If you are not playing you shouldn't be playing.

Discussion in 'USA Men' started by Flagreekguy, Aug 12, 2011.

  1. Flagreekguy

    Flagreekguy New Member

    Aug 13, 2007
    I'm sure i'm going to get some flack for this thread but i've just got to say something. I'm extremely interested in the mindset Klinnsman has on this topic.

    I don't care if you are on the AC milan squad or Ashton Villa. I don't care if it's even Real madrid. If you aren't playing the majority of the time for your team you shouldn't be starting for the USMNT.

    Yes, coming off as a sub or something later in the game for a little time is understandable.

    But i would take a full time MLS starter over someone that isn't getting much or any playing time in Europe.

    Personally, i think when Freddy Adu plays for Philedelphia and gets a starting role, he's going to see himself fall into the Starting 11 for the USMNT.

    We have had some people playing in our Starting 11 in the USMNT over the last few years that aren't even showing promise on their club team. That's a complete slap in the face of our league. Take Robbie Rogers or Brek Shea and Agudelo for instance. These guys aren't UNBELIEVEABLE right now because they aren't completely polished. Alot of it is nerves that they are playing for their country and they haven't played enough on the national team to let their nerves go. But, you see some of their touches and some of their runs show they have alot of potential. Putting in players that EXPECT to be called up for international duty even though they aren't playing a lot on their european club instead of these eager MLS starters is an absolute insult.

    Install this thought process to all the players and they may think twice about a lucrative payday in europe. If they get a multi million dollar contract to a club and don't play alot of time and they never get called up for international duty, it will seperate the guys who absolutely love the game and need to play and the people that just want to make a few easy million.

    Bradley shouldn't be starting for us. Plain and simple. Neither should alot of the guys that have started for us over the years.

    If we put this mindset in our US players they may consider staying with the MLS for full time football instead of straying to europe, which will in turn keep our home grown talent at HOME and draw a hell of alot more attention to our league.

    it's a win win.
     
  2. Sam Hamwich

    Sam Hamwich Member+

    Jul 11, 2006
    Yes, but think about the glory gained during training. Did you think about that?

    Just like any other job, there should be pre-reqs. This makes everyones job easier. Are you starting 50% of the matches from your team? Do you have basic abilities to hold the ball, have some skill to break a man down, pass and shoot? Are you devoted to learning and giving everything to country?
     
  3. schrutebuck

    schrutebuck Member+

    Jul 26, 2007
    Despite all the complaining, Bob Bradley's criteria on playing time worked pretty well. The only guys he really violated it on were Beasley, Onyewu, Adu and Pearce.

    These days this time of complaint always seems aimed at Michael Bradley. And his spot should be in trouble if he can't find playing time after the end of the transfer window. The same with other guys like Lichaj or Guzan that also need to find a new club, or with anybody that falls out of favor for lengthy periods of time.
     
  4. TrueCrew

    TrueCrew Member+

    Dec 22, 2003
    Columbus, OH
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    OK, quick hit, lets look at the USMNT pool and see where players stand. We'll list core players first, then guys who are on the fringe. Difficult to say for some, as the season is just getting started.

    We'll go 4-2-3-1 to start:
    GK: Howard (entrenched starter at Everton)
    RB: Cherundolo (team captain at Hanover)
    CB: Goodson (team captain at Brondby recently)
    CB: Bocanegra (team captain at St. Etienne (LB))
    LB: Lichaj (started regularly on Leeds loan, won't play much at Villa)
    RM: Donovan (entrenched starter for, does he captain?)
    DM: Jones (started for Blackburn; started 1st game for Shcalke, uncertain status)
    CM: Bradley (didn't play much at Aston Villa, not in plans at Monchengladbach)
    CAM: Torres (inconsistent starter last year, this, in 4 games, 2 starts, 1 sub, 1 not in 18)
    LM: Demspey (entrenched starter at Fulham)
    F: Altidore (just moved to AZ and has been injured some; scored as a sub)
    ====================================

    Feel free to quibble, but that looks like the best XI, for now. Now, on to the contenders, or who I'd view as our second tier/fringe type guys. I'll first look at guys who have recent or more extensive past USMNT appearances, or ones JK has called in.

    GK: Guzan (played well in month loan to Hull, won't play much Villa)
    GK: Hahnemann (#3 at the WC, w/out a club right now)
    GK: Rimando (entrenched starter at RSL, Bob's favorite MLS keeper)
    GK: Hamid (entrenched starter for DC)
    GK: S. Johnson (entrenched starter at Chicago)
    GK: Yelldell (starter at Duisburg, backup at Leverkusen, pulled after 1 cup match)
    RB: Chandler (also RM) (starter at Nuremberg)
    RB: Loyd (starter at FCD, has also played some on the left)
    CB: Onyewu (just moved to Sporting Lisbon, we'll see)
    CB: DeMerit (starter when healthy at Vancouver, currently out, did play in reserve game)
    CB: Orozco Fiscal (started both games for San Luis this year)
    CB: Ream (entrenched starter for NYRB)
    LB: Castillo (1 start, 1 sub in 3 games for America, started at LM vs. Barca)
    CB/FB: Pearce (entrenched starter for Chivas, primarily at CB, also played RB/LB)
    M/D: Clark (1 start in 3 games for Eintracht Frankfurt, can't remember if in D or Mid)
    M/D: Spector (spot starter/sub for WHU, just moved to Birmingham, we'll see)
    M/D: Bornstein (no time this year, and in 7 games (4 starts) last term, mostly in MF)
    CM/DM: Edu (entrenched starter for Rangers)
    CM/DM: Beckerman (entrenched starter for RSL)
    AM/CM: Bedoya (entrenched starter for Orebo, winter transfer to Rangers)
    AM/CM: Kljestan (frequent starter last year for Anderlecht, 1 start in 2 this, took a PK)
    LM: Beasley (starter all 4 games for Puebla)
    LM: Shea (entrenched starter for Dallas)
    LM/RM: Rogers (entrenched starter for Columbus)
    AM/WF: Adu (played well in Turkish second, just transferred to Philly)
    F: Buddle (3 appearances, 1 start in 3 games for Ingolstadt)
    F: Agudelo (3rd striker for NYRB, should get more time now that Rodgers is out)
    F: Findley (finally getting healthy after transfer to Forest, goal/assist + 1 disallowed)
    F: Gomez (4 games, 3 starts in 4 for Tecos)
    F: Wondolowski (starter for SJ, does play some in the MF as well)
    F: Davies (form has waned some at DC with knocks; 17G/11 GS out of 21 for DC)
    ====================================

    The only field players who are in really bad spots are Lichaj, Bornstein, and Bradley. Guzan, Hahnemann, and Yelldell are also likely not to play much. Hoping Guzan and Lichaj can secure loans, and Bradley should be able to move somewhere.

    Further down the food chain:

    GK: Hartman (starter at Dallas, if JK wants a young #2, we need an experienced #3)
    GK: Perkins (starter at Portland)
    GK: Pickens (starter in Colorado)
    GK: Hesmer (starter in Columbus)
    GK: Westburg (starter due to injury, I think, for Evian in Ligue 1)
    GK: Bush (starter in SJ)
    GK: Hall (starter in Houston)
    FB: Franklin (starter for LA)
    FB/CB: De La Garza (spot starter, super sub for LA)
    CB: Parkhurst (starting for Nordsjaelland, interest from others)
    CB: Marshall (starter for Columbus)
    CB: Gonzalez (starter for LA)
    CB: John (starter for Dallas)
    CB: Borchers (starter for RSL)
    CB: Wynne (starter for Colorado)
    CB: Ihemelu (starter for Dallas)
    LB: Dunivant (starter for LA)
    LB: Wallace (lost starting job in Colorado, 10 Games, 8 starts for the year)
    LM/LB: Convey (starter for SJ)
    CM/CB: Cameron (starter for Houston)
    CM: McCarty (starting for NYRB)
    CM/AM: Diskerud (starter for Stabaek)
    RM/RB: Gatt (starter for Molde)
    LM/AM: Davis (starter for Houston)
    AM: Gaven (starter for Columbus)
    F: Rolfe (started all 4 games for Aalborg, with a goal)
    F: Johnson (no home at present)
    F: Casey (starter for Colorado, out injured)
    F: Braun (starter for Chivas USA)
    F: Starikov (15 games, 10 starts in 19 games for Tom Tomsk)
    F: Tracey (back healthy for Aalborg, hasn't played yet)
    =========================

    I'm sure I've missed some folks, but that's far enough down the food chain for now.
     
  5. Sam Hamwich

    Sam Hamwich Member+

    Jul 11, 2006
    Well this is my point. If they dont meet the req's they arent considered. You would be amazed how quickly some guys would find a way to get minutes if they knew without them they are dust.
     
  6. Flagreekguy

    Flagreekguy New Member

    Aug 13, 2007
    Wow i love the detail.

    I think your onto something here though, this is how we need to start thinking more strictly. We were lenient with Gooch and a few other players because they were on a european club. It's time to quelch that mindset. If your don't play enough you don't play at all in a starting role. PERIOD.

    This will motivate the players across the board to get playing time if they have to claw and scratch their way to a spot.

    Just think about it, if they are riding the bench on their club team and starting or playing alot of time for their national team, all the while collecting a nice size check, WHAT DO THEY CARE? They are happier then they can be. They don't have to work hard. Install this mindset in a strict strict manner and everyone will benefit.
     
  7. Flagreekguy

    Flagreekguy New Member

    Aug 13, 2007
    I mean.... that's 4 people lol

    I don't understand why we would even really make that exception to be honest. Gooch is a perfect example, how can you show me your my most talented back when you aren't even able to play for your club -shrug- that's just my opinion. Beasley was the same thing, I know he was good. but how do you think all the LM's and wingers in MLS that started week end and week out for their club and busted their butt to get noticed felt when Beaseley got a start and they didnt even play in the game when he hasn't seen field play in months. ya know?

    That's a complete slap in the face in my opinion. If i were in those players shoes i would totally argue the point of "How can you say he's better than me on the field when you haven't seen him play in months?"
     
  8. schrutebuck

    schrutebuck Member+

    Jul 26, 2007
    Beasley was the only one that got away with it for a long period of time, basically from mid-2008 until he fell out of favor during the Confederations Cup.

    Pearce got away with it at the beginning of the hex. Onyewu off and on since the 2010 World Cup. And Adu really only in 09, but Bradley didn't play him very much.

    4 players for short periods of a 4 year spell isn't terrible. And chances are in 2013, Klinsmann will have some favorites that are suffering through poor form or injuries. And he'll have to make similar decisions that Bob Bradley did, playing some of them and benching others.
     
  9. HailtotheKing

    HailtotheKing Member+

    San Antonio FC
    United States
    Dec 1, 2008
    TEXAS
    Club:
    San Antonio Scorpions FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You know, for the longest time guys that were 3rd string at Florida State were better than the starters at most colleges ... but they didn't play all that much because the guys at FSU were better than them.

    That doesn't mean those 3rd stringers suddenly lost the talent that got them recruited to FSU rather than Tulane or Wyoming.
     
  10. EruditeHobo

    EruditeHobo Member+

    Mar 29, 2007
    San Francisco, CA
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think this mindset has been proven wrong for this US team. Other international sides that are stacked with talent can have the luxury of only utilizing the in-form club starters. The US is no such team.
     
  11. Sam Hamwich

    Sam Hamwich Member+

    Jul 11, 2006
    You know, we have a domestic league. If our players are not good enough to start abroad, then go with those that are good enough domestically...and just like that MLS will get better players.
     
  12. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think Klinsy should have a different policy.

    I think he should play the team he thinks give him the best chance to win.

    I'm radical like that.
     
  13. Sam Hamwich

    Sam Hamwich Member+

    Jul 11, 2006
    It sends the wrong message. The message should be, this is a reward for your hard work and achievement, not, 'give me your tired, your poor, your lack of one-touch...'
     
  14. RiceBubble

    RiceBubble Member

    Jun 24, 2011
    Pennsylvania
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Klinsmann mentioned in one interview that he rather you were playing and training day-in, day-out in MLS or Bundeglisa II than to be constantly riding the pine or not making the gameday rosters at all in some top European club.
     
  15. EruditeHobo

    EruditeHobo Member+

    Mar 29, 2007
    San Francisco, CA
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don't know what this had to do with what I said.

    The US team isn't a reward for hard work.

    And I'm going into this assuming that results matter. So playing the best players matters. The best players are not in MLS.
     
  16. RiceBubble

    RiceBubble Member

    Jun 24, 2011
    Pennsylvania
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Fielding the best players doesn't necessarily translate to fielding the best team. Soccer is a team sport. Klinsmann needs to be able to put out a Starting XI that are able to play as a cohesive unit. The team is more important than the individual. If that team includes players from MLS, then so be it.
     
  17. EruditeHobo

    EruditeHobo Member+

    Mar 29, 2007
    San Francisco, CA
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well that wasn't really my point. My point is that a field of the best US players isn't going to include many MLS players. Now, it's possible that some euros come in and are unimpressive in training due to the fact that they aren't getting consistent minutes at a club. Thus, the in-form MLS player is a better fit to start and play for the US.

    But I don't think that will happen very often, I think the best chances to win will come from the best players... provided they aren't really out of game shape, which I assume would mean they wouldn't even see the field honestly.
     
  18. Sam Hamwich

    Sam Hamwich Member+

    Jul 11, 2006
    1. it should be a reward. if you use it as a reward, you get players fighting for...rewards.
    2. LONG TERM results matter. So, if you force players to play and they can only get playing time in MLS as opposed to ManCity, then if they want to play for the Nats they will need to go to MLS and compete. Long term, MLS gets better US players and therefore a better league, creating more competition and better players. Vicious circle of reward and success.
    3. See above.
     
  19. HailtotheKing

    HailtotheKing Member+

    San Antonio FC
    United States
    Dec 1, 2008
    TEXAS
    Club:
    San Antonio Scorpions FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Soooooooo you're saying the secret the whole time has been to have US players that are USMNT prospects/hopefuls play in the MLS ? That's what it sounds like, and uh ... there's a reason that wasn't happening until like, last year.

    You're oversimplifying just a tad ...
     
  20. dsirias

    dsirias Member

    Oct 26, 2007
    Not to pee on the post, but myriad dudes on here, including me, used to rage on Bob all the time for that very dysfunction of calling people who do not play or are not in form. (That even included Dempsey for a short period of time.) So the assertion is true and noble, but not new.

    I mean, I just ASSUME, JK will not be calling guys who don't play. Because I think he rates. I never thought BOB rated.

    Hail to the end of the college coach era at the helm of the USMNT!
     
  21. Sam Hamwich

    Sam Hamwich Member+

    Jul 11, 2006
    No I am saying what the OP said. No play. No play. Arena benches Donovan for Keane? Sorry, no call up. Dempsey can't beat out dembele? nope, not this time around deuce. MB not allowed to train with his team. Sorry, that's life and football. You want to be coddled? Open a nursery.
     
  22. juniorLA

    juniorLA Member

    Mar 4, 2008
    El Lay
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I tend to agree with this. JK is already trumpeting how much fitness matters for his game plan. He's not going to see as much value in a player that isn't getting regular game minutes.
     
  23. ImaPuppy

    ImaPuppy Member+

    Aug 10, 2009
    Using too many parentheses
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    Nat'l Team:
    American Samoa
    So let's say that Landon Donovan goes on a tear in MLS, gets transferred to Real (remember, this is hypothetical), and gets very limited time...are you implying he shouldn't be starting for our team despite being one of our top players?

    Sound logic there, op. Thank God you're not running this team.
     
  24. EruditeHobo

    EruditeHobo Member+

    Mar 29, 2007
    San Francisco, CA
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This ridiculous exaggeration easily demonstrates how silly an absolute principle can be. There are no absolutes, this is case by case... and why shouldn't it be?

    Klinsmann has said fitness matters... and he also said Bradley was great in training I believe, and started him as a result.
     
  25. HailtotheKing

    HailtotheKing Member+

    San Antonio FC
    United States
    Dec 1, 2008
    TEXAS
    Club:
    San Antonio Scorpions FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    LOL, if we were Germany/Brazil/Spain and maybe one or two other countries we could afford this luxury.

    However, we're the United States ....
     

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