffhs.de/?17f7370eff3702bb1c2bbb6e20fa3002f70d00ee2d

    They've provided the conceptual framework, but not the detailed methodology. I'll see about emailing the organization for clarity.
     

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