I'll say this: I believe the stories about his drinking this past weekend. I believe Mr. Page and Kim K. If you could pick out two people to have witnessed this, these are two very trustworthy sources, in my opinion. What I want to see is MLS and DC United being professional about this whole thing. If that means calling a spade a spade and backing out, then fine. If that means asking him to explain why he behaved the way he did and have him see a doctor to get the ok or nay...then fine. If that means accepting his drinking and associated antics as a piece of the package...well, that's when it becomes a grey area. In the end, those who are steadfastly against or for this move just aren't making sense to me. Those who are on-the-fence seem to be taking the media, Paul, DC, Ray, and all of it for what it is: confusing but interesting. Cheers, Tim
Definitely agree with the accuracy of Kim's report. No question there. It's the idea that the team is waffling over it that would surprise me. Seems to me that if it was an issue, the thing would be off, no more questions. YOu mention having a doctor look at him and I can't help but wonder why (I think I understand you to say that this is about drinking). We have this idea of "alcoholism" as an easily identified thing and I don't think we should. What is the line between a person who is an "alcoholic" and one who just drinks too much (and subsequently, should drink less)??? It is called a sickness, and yes, this is true to some extent. But the cure ultimately is the person deciding not to let alcohol control his life. Is it that he loves drinking so much, or is that he chooses to drink excessively to deal with whatever? I think it's the latter, really. So if a person has gotten control over whatever it was that made him drink excessively, could he theoretically drink some? Is everyone who ever gets drunk an alcoholic? I think we know the answer to that is "no." Just some food for thought.
I agree with GersMan. I don't think I have read anything that says he was out of control Saturday night. They said he sent someone back to ask what hotel he was staying in. That means nothing to me because I stayed downtown Saturday night and found out Sunday that I was at the Capitol Hilton, not the Washington Hilton and they are two different hotels.
that's a good point. theoretically, he could - but I just haven't seen that many people make that transition - if only for the fact that their loved ones don't and can't deal with the 'possibility' of the loss of control that comes with drinking alcohol excessively. I think what everybody wants (probably Gazza himself, too) is the assurance that alcohol won't get in the way of some good soccer and the mls' future. unfortunately, that assurance will only come with time. I, on a personal level, hope he makes good. Nothing like a 'Behind the Music' story to get you going!
Oh, the other Kim K..... I also believe that Gazza was drinking. Hudson himself alludes to it in Ed Morgans' article today. http://www.jrnl.com/cfdocs/new/ffx/story.cfm?paper=ffx§ion=sp&snumber=03 Also seems like other teams are willing to shaft us regarding the discovery pick....maybe MLS will need to step in and force a trade. If Gazza is worth the effort or not will depend on what we give up for him, and how he performs on the pitch. And if he keeps the team out of the Metro section of the paper.
thanks for posting this sundevil9 - a very thorough handling of the situation. This quote from Hudson answers a lot for me: ``I wouldn't say he's been Snow White. I'd say he's acted admirably, but he still likes a good time with the boys, and we all do. Everybody else does. Would we have loved to have seen him drinking his tonic water and Perrier and that's it and eating health food? Yeah, that would have been nice. But that wouldn't have been Paul,'' Hudson said. ``We couldn't have asked more of him and he couldn't have portrayed himself any more than what he's done.'' So I don't think the drinking is the snag, at least not for Ray. Which leaves the league, and money.....
Sounds as if we are facing the same idea's that caused another thread to have to be closed. I am getting tired of certain teams sitting around waiting for MLS to drop players in their laps. (These teams know who they are.) Some teams never use their discovery picks, while United is constatnly looking to upgrade it's roster. Or they steal other teams propects by keeping their pick and signing the player, themselves. United spend time and money scouting and others reap the benfits. I am also tired of this belief that in order to get Gazza, United should have to give up Convey, Olsen, Tino or Nelson.
Having seen some of the recent interviews, I've actually begun feeling a little sympathy for him. His reputation in Europe has gotten the better of him, and he seems to need a little of the relative anonynimity that playing in the US would provide. I'm still not convinced he'd be a good fit, but I can't blame him for wanting to quiet things down a bit.
After reading more posts and Ed Morgan's article, I'm officially back on the fence of being neither for or against the guy. I'll take the TEConner approach-confusing but interesting don't know what to make of it yet Quotes like "`I'll keep on coming and try to make a name for myself...I'd like to get this game on the map in America" shows some determination and character
By doctor, I meant professional psychiatric evaluation. I am aware that a simple strep-throat-like diagnosis does not exist for alcoholism. But it is possible, I understand, to determine if someone is badly taken with alcoholism by consulting the patients medical history and discussing this with a psychiatrist. But I'm just talking out my you-know-what...I don't know jack about alcoholism, except what I read. The primary thing is this: is he off or isn't he? If he is off, then what's up with the shots and beer? I have to say, Ed showed that Hudson revealed a lot in that piece for the Journal. He revealed that (1) he is anguishing over this and is concerned about the perception and (2) he was downplaying yet admitting to the drinking. The idea to invite Gazza back to the road-trip in Chicago could be brilliant. Why not take him along again, see how he behaves in the Windy City? I know that I couldn't resist the food and drinks it that city, maybe there would be a confirmatory incident or two...who knows. All for not though, as the "personal matters" trump card was played. Regardless, I'll keep reading anything about this. Soap-opera stuff. Tim
Seriously pal, are you willfully ignoring what I post or do you just not get it? Columbus are the last team with a discovery pick this season, IIRC. They used their first on Fredy Garcia. They used one last year on Daniel Torres. Warzycha - the Crew's first ever "discovery" - is still on the team. Which means we have one slot left for a discovery player (you can carry no more than 4 at any one time). Jim Smith has also stated publicly that the Crew are currently <A HREF=http://www.dispatch.com/crew/crew.php?story=dispatch/news/sports02/jul02/1387952.html>pursuing another discovery option</A> of their own. IE, possibly not trading it to DC. I'm tired of DC fans thinking they are entitled to Columbus' discovery pick. If you want it, you have to pay market value. If DC are offering a 6th round pick, and Columbus want Moreno and Pope, and neither side is willing to accept the other's offer, then clearly the market price is somewhere in the middle. Supply is down, demand is up. Ergo, price of the good goes up. Unfortunately (from my point of view) it doesn't much matter what Columbus do. MLS has done all kinds of crazy stuff (like fabricating the once-used "major and minor allocation" tags to get Stoitchkov in Chicago) to break it's own rules. It's a joke, but it is to be expected.
Feeling picked on...............take your own advice, and read my post..............I did not say Columbus, did I.................this is not a free market entity, it is a single entity, where evrything inthe league belongs to MLS. So don't think that if needed Columbus won't part with the discovery pick.
Sorry to tell you, but the value of that discovery pick in a trade is going down, not up. If the deal were made today, Gazza would play 8 games AT MOST. Wait another week, and he'll be available for even fewer games. To continue your little economic analogy, the potential return on investment is diminishing with time. The only thing we hear is that Columbus is pursuing some mystery player all of a sudden. I'll believe it when I see it. Sounds like BS posturing to me. At this point, I'm guessing that the deal will get nixed since Columbus is going to hold onto their pick. Oh, well. I say f' it and start thinking about next year. We have too many injuries and question marks, and trading half the team for a discovery on the 5% chance that Gazza can get us to the playoffs seems silly. If it were the first week of the season, I could understand all the whining indignation about this possible trade coming out of Columbus. As it is, I don't feel sorry for them one bit. After all the **** MLS has done to DC since '96, they're the ones complaining about getting the shaft. Ha!
I do know Jack about alcoholism , and Fred and George and the gang. I do substance abuse research. Gazza has clearly had a history of a drinking problem. He's had significant problems due to drinking (likely including the spouse abuse). A big part of the decline of his career could be attributed to drinking. He's also been to treatment in several settings. This indicates that his drinking problem is relatively serious. Obviously, he's not begging on the streets, but he has some definate problems. With this kind of history he might be able to drink occationally and non-problematically, like a glass of wine or beer with dinner. This isn't the same as doing shots. As well all know, doing shots are intended to accomplish one thing. Getting drunk. Getting a guy with a drinking problem drunk is not a good thing, unless you want him relapsing to his drinking problem. This was not a good idea on the part of Ray and DC United, and not very fair to Gazza. I've made it clear that I don't think DC should sign Gazza, but more importantly I'd hate to see Gazza headed back to problem drinking. And Gazza with a drinking problem in a DC kit would be terrible for everybody.
Am I the only one frustrated with the MLS owning players contracts and being able to decide who a team can have? The more I hear about how the league is run, the more disinterested I get. I can't help but feel at times that is sanitised and manipulated from the top. Gazza an alcoholic? This is an interesting point. He is basically no different than the majority of Northern English men. We binge drink. A lot of beer in a short space of time. I am not condoning it, but it is very common. Robbie Fowler, Don Hutchinson, Lee Bowyer are all examples of British players who by the example Gazza set on Saturday could in this thread be called alcoholics. Alan Shearer and Keith Gilliespie get in a drunken fight in Ireland, Sheringham in trouble with the England team for drinking. The list goes on. My point being that the alcohol abuse is not a reason for me to discard Gazza. The MLS has the chance to get one of footballs greats. If he messes up they can say they gave him a second chance, and he failed. Why would/should it reflect badly on the MLS, it is all how they handle the PR.
The term "alcoholic" doesn't benefit anybody and just makes things confusing. Yes, lots of players binge drink and lots of them come back on game day and play quite well, and don't have lots of problems because of it. The players that you cite don't have the kind of problems with alcohol that Gazza's had. The issue is the problems they have due to alcohol and the extent to which it effects their play on the pitch. Gazza's life, including his fitness and ability to play the game, has been greatly affected by alcohol. Can he resolve it and play to his potential? Very likely. Can he play to his potentioal and binge on the weekend with his DCU teammates? Very unlikely.
MLS/DCU can barely promote themselves do you really feel confident they could spin a disaster properly? I don't. K
It is simple from a marketing standpoint. I would never watch DC play unless they were playing the Quakes. If Gazza is signed, I will watch every game I can just for sh**ts and giggles if nothing else. I watched a bit of the Metrostars and Chicago this weekend. Oh my God, I can't believe professional defenders are that bad.
Seems like the deal still on, look at the bottom of the page http://www.suntimes.com/output/soccer/cst-spt-soccin30.html
Hey, can I object to the way this message was written? Nobody, not Ray, not DC as an organization, not a teammate or a fan, nobody as far as I know forcibly put those shots down Gazza's throat. Or even forced him into a bar. I just don't want this issue to become twisted into one of those internet "half-truths" that will find its way into a 2003 thread entitled "Fire Hudson Now!" As in, "He brought in a recovering alcoholic and bought shots for him!" when thats clearly not what happened. The rest of the message I agree with. If Hudson & DC are going to condone this behavior, maybe its better if he's not here, for us and for him. Yes, some players can party and drink and still show up on game day and not make huge messes of their personal & professional lives. Gazza has never shown an ability to do that. But I'll wait and see if he is able to stay sharp and focused before I worry about after-game drinking with his mates.
Then how about we say it very poor form of DC and Ray Hudson? It's like taking a diabetic out to the all-you-can-eat ice cream bar, or someone who's allergic to strawberries out berry picking. It's just not cool.
Does anyone think the personal business he had to attend to could be packing up his stuff and getting ready for a move to DC? As long as gazza isn't in the bar every night doing shots and causing trouble I don't see the problem with him having some drinks with the boys after the game. There are more than a few DCU players I've seen completely blasted over the years at post game parties.