I figured to pick the brains here about a couple of things I have failed to figure out. Altidore and Dempsey being the top 2. If I'm picking ojn your favorite player, don't roast me, explain what about them means they should start over someone else. What is it about their play that makes them seem so ineffective (in my eyes) at the international level? I'm not going to bring up specific matches, everyone has their good and bad outings, but whenever I watch these 2 on the USMNT they just don't seem to produce. Guys like Gomez or Boyd seem to bring more with fewer mistakes. Obviously we don't have a wealth of options up top, but the vast majority of "Your starting 11" posts on here include both of these guys. Altidore always looks like he has no touch and Dempsey either blows chances or gives up the ball (often from being to slow to decide what he wants to do.) I'm aware they are effective, with Dempsey you can say a lot more than effective, Premiere League players, so how come they do not seem to fit in on the National team? When they are in I always get the feeling of "square peg, round hole." What am I missing?
When it comes to Altidore we need to remember that the kid is only 22 years old. [It seems like he's been around forever.] If we would have had any forwards in their prime (25-28 perhaps. Think Eddie Johnson, Kenny Cooper, etc.) playing well over the past 4 years.....................they'd have started over Jozy. He was perhaps thrown into the fire before he was really ready. I think I remember that he was the youngest starting forward at the 2010 World Cup. Now that he's starting and playing well for AZ, hopefully he takes the "next step." We need him to.
Where have you been since Klinsmann took over? Altidore has looked good, and Dempsey has been scoring key goals for us( cough* Italy cough*) in multiple games.
25 goals in 84 caps for Dempsey says effective to me. Also comes through in big games (Egypt, Spain, Brazil in CC, England and Slovenia in WC, Ghana in '06 WC, etc...).
I disagree with your premise. Granted, neither of them is a world-beater by himself. If the team continues to improve, and win, I guess that will mean they're "effective." E.g., Ching rarely scored. Was he ineffective? Feel free to have your own opinion, but like most of the players we use for most matches, he was the best choice we generally had available.
Well, I didn't get to see Italy or the o9 Cup. Mostly what I remember of watching Dempsey play is watching him slow the attack and lost the ball or blow point blank chances. Freely admitted I apparently missed the matches he has looked good in. Altidore I stand by. How many caps and how many goals for a starting striker? I've see him score once. Best options I consider debatable. Altidore is young, I understand, but I've never seen much out of him at the International level that would have me starting him over Gomez, Boyd, or possibly even Adu. Is scoring goals a measure of effectiveness? Maybe not for a CB, but for someone who starts up top as a major portion of the attack, it is for me. I don't care how they go in as long as they go in. For the midfield, possession matters to me (perhaps more than it should) and Dempsey doesn't do it for me there.
Uh....Clint Dempsey has been the best player on the national team since about 2010 and exhibits exactly none of the traits you think he does. Jozy Altidore, despite being a lightning rod around here, has been a very effective forward for us while developing his game over the past year. And he's 22. Your entire premise is flawed by the fact that you seem to, you know...not actually watched most of the games.
Altidore, 46 matches already? Wow. That is a really terrible goals-per-match. Especially considering some of those were multi-goal matches.
So, in your expert opinion, how many goals should he have? Be sure to take into consideration that he's had multi-goal matches because, in your expert opinion, that matters.
I think I posted around the end of the Bob Bradley era that Jozy had the best non-PK strike rate at the time of any player the USMNT had ever regularly fielded. It's declined since then, but the entire team was struggling to score during the period, and it's still not bad at all relatively.
The guady numbers that players put up for their clubs rarely translate to international play. Forlan has 33 in 87 for Uruguay. Ronaldinho has 33 in 93. Ronaldo 32 in 87 for Portugal. Rooney 28 in 73. Messi 22 in 68. Benzema 13 in 44. These numbers may be better than Altidore, but these are all considered world class players. Take into account Altidore's youth, lack of talent around him, the US's defend and counter tactics, etc. and his numbers aren't "really terrible."
Well, given his age of 22, I'm not sure he should have 46 caps before he found a club to play at regularly (AZ). Just reminds me of how shallow the striker pool is, forcing young guys into roles they are not ready for. The use of "terrible" was an exaggeration. He is a young player with a lot of experience, but I would really like him to step it up another level.
To compare Dempsey to Donovan... Confed Cup passing statistics (from here)... Passes: Donovan 125; Dempsey 124. Donovan. Pass Completion Percentage: Donovan 65%; Dempsey 66%. Dempsey. Note: To be fair, Donovan’s been more consistent passing than Dempsey. In the first three matches, Donovan’s passing completion rates were: 56%, 70%, 67%. Over those same matches, Dempsey’s rates were: 59%, 58%, 75%. Short Pass Completion: Donovan 53%; Dempsey 79%. Dempsey. (Although Dempsey seems to be the one called out for it, he has had much more success completing the short pass. Landon’s been erratic with short passing: 25%, 71%, 42% whereas Dempsey’s been consistently solid: 100%, 67%, 79%.) Castrol Index from 2010 WC shows Dempsey 60% pass completion and Donovan 61%, although unlike the CC, at this tournament Donovan was much more effective on short passes (75% vs 54%).
Terrible??? It's a strike rate of a goal every 3.5 appearances. Dempsey's rate is 3.3... Donovan's...you know, our ALL TIME LEADING SCORER...2.8... Ummmm...maybe you want to rethink that label...
Altidore hasn't been an especially good striker up till now. However, his recent play at AZ Alkmaar shows that he is coming into his own. He's only 22. He played striker in the past because our options at forward have been slim and none. Now he's going to play because he is good. Outside of Jozy, we still don't have a lot of options. Herculez Gomez is 30 years old. This will be his last World Cup. Altidore will play in 2014, 2018, and maybe even 2022.
I meant to say the same thing, but it included some nonsense. Really, Altidore is right on track for a 22 year old striker.
My OP was based, not on statistics, but on general feel when I watch them play. Altidore appeared less than fluid and Dempsey looked slow both in foot speed and decision making. Yes, I have missed games, I only get to see maybe 1/2 of them.
The statistics have been provided to help prove your feelings that they aren't doing it for the national team are wrong.
Problem is I knew the statistics beforehand. Roughly if not in detail at all times. The "impression" I described has not left despite that. Ah well, guess I will just have to live with it for the time being.
I'm curious what inspired the "Idiot Questions". Was it your viewing of the Brazil match? I know you say several viewings, but your stated problems with the two players are so general that no matter what specifics someone throws back in your direction to help you "understand" you have wiggle room to say "well, yes, I know that. but I'm still unconvinced." I don't mean that comment to be insulting, but if you really want to be convinced that your understanding of things is off, then perhaps more specificity on your part is required. Just an idea.