I can't believe there's not a thread yet about the vote in Parliament

God, I figured most Brits had the good sense to stay out of this often most jingoistic of forums.

And the aforementioned jingos ("Maybe the jingos ate your baby.") probably don't care if 120 Labor MP's bolted the party on this issue. Good thing the Tories can be depended upon to carry the White Man's Burden. The opposition only got 190 votes, if I recall the BBC story correctly.

 

Did anyone catch the quote from one of the Labor "rebels" regarding Bush? Apparently, he was the object of much of their anger and distrust, and NBC (I think it was) showed one of them calling Bush a "bible-thumping, born again, right wing" something or other.

 

It's all really a matter of perspective, isn't it?

BBC:Blair suffers major revolt on Iraq

AP:House of Commons Backs Blair on Iraq

 

All you need to know about the respective media biases in U.S. and Europe.

 

I think this is all a plot by Bush to get the Tories back in power. Think about it.

 

That gets a Tony Kornheiser, "Claaaassssic."

 

Hesiod at counterspin.blogspot.com said the same thing, more or less, about getting that durn Socialist out in favor of right-thinking Conservatives.

But...aren't there easier ways to depose Tony Blair? I mean, you'd have to think the administration also wanted to destroy NATO, the UN, every arms treaty we've ever signed...oh.

I think I preferred it when it was all about oil....

 

The Parliament will support Blair - they are not going to undercut (at the end of the day) their own PM in this critical event. They will bitch and whine and moan and call him Bush's lapdog (so it is on the record) and then they will vote with him when he asks them.

Bush is not going to do squat without Blair's OK - and Blair will not do it without an aye vote from Parliament.

Simple as that.

 

The AP reporter is obviously clueless.

A few quick facts:

1/ it is the biggest rebellion within a Government party for more than a century;

2/ it is approximately double the next largest rebellion during the Blair Government;

3/ if most of the Tories hadn't voted in support of Blair, he would have lost the vote;

4/ approximately 200 of the Labour MPs are on the Government payroll. 121 Labour MPs represents a clear majority of those not on the Government payroll.

5/ there was a three-line whip put on the Labour MPs - this means that maximum pressure was applied by the Government to "persuade" their MPs to vote for them.

If events don't turn in Blair's favour, he could be out of #10 by the end of this year.

-----------------------

For those suggesting that it is a conspiracy to help the Tories win, I don't think that even George Bush could do that. The only parties that are really benefitting presently are the Liberals and the Nationalists in Scotland.

 

"bible thumping"? Because the man believes in God? How many presidents have said "God bless america" or have made a God reference in their speeches? Almost every single one so I don't buy all of this Bush roasting. Wow, i didn't realize believing in God was such a terrible thing. Belief in God is definately something to be afraid of..........

 

God is great. I testify that there is but one God and Allah is his prophet.

And Manny, an ellipsis consists of three dots (...) and signifies the beginning or end of a sentence fragment. What you wrote above looks like computer-smiley-speak for a line of cocaine.

 

The size of the revolt carries most significance in a domestic context. It is, in fact, not just the largest revolt within an government party in the last century, but the largest on record. So make that a millenium. The last time they had a revolt in Parliament this big, they did it in Norman French.

It is instructive to note that neither the report from the BBC or AP mentions the conscessions that Blair and Straw explicitly offered in the course of the debate. A second parliamentary vote, absolute commitment to a second UN resolution ... this is big news for the observers abroad who depend on the UK being on board for this. The rest is of almost total domestic importance.

For a start, it means we now have a Labour government that is reliant on HM's Official Opposition to get crucial votes through Parliament. That has the obvious knock-on effect on the electoral credibility of the Tories (a dead duck for more than 5 years now).

Which in turn means that a government already continuously attacked for it's "control-freakery" (a horrid addition to the English language, thank you Micheal Howard ... ) will have to get positively Orwellian in it's grip on the Parliamentary Labour party in order to advance any of the contentious domestic issues it wishes to pass, which also face growing opposition within the party (privatisation of pensions, University fees, Fisheries and merchant navy cuts). So the Blair government becomes increasingly hamstrung at home with every step it marches in the US line.

And most significantly, this is the first real indication that in this instance, his well-known conceit about getting away with foreign adventure obfuscation at times of rising domestic opposition has been the catastrophic miscalculation of his standing that many of us have known it would be for some time. This could ruin his Premiership - the rival power axis within the Labour party of Beckett and Brown would just LOVE for Tory Blair to be hoisted on the petard of his own presumptious conceits about the nature of leadership.

 

Interesting analysis Mike. Cheers, man.

 

No worries. ~dnom~ ...

 

One of my biggest fears is that Bush and his bible-thumping cronies really do think a war on Iraq is the beginning of a new Crusade, and this bullshite about a "democratic and peaceful Palestine" actually means a "democratic and peaceful Muslim-free Palestine and Middle East."

And no, I'm not joking. The religious right scares the fuck out of me, and I really think that some of the people who have Bush's ear really want to see Armageddon.

I've been afraid of that ever since James Watt mentioned that there was no point protecting the environment since the end of the world was coming soon anyway.

 

http://zapatopi.net/afdb.html

 

Cute, Alex. But since I'm a heathen non-believer, nothing, not even an aluminum foil hat, can save me when the Rapture comes.

If you think the religious right isn't looking forward to the end of the world, you haven't been paying attention.

 

So we can't let the UN, France, or Germany have a veto over US national security, but its ok for the British Parliament to have veto power?

 

The original poster’s quote is exaggerated. I don’t agree that Bush would not go it alone (or rather, without Britain) if it came to a complete collapse in our government’s position on Iraq. Nor is the issue of a parliamentary “nay” to the operation likely - as others have pointed out, the size of the revolt is one thing. The passing of the vote in favour of action another.

What is interesting to consider is whether the Bush administration might not come to view the Blair government’s problems with this as a convenient “out” for themselves, if the Franco-German proposals gain momentum and/or a second resolution at the UN is not attained. The momentum of their belligerence has thus far precluded any course of action other than a full military solution, but, if skilfully enough played, the UK might just yet become seen in Washington as a convenient lead down from the parapets, without undue loss of face.

I dunno … just a thought.

 

But SJFC and Matt,
btousely already explained it was "as simple as that." What are you guys going on about?!

 

I am a believer and I know those evangelicals allied with Bush are supporting the reconstruction of the third temple in Jerusalem in order to make conditions right for Jesus' return during their lifetime.

Having read Revelations, I cannot find any mention of a Rapture of the faithful. I think one bible "scholar" couldn't imagine God leaving behind all the true believers during the Last World War and came up with this idea.

But then, I don't see how these people could imagine that God would carry them away before the end of the world when they've failed to live up to His Son's commandments (Love God with all your heart and love your neighbor as yourself).

Let's face it, turning a blind eye when Palestinian civilians are killed and their homes and olive trees are bulldozed is hardly Christian, in the true sense of the word.

 

Is that the Raelian UFO embassy??


Alex

 

I obviously don't share Bush & Co's views on religion either. But I'm just a WEE bit more worried about Islamo-fascists around the globe who preach the downfall of America, finance terrorism and now carry out attacks on the US and other allies. That's a REAL and urgent threat as opposed to GWB's views or perceived views about Armageddon.