Ian Bishop: "MLS is of similar standard to the English SECOND division."

MK, I think you are even being too generous. IMHO, MLS is equivalent to the bottom half of D1 at best, with 3-4 teams being D2 quality. That is based on putting MLS squads out there for an entire campaign - I think SJ (and maybe 1 or 2 others) could compete with almost all D1 teams in a one-off situation; particularly when scouting and preparation is minimal.

Most teams do not have quality in all 11 positions (the thin bench doesn't help, either). That would make it easier to change tactics to shut teams down.

Regarding DC: they are absolute crap and are lacking in talent in so many areas. They might even struggle in D2.

 

"3-4 teams being D2 quality" is standard for the bottom of D1. We agree on DCU. I'm not sure how your post is different than mine, other than mentioning thin benches, which I obviously agree with.

You've got SJ and "maybe 1 or 2 others" at the top of D1, and "3-4" at the bottom of D1. That leaves 4-6 in the middle of D1. In other words, a fairly even distribution across the D1 spectrum. Exactly my point.

 

It was late so I probably wasn't clear. To be more specific: IMO, 3-4 MLS teams are relegation-zone D2 quality and that DC would most likely be relegated to D3 (I was trying to be really nice in my orig post).

I think SJ would be the only team that could effectively compete in D1 over the course of a season, and they and 1-2 others would be competitive with top D1 teams in a one-off situation. The rest of the teams would be fighting relegation in the bottom-half of D1. MLS teams just don't have quality in every position - IMO, SJ is the only exception because they have versatile players. In addition to the lack of quality on the pitch, the benches are very thin, not just in numbers, but in quality. Of course the lack of quality affects tactics and I think most MLS teams are not D1 quality tactically - the talent restricts the ability of coaches to even attempt tactical changes.

No, sadly my view is more pessimistic than yours. Don't get me wrong, I want MLS to succeed and promote it constantly. I may be too pessimistic, but I really thought the quality of games would improve with contraction, but I haven't seen it.

 

I disagree...Bradley & Schmid coached teams are definitely top tier Nationwide D1 if not Premiership relegation fighters...San Jose has the personnel, but the coaching needs several more years before it can be considered 'consistent' but should be a definite D1 side...Nationwide D1 is not as talented as many people here give it credit for.

 

Interesting theory, but it doesn't jibe with a) Onandi Lowe's play at R&D compared to his play in MLS and b) Thorrington's place with Huddersfield compared to his place with the USMNT, and compare *that* to Convey's place with the USMNT.

And probably Savarese's role in MLS vs. his role with Swansea.

To put it another way, there's tons of evidence to suggest that Pope would be such an outstanding player in D2, that almost by himself he could keep his team up. And then throw in some other decent players like Rimando and Convey....

 

Did I mention that Ian Bishop is a wanker!

 

Stuart -

Forest scored 2 goals in the opening 8 minutes of the game. From that point on Miami controlled posession. Miami scored 3 goals and Forest was trying too, because it was very physical, several cards were shown including a red card to Miami's Keith Beach. I tried finding Michelle's article from the Miami herald the day after the game, but I guess it's not online anymore.

As for Fulham, it was pretty evenly played when the starters were there. After the Llamosa sendoff the game turned to crap. Even Fulhams manager said the Fusion starters played them evenly.


It's a shame that when Miami beats a quality oppenent thier fans call it a joke comeback. No wonder they don't have a team anymore.

 

Ted, pardon me putting it this way, but no serious soccer fan confuses a serious competitive game with a game played as a fiendly against a team vactioning in the sun, and draws conclusions from it. To say that "we run rings around them" is both misleading and irrelevant given the friendly context. Now you appear to be saying we were unlucky against Fulham (was the score 5-0 or 5-1, I don't recall?)

Btw, Forest are not a quality opposition. Manchester United or Arsenal would be a quality opposition (or even my Manchester City). Forest finished ninth bottom of the second tier last year. Like Gazza, their great years were a long time ago, when Clough was their coach.

I applaud you sticking up for The Fusion in this way, and I would love to agree with you. I had four season tickets, went to all home games (including pre-season friendlies) and even to Tampa and New York to see the Fusion play the Beautiful Game. But, while I saw us develop greatly, I don't think a comparison of us against English First Division teams is all that favorable for us. At he same time, I have no doubt that we would have improved and made the comparison meaningful at some stage, but it was too early. They disbanded us, just as we were developing, to prop the rest of the league up.

 

This is one of those barroom discussions that is practically impossible to prove one way or the other. MLS has thin benches, and so could not compete in a full season with D1. However, in a small tournament, I think you'd find the team's starting 11s rather equal. There are only 10 MLS teams, so this makes things rather difficult to test.

I am not certain of my position, I can only hypothesize. I'm sure you feel the same well.

Let us simply say that Andy Bennett's is the upper bound, yours is the lower bound, and I'm somewhere in the middle, closer to the truth.

 

Now we know Stuart is delirious.

 

Yeah, well you could say that about three or four MLS players as well (McBride, Donovan, Pope, Mathis).

It's not a good comparison because the shape of the two leagues are completely different. Whatever the "average" level of play is in MLS, their ain't players like Landon Donvan or Clint Mathis who consistently muck about the second division so the comparison doesn't fit with any of the English leagues.

 

Well there are some problems which were evident in the Galaxy/Quakes game tonight. First off, I think there are lots of players with talent, but who often haven't the slightest idea where they're supposed to be on the pitch. Manny Lagos of the Quakes showed some tremendous ability tonight and mixed in with it some of the most awful decision making and positioning (running over teammate Landon Donovan as he was about to put the ball into the open net for starters) I've seen this year.

In other words, I think if you put some of the MLS players in the English system for a few years, you no longer have MLS caliber players, but better.

Nevertheless, guys like Ruiz and Twellman could probably be dangerous attacking players for some Division 1 teams, with both having considerable upside to be better.

 

Spot on, Mario.

I think the KC Wizards' result against the MFL's Morelia last night (6-1 loss, but 0-0 at halftime!) speaks volumes about MLS' main problem: lack of depth. KC has tons of injuries, takes a depleted squad, their Russian forward is denied admittance because Morelia (!) -- as is customary for teams hosting teams from another country -- failed to arrange for his visa, then has one of their starters carted off and another unfairly ejected, well, you've got a recipe for disaster:

http://www.mlsnet.com/content/02/cc0808kc.html

When healthy, MLS squads are match for pretty much anyone. When they're relying on A-League call-ups and are sporting a three-man bench, it's a whole different ballgame.

My $0.02 on the subject...

 

Good post. The unflattering angle to your comments is that the league is actually NOT doing the stellar job at developing talent that it has been given credit for post-WC. If MLS were truly doing a good job developing young American talent, the thin benches would at least be of better quality.

This is particularly true when you consider the "creative midfielder" position. There are only ten teams in the league, but that position has Preki, Pibe, Nowak, Etch, Cien, etc. Those 5 are past their prime, but still hold down a starting role. Heck, even Rooney at 35 has filled that role in NE, Tab in NJ, Wilmar-Perez at 32 is splitting time with Martino and I believe Pareja at 34 still plays alot in Big D.

Now I'm starting to depress myself......

 

Good posts-- that's like 3 in a row, undoubtedly a BS record (sadly, with mine, this streak will come to an end)...

But don't get too depressed. What people often miss is that #10s are rare everywhere and good 10s keep on playing into their 30s regularly (though maybe not their late 30s as in MLS). The new guys coming through, like Martino and Vaca, are pretty good. More established players like Donovan might also fill that role too.

But is MLS not doing enough to develop players? Well, I think the real problem is not that they don't develop the players they get-- it's that the rosters really are small. Maybe it's kind of the same thing, but I think MLS has done very well with its young players. While in every country some prospects never turn out, there also haven't been any flameouts of the most highly touted youngins in MLS.

 

Who gives a s**t what this crybaby thinks I hope he and the rest of the world continue to ignore MLS we have seen the dramatic improvement of our MNT since the league was formed.This nation could win the WC by beating Brazil in the final 4-0 and still the rest of the world would not give us the respect we deserve.So keep on ignoring and insulting MLS and inthe years to come we will continue to SHOCK THE WORLD!!!!!.

 

What is this debate all about anyway? It's not as if MLS teams are going to play Nationwide teams in competition any time soon to find the answer to this question. The important issue for MLS is how it compares with the professional leagues of other sports.

 

MLS players scored 5 goals at the World Cup (6 if you count Agoos). MLS players recorded three assists at the World Cup and one of their shots on goal led to an easy tap in for a teammate. How many English second division players were even at the World Cup (and I'm not referring to sitting in the stands)?

MLS' two top scorers were not at the World Cup (one didn't make the U.S. team the other is a full international for a country that did not qualify). Both are quality players who could play on a regular basis for a good team in a good European league (Holland, France, etc.). How many English second division players are of that quality?

I could go on about this, but the fact of the matter is U.S. soccer will still is getting the short shift in Europe simply because it is U.S. soccer. England - Final 8 of the World Cup. U.S.A. - Final 8 of the World Cup. England - No where to be found at the Olympics. U.S.A. - Finished fourth in that tournament. And the youth tournament results don't do much to bolster England's future vis a vis that of the U.S. Look, we're a really big country with a really big footballing population. We have some incredible athletes in this sport now and many of them are arriving in MLS. The English second division? It gets table scraps and maybe a loaner every now and again who is worth something or may be worth something some day. No one is saying MLS is the Serie A. But the English second division? Uh, no.

 

Today's Lesson

Careful, careful... You want to mention the World Cup, fine. You want to mention the FIFA U-17 and U-20 Youth Cups, fine. Mentioning the Olympics...

[BUZZ!]

Ever heard of the United Kingdom? Great Britain? Which competes in the Olympics, including athletes from Wales and Scotland? Now recognize that there is NO SUCH THING as a "U.K. soccer team." IT DOESN'T EXIST. Since the F.A.s of Scotland and Wales -- and FIFA, for that matter -- would never allow an English squad to represent "Great Britain," you will NEVER see ANY British or English squad at the Olympics.

Conclusion: a team will never win a tournament it isn't eligible to enter!

Thus ends today's geography lesson...

Nevertheless, I applaud your bravado and stand behind (most of) your sentiment. GO MLS, GO USMNT!

 

Thanks for the props.

I don't think developing talent is the problem (i.e., quality), it's the roster size (i.e., quantity). MLS squads do a fine job developing players, they just don't have enough to overcome even a handful of injuries. Because of the small roster sizes, injuries to 3-4 starters can force an MLS squad to call up A-League reinforcements just to get enough players to run a scrimmage during practice. That's no long-term recipe for success. I truly hope that MLS coaches push, and push hard, for at least two extra roster spots next season, cost cutting be damned.

Foremost among these problems is a lack of a "true" reserve squad. Sure, Faria from the Metro Black is an example of a diamond in the rough who found his way onto an MLS roster all the way to game-in, game-out starter, but there aren't enough of them simply because MLS doesn't have the cash to fund such a large system of youth development. (Yet!)

Martino, Quaranta, Convey, Mapp, Davis and Buddle (dare I mention Adu? I do!) are just a few of the many, many names I could list that impress me tremendously, and that was literally in 5 seconds of thought. If it makes you feel any better, I see at least two or three of these names growing into a true "#10" playmaker for their MLS squads. I can even see Landon Donovan settling into that role more and more if Casey, Wolff and Mathis continue their development as out-and-out forwards.

Of course, there's always Fausto Klinger and Byron Alvarez of my own Metros to undermine my whole argument... BTW, how in the world did we save this thread from degenerating into name-calling? A Big Soccer miracle!

 

Depth of talent

I think we're being a bit too harsh regarding depth of talent. With contraction and the continued growth of the talent base here, most MLS teams have talented (though not always refined) players at every position, and there's actually some talent in the A-League.

Fear not -- I'm not going to lapse into one of those arguments in which I prove that the Rochester Rhinos could hold their own in the English First Division (though I'm wondering about Seattle at this point). But I'd bet there are players in the A-League who could be decent First Division players. (Remember -- the A-League call-ups for injury-plagued MLS teams aren't necessarily the best players available.) Onandi Lowe, already mentioned in this thread, spent most of his U.S. career in the A-League. Stern John, now on his way to the Premiership, was there not too long ago.

Also -- remember when we all thought the national team would be tough to pick because there wasn't much difference between the 20th player and the 50th? We were all debating between Llamosa and Vanney?

To look at the bottom line, look at the bottom of the league. D.C. has a good goalkeeper (Rimando), a few national-team defenders (Pope, Reyes, Nelsen, McKinley), an aging but sometimes brilliant playmaker (Etcheverry), a fantastic wing player working his way back from injury (Olsen), a solid though injury-prone forward (Moreno), a handful of terrific prospects (Quaranta, Convey, Quintanilla), and a coach who worked wonders last season (Hudson). It's hard to judge given all the injury problems they've had, but I don't see that team struggling in the middle of the pack in the Second Division in England. I just don't.

 

Fair enough Beau-- I especially appreciated your sentence to Bishop in your column last week. But what you've described doesn't really tell us about the depth of talent in the league. I think all of the players you've mentioned are great and could certainly hold a spot on some first division teams.

However, to me, the depth issue is not about them: it's about who plays when they go down. The Fire is always a couple of injuries from having to put in Wolyniec. Many of the teams have depth to about 14 players, followed by some very very raw talent or one-dimensional professionals.

When they are at their best, I think MLS teams could compete with most of the first division teams, except for the occasional super-team (i.e. the Fulham team that might have been the best 1st division team in years...) But over a full season complete with injuries?

 

Re: Re: Re: Ian Bishop: "MLS is of similar standard to the English SECOND division."

I meant to say "without looking it up".

 

Through the Nationwide meat grinder, maybe not. But to go back to Bishop's original point (from which I drifted in my last post), that shouldn't mean that the standard of play in an MLS game is worse than an English First Division game. We could say "What if the rosters were depleted through the difficult First Division schedule?" But we could also say "What if MLS expanded its roster size and salary cap so that Wynalda, not Wolyniec, was the Fire's fifth-choice forward?"

So it's a difficult comparison -- not quite apples to oranges, but perhaps apples to pears. I'd say, though, that there's more evidence to refute Bishop's claim than there is to support it.

Finally, does anyone else think Bishop would be an interesting A-League player?