Identifying Talent - How and When?

Discussion in 'Youth & HS Soccer' started by UglyParent, Oct 4, 2012.

  1. StrikerMom

    StrikerMom Member

    Sep 25, 2014
    I think an academy/development league is a must. Even though there are no formal games they will more than likely do 1v1's , etc and mini-matches. You want something that is focused on development and improving technique and not scoring. If it clashes with basketball find another academy or bball team.
     
    Hararea repped this.
  2. Hararea

    Hararea Member+

    Jan 21, 2005
    True as this is, I also think it's wise to listen to your kid. Especially at that age, good environments are lots of fun. If he tries it and still doesn't want to be there, it's for a reason. Best to let the formal training wait for a while.
     
  3. EverRespect

    EverRespect New Member

    Apr 11, 2015
    Club:
    --other--
    Yeah he did try it. One of his best friends from school is in it and his dad runs it and invited him to finish out the fall session back in October for free. We went once. My child seemed to enjoy himself and fit in but he didn't want to go back. I'm not going to burn him out at 6-years old. He goes through phases mostly based on what is on TV. He got into his soccer obsession last summer when the World Cup was on. Right now his favorite sport is basketball and he dominated a league full of inner city kids as the only white player. He also wants to try baseball and football (family fight pending). I think his future is brightest in soccer... I am 5'10" and my wife is 5'7" and while he is taller than average relative to his classmates, chances are he will not get much over 6'0" and be able to play basketball beyond HS. That said, from what I have read, specialization isn't good for them under about 12 years. For all we know, he could be the next Peyton Manning, Joe DiMaggio or John Stockton.
     
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  4. StrikerMom

    StrikerMom Member

    Sep 25, 2014
    Yes, 6 is young to be focusing on only one sport.

    i just think that sports like soccer, tennis and basketball are always way more fun if you have a good skill level (and decent fitness). Doesn't have to be elite level! And if your kids have a good skill level then they will always be able to play for fun and make friends when they are older. And one day they can coach their own kid's team.

    You don't always get the best coaches in rec.
     
  5. nicklaino

    nicklaino Member+

    Feb 14, 2012
    Brooklyn, NY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Do not I repeat do not let him watch the carton channel. :) on height that is what he thought after his son. My brother is 5'8" his son is 6'5". I go to his HS graduation its in the country in the middle of the forest. I start to worry what if there is a fire we are all dead.

    Then I am looking for him and think I will notice him because of his height. Then I see most of those kids are as big as he is in clouding the girls. Now I am thinking what is this place the land of the giants :) then I notice something strange in the who graduating class no minorities.
     
  6. I read a lot in this thread about talent divided in the physical part (excercizable) and the genetic part (physical favourable attributes). But soccer foremost is a game played with the brain. You can be a genetically super athlete and excercise to the hilt, but if you donot have the brains to play the game, you never will be a top soccer player. The brain is the most important part of a soccer star wannabee. So if one is looking out for a superiour talent, you should watch his problem solving skills on the pitch first and second his ability to execute what he has decided what the solution is. Then you make him excercise to sharpen his abilities to the edge.
     
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  7. Virginian

    Virginian Member

    Sep 23, 1999
    Denver, Co
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think there are a few things to consider.
    1. We need to have realistic expectations
    2. We need to understand that people are human
    3. We need to ask for help

    1. Everyone on this board repeat after me. "My child is most likely not going to get a college scholarship for soccer," and "My child is not going to be a professional soccer player." Don't think that your son/daughter is going to be the outlier- the odds are so miniscule that you have about the same odds as winning the lottery, and I don't think many of us shell out thousands of dollars per year in hopes of winning the lottery (at least I hope we don't). It is fine to have hopes and aspirations for your kids, but it is best to let THE KID drive his/her level of effort. If your kid wants to specialize, let them. If they want to practice 5x per week, let them. Don't push them to go to extra trainings if they don't want to.

    2. Kids get overlooked due to size, injuries, ethnic origin, language, income and just about everything you can think of. In the USA, in most environments we have a pay-to-play structure which leads, in some cases, to players being on the team because they can pay- not because they are good enough to be on the team. Until professional clubs have enough revenue coming in to fully fund their youth programs (i.e. make them free) there will never be a team selected just because all the players are better. I think of a kid who is really small and got overlooked because at U12 he was very small and got knocked off the ball a lot. The kid east, sleeps and breathes soccer. Excellent foot skills, speed and fundamentals. He absolutely deserves to be on the top team but he was dropped because of size. Another kid got injured just before academy tryouts. He couldn't try out and despite being the best player on his league team and scoring 16 goals in 16 games for his team the previous season, he wasn't chosen for the academy team. Instead of picking that kid who had been with the club for 6 years, the club chose to add some players from other clubs after a two day tryout. People are human and they call it as they see it. They are biased. They are flawed. Mistakes will be made.

    3. Because we are human, we need to ask for help. This one is for coaches and clubs. If you have seen the same kid play for 5+ years, maybe you need a fresh set of eyes for tryouts. Every club in my area has the same folks every year running tryouts. Kids get better/worse as the years go by. The kid that was 5'6" two years ago is now 6'2". The slow chubby kid is now fast and skinny after puberty. The kid that was lazy may have had a huge life event that changed their perspective on life and now they are the scrappiest player on the field. You may have pre-conceived ideas about certain kids. It is hard to change those pre-conceived notions if you see them every day. That fresh new kid that comes to try-outs may look fresh and different, but they may not be any better than the kids you already have and may have less upside potential. Get a fresh set of eyes- some college coaches, ODP coaches from outside your area, professional coaches to help out at tryouts. Tangentially, I always wondered why clubs didn't require some sort of questionnaire that could help frame a player's upside potential. Did your parents play a sport in college? A D1 sport? A professional sport? An Olympian? A spelling bee champ or nobel prize winner? How many games do you watch on TV per week? How many hours do you play outside of organized practices? what is yout favorite soccer team and why? I know of companies that make you fill out a two+ hour application and test prior to the first interview to weed out those who aren't willing to invest the time to apply. There has got to be a better way than putting 22 kids on a field for 6 hours over 3 days and watching them just play.

    I will give US Soccer credit for one aspect of their academy program. Youth national team scouts attend practices several times per year for each club. This way ALL the academy kids get seen, not just the coach's favorite or their nominee like ODP used to be. HOWEVER the talent identification system is FATALLY flawed until pay-to-play is eliminated (at least at the academy level) through some sort of funding or remuneration system for youth clubs.
     
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  8. Hararea

    Hararea Member+

    Jan 21, 2005
    Nice idea in theory, but their scouts have been doing this for a number of years now, and how many new faces do they actually identify this way?
     
  9. nicklaino

    nicklaino Member+

    Feb 14, 2012
    Brooklyn, NY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Once you have the skills it is about the brain seeing and doing without taking time to think first.

    Just for older and advanced players, playing at the mid position for the first time with the team.

    What I do with new mids as far as really looking at them when they go to their first practice with our team. I want to see what kind of brain they have. What kind of memory they have and how fast it works and turns what they see into action. To do this well also takes skill especially under pressure on the players part, and we put them under pressure.

    I want to see how long it takes for that mid to recognize a team mate, and to make good passes to team mates after it. Do they have to look longer before they pass or can they see, recognize what they are looking at and perform an action fast.

    So when we break up the team to play against each other at the end of the practice. I will have him take a good look at the guys on his team.

    Then we play no bibs, no scarves no nothing. So he has to have a pretty good memory in general to distinguish between team mates and the opponents. To do that he also has to get his head up and see their faces. There is a lot of pressure on the new player. Passes to the wrong player continues with the opponents on the attack. I will just say wrong player and we continue play.

    Then I see how many passes he makes to his team mates and how fast he does it? It is also under pressure that the ball brings.

    Then besides that I make coaching points in general. Then see if he is actually listing to those points. That tells me he is coachable.
    ----
    (In youth soccer at tryouts some coaches just want to see them play. I want to see them play as well, but I try to make coaching points because I want to see if they can listen and learn from those coaching points while they are playing.)

    You can only do this with very good players. That's what I am looking for very good players and make them better players. I know they are good to begin with because I have seen them play before they ever got to the teams first practice, but this tells me just how really good they actually are
     
  10. nicklaino

    nicklaino Member+

    Feb 14, 2012
    Brooklyn, NY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    "I will give US Soccer credit for one aspect of their academy program. Youth national team scouts attend practices several times per year for each club. This way ALL the academy kids get seen, not just the coach's favorite or their nominee like ODP used to be. HOWEVER the talent identification system is FATALLY flawed until pay-to-play is eliminated (at least at the academy level) through some sort of funding or remuneration system for youth clubs."

    There is not enough youth national team scouts to find the best players in the United States. My friend Alfonse used to coach the Metros.

    After he became the U.S. National under 14 coach. He found some players himself I am not sure if he even had people looking for talent. We had one player a dominate player that used to destroy his under 14 team. He took him when he left our player left.

    There are places in NYC that has a relatively untapped supply of talent the central Brooklyn league. Made up of poor minority kids some of which can really play. No one will ever see them play.

    I know about them because I saw some older ones playing in a street soccer game I was playing in when I saw them play by accident. One summer I worked in their league. I heard them say passDBall so much I took it as a nick name when I coached them.
     
  11. AJSW

    AJSW Member

    Jun 18, 2013
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Feynoordsoccerfan and Nicklaino both addressed kids developing the soccer brain/solving problems. I agree it is important and we want to identify such talented kids. If I understand correctly, we are not talking tactics and positioning, but more quick problem-solving. For example, how does a kid with a ball work his way out of a tight space or get a good angle to make a pass other's may not see or think a pass or two ahead of other kids?

    How is this developed? Pick-up? Can it be taught? If so, how? Thanks
     
  12. Hararea

    Hararea Member+

    Jan 21, 2005
    Fwiw, I don't see a clean difference between tactics/positioning and quick problem-solving. The positions you take up, including your stance, are big parts of solving problems on the field.
     
  13. jack0fspeed

    jack0fspeed New Member

    Apr 23, 2012
    Dallas, TX
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    I love this thread.

    My son is nearing the end of his U14 season. He plays for a team that is currently competing for our state championship. At this age and at this level everyone has great skill, everyone is very fit. The game is extremely fast and dynamic.

    Here are some things he's learned this year:

    1. If your first touch goes where the defender expects you to put it, it gets taken away.

    2. If you want to receive a medium or long pass, you better be able to receive a pass in the air INCLUDING THE FIRST TOUCH (see #1). Defenders are very fast at this point. Any ground pass that's not a short pass gets intercepted.

    3. Be constantly planning the next pass you are going to receive (ideally on the move ahead of the ball), the first touch, and the player your pass is going to. If you don't have a plan, you won't get the ball.

    4. Be connected (i.e. be able to receive / make a short pass) to multiple players at all times. If you only have one good option, it will be cut off.

    5. Around the other team's goal, one touch only. Anything else gets blocked.

    6. Even the most well placed shots don't get past keepers if they don't have sufficient pace.

    7. A well timed run off the ball is a great way to get a get a chance to score

    8. Not organizing quickly on defense and not committing to your defensive assignments are good ways to lose games

    9. Any time you are defending a player who's ready to attack you (i.e. hips are square to you) stand your ground. Any time you are defending a player who isn't ready to attack you, bump him off the ball.


    So at this point, skills and fitness has to be a given. Some degree of soccer IQ has to be a given. Physical maturity is still making some difference. Mental maturity is starting to become a much bigger deal. Ability to understand and adjust to things in the game is becoming a much bigger deal.

    Mastery of the big, fast game is a prerequisite to getting on to the academy track. Combine that with having something about your game that sets you apart ... like having a top-notch dribble game, great shot-making, or being really good in the air ... and you are a good candidate to move up to the academy level.
     
    Hararea repped this.
  14. BP9175

    BP9175 Member

    Aug 2, 2011
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nicholas Sullins Soccer Skills DOB 9/24/2004

    Havent checked in for a while now. I posted a couple videos of my boy back a couple years ago. I received some praise and also advice of how to continue in his training and development. Well, he's now 10 and he's improved a lot, both mentally and skillfully. Here is another video of him showing his skills. I don't have much game footage because his coach/academy has decided to drop all games and tournaments for a while, going on 8 months now. And I love it. My boy has really improved in these eight months of no games, just practice and 3 v 3 scrimmages at practice with his teammates. The coach teaches the tiki taka system but also lets them take the ball if they want to. Anyways, I put music on the video because he wants to share it with his friends, as many here don't like music on soccer videos. Again, this mainly a skills video with a bit of game footage.
     
  15. nicklaino

    nicklaino Member+

    Feb 14, 2012
    Brooklyn, NY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    BP Your video did not work
     
  16. BP9175

    BP9175 Member

    Aug 2, 2011
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Yes, just noticed, thanks. Got blocked due to copyright infringements. I removed the songs and its should be a good in a couple hours.
     
  17. BP9175

    BP9175 Member

    Aug 2, 2011
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
  18. AJSW

    AJSW Member

    Jun 18, 2013
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    What a wonderful video. I am extremely familiar with kids in the 9-12 year old range who are excellent players and what their levels of control are. There is no doubt that Nicholas at age 10 has excellent close control with both feet for his age. He can obviously control the ball in the air as shown by his juggling -- with both feet. I know very well that he (and probably you) spent a lot of time doing lots of repetitions. He has to have an exceptional amount of self-motivation. For control, he is clearly in the top 1% for his age. On Bigsoccer, there are lots of comments about the need to produce players who have good technical skills at a young age and Nicholas fits the bill so far.

    FWIW, I have seen one other kid who did surprisingly similar drills to what Nicholas is doing (cones, ball mastery juggling). He is still an outstanding player. I noticed that he was able to dribble through high-level players at 10 and 11, but at 11 and 12, the defenders really made concerted efforts to knock the player off the ball a lot -- your son looks fairly sturdy so this may not be a problem. Other tips (unsolicited), Nicholas can probably weave through players with quick cutbacks (he has quick feet naturally and perhaps enhanced with drills), but add some dribbling moves that can be used at full speed on the wing (I saw the scissors) --maybe he already has some more. Don't forget to add ball-striking of all types. Need some routines for that. Pick-up games so he can use his skills under real pressure are invaluable! That is the real test, putting the control to good use. Get good coaching for a well-rounded development and hopefully good players to play with. Time will tell...

    Good luck!
     
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  19. nicklaino

    nicklaino Member+

    Feb 14, 2012
    Brooklyn, NY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nick has nice contro of the ball. When he juggles their is no spin on the ball that is very good.

    When he juggles have him get is arms out more to the sides it will give him better balance and it will also be harder for the opponent to get the ball off him.

    Try to get him to do his moves while seeing the ball at the bottom of his vision so he can still get his head more up to se the field and his opponents better.

    I wish I saw him more in games. When he was dribbling I did not see any team mates help with giving him pass options from his team mates.

    Half scissor is to beat and opponent. Full scissors is to give him more time to see the field not to beat the opponent so are pullbacks.
     
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  20. BP9175

    BP9175 Member

    Aug 2, 2011
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Thanks for the kind words! That is what we are working on right now. Dribbling at medium to full speed and doing a quick move without hesitation. More half scissors, cuts, etc. He is really good at dragging the ball with both feet. So he uses the croqueta move all the time, we call it the Iniesta since he is the master of it. I tell him that control of the ball is the upmost importance especially for a little guy like him. He watches a lot of videos of Zidane and Iniesta and he tries to imitate their game. And yes I am worried about kids knocking him off the ball since he's not the biggest kid but since he is quick, they haven't really been able to do much of that yet but we will see what happens in a couple years.

    And you are correct about the amount of time he spends practicing to develop his touch. He spends between 10-12 hours a week practicing. 1/3 with the team. 1/3 with me and 1/3 by himself. So far so good with that ratio.
     
  21. BP9175

    BP9175 Member

    Aug 2, 2011
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    He still struggles a little bit with seeing the field because he still stares at the ball a bit too long but he is getting better at it. It just takes time for his mind to evaluate everything and to decide what to do in a half second. I never thought about him putting his arms out but that it makes sense what you say. I will work on that with him.

    He does half scissors in the game. Much more of a compact move and more effective at this age.

    About his teammates passing, the video might not display that but his teammates are actually excceptional passers and get the ball to each other much better than any other team here locally. They will start playing games in July and hopefully post parts of the action on here.
     
  22. nicklaino

    nicklaino Member+

    Feb 14, 2012
    Brooklyn, NY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    When he beats his defender and has space it is better to run with the ball instead of dribbling. Push the ball up field and run with the ball. Just have to regain close control the dribble before an opponent can beat him to the ball.

    Your son has talent has other better coaches in the area seen him play. Good coaches here will love to work with him just to say they helped him with his game.
     
  23. BP9175

    BP9175 Member

    Aug 2, 2011
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    The one thing I am 100% sure about is that my son is with the best youth coach available in the area. He is the only one that is not pre-occupied with winning but instead of teaching skills and passion for the game. I live right on the Mexican border and hardly any of the coaches speak english, and there are very few academies and all the academies are affiliated with Mexican teams. As a matter of fact, we practice about a 1/4 of a mile from the Mexican Border. Not complaining, just stating facts.

    And there is a lot of passion for soccer here. One of the local high schools just went 28-0-0 and won the biggest high school division in Texas (6A), a tournament including 128 high school teams, beating teams from Houston and Dallas easily. The team was pretty much unstoppable and played a beautiful possession game. Again, the coach was from Mexico.
     
  24. BP9175

    BP9175 Member

    Aug 2, 2011
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    #324 BP9175, May 14, 2015
    Last edited: May 14, 2015
    I know this isn't the high school soccer section but check out some of the action from the team I talked about. I recorded almost the whole 1st half. Some nice soccer for being high school. Brownsville Rivera is in the Black. The white team is from San Antonio. Brownsville school won 3-1 and wasn't even that close.

     
  25. BP9175

    BP9175 Member

    Aug 2, 2011
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    #325 BP9175, May 15, 2015
    Last edited: May 15, 2015


    I forgot about a friendly game I recorded back in December. Not the best quality since it was from a go pro cam. My boy is hard to spot but he's on the opposite side (winger) along the wall, #28, the smallest kid on the field. His team is in the white uniforms.
     

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