Africans play very phisical and you can even call it crazy sometimes. Refs know this and try to make it clear that kind of behaviour is not accepted on the field. And believing they are all vitcims of the refs is just lying to yourselve. Stop blaming the cicumstances and start looking for reasons that can be chanced by themselves. Blaming the ref's for 30 years, come on, you can do better than that.
but you are completely ignoring a valid point he has brought up. Many african teams have been the victims of terrible officiating. In 1998 Cameroon scored 2 legitimate goals vs Chile that were dissalowed, this would have qualified them for the second round. 2006 CIV were denied a legitimate penalty vs Holland, Ukraine were awarded a phantom penalty vs Tunisia, Togo were also denied a clear penalty vs Switzerland, Essien was given a phantom yellow when he was the one who was actually fouled vs Czech rep. This lead to him missing the second round vs Brazil. African teams have been shafted by refs more than any other confederation. I think a big part of it is that some refs have ideas that Africans are rough, which is a very ridiculous assumption, that you also seem to have.
Must say I had to giggle with this post because I couldn't follow by a mile. It would help if you made clear if you expect the groups to be what you have written down or is it a fairer set up?
true, I think most times bad calls are just that bad calls/mistakes, yet I think the smaller nations tend to get the bad end of officiating more often, I also think that african nations tend to get worse officiating calls on average than other confeds because of a false assumption that all african players are rougher than other players.
If we start a thread with ref fails blaming the advancements of teams it would not end. Every country has its scars in that department. What about Australia Italy 2006, that penalty was a farce. Belgiums goal against Brazil 2002. This is what pops up into my mind in 2 seconds but I can go on and on. The S-Korea games against Spain, Italy etc. . The lineball of 66. It is so lame. My Holland was knocked out by Russia in the EC. Reasons that are looked for in the media are from technical or privat nature. No one has pointed at the red card that was given to a Russion player but retreated for the wrong reasons by the linesman. Holland would have won against a 10 men Russia. That's an example from just last year for my country. Ref descisions are influencial but to use them as arguments for advancements is lame. It's reactive. Certainly if you talk for a complete continent.
Yes. But Vorm is in my opinion a better goalie. No matter - even Stekelenburg is better than Barry. We're not disputing it. Dutch defence: I didn't delve too much into who plays the first team. I took the defence line from Holland's last 2-3 games. Had problems figuring out who played where and couldn't find a proper RB, so... I agree Kalou has a finishing problem and inconsistent and in general is probably worse than Robben. But not by much. I like Kalou, but if you want put in Gervinho or Sanogo (albeit I think Sanogo is a lanky and cumbersome striker... but Holland has a lot of those also...). I would also put up the Kone brothers or Dindane, but they haven't been performing lately, so... That said must I remind you that Robben was sold from his former club and deemed surplus... p.s. Kalou is the third striker for Chelsea after Drogba and Anelka. Sometimes plays as winger and plays quite regularly, albeit on various positions. He is also more of a supporting striker. Ehm... no he ain't. Keita may be underrated, but he is definitely better than Kuyt or Robben. Besides Kuyt plays just about as much for Liverpool as Kalou does for Chelsea. And they've scored a similar amount of goals. Both strikers are comparable. That would probably have to go to Drogba (solely speaking of strikers). Besides Drogba has much greater technical abilities and assistwise is brilliant. One game and you are commenting on his efficiency in front of goal? Look at the statistics - Drogba has been the most efficient striker in Britain 4 years running. One Barca game does not change that... I won't dispute Siaka Tiene, who is a sorely overlooked player on club level, but have you ever seen Zokora play? He is the best midfielder in the Ivorian squad and much better than Yaya Toure. You above comment basically says you have no idea who Zokora is and have never seen him play at St Etiene, Tottenham or Sevilla. He is not a goalscorer, but he is a giant in midfield. Arguably the best DM in the world. Something we agree on
Exactly. Besides the one USA call for Ghana I don't remember any world cup decision that ever went the way of an African team. Meanwhile your defence is it happens to every team... What we are pointing out is that as far as African teams in general are concerned this happens almost every time. Maybe you'll treat is as a conspiracy theory, but it is something shared around Africa. I even heard the u20 coach of Ghana saying in public that he instructed his players to play it very delicate, cuz refs like giving Africans red cards and awarding dubious penalties. Then he also went on to say that this was an integral and important tactic at the world cup... EDIT: As far as I agree to the Spain - South Korea match I strongly disagree wth the Italy match. Watched it again some time ago and I found that the refereeing was spot on.
Haha, better than Robben. I giggled. Robben was destroying defenses at Chelsea and people spoke of Robbendepentia at Madrid but a Galatasary player is sure better. You don't move from Lyon to Galatasary if you have any ambition. Kuyt is an animal that proves his value every week for Liverpool. I'm sorry this one doesn't fly I already gave you that one, but he does not compensate enough. Also v Persie has some ability's that are special. I would like somebody to check out if Drogba has more assists than v Persie. Could be but would like to double check that one. Anyway I'm not uncomfortable with having v Persie. I have to be honest, Drogba is one of my favourite players. He is an army on it's own, like Zlatan. I just was pissed he couldn't be a Gerrard in that Barca game. I have seen him play at Tottenham. He didn't jump out to me at that time and he didn't move from Tottenham to Madrid or Barca or to EPL top 4. I'm more comfortable with the dutch players that go along with the real title contenders/defenders Bayern (where v Bommel is captain) and Inter (where sneijder has become the ditributor of the team in no time). They don't only play for bigger teams, they fullfill special roles in those teams.
I would just like to state that we are talking about present form. Robben has been great at times and his start at Bayern was impressive. That said he hasn't really performed at Real (with the exception of the odd game). As to Keita. I am basing my opinion mostly on what he presents in the national team. I agree there may be more prolific Ivorian strikers (then again Keita is more of a winger/creator/attacking midfielder than striker), but I really like how he plays in the national team and he complements Drogba perfectly. I agree he had two poor seasons at Lyon (preceded by a great showings in Lille and followed by a great start at Galatasaray), but his price tag of $18 mln isn't out of thin air. He was also misused at Lyon and placed a striker position, while he plays better as AM or winger. Keita has exceptional ball control and is famed for making long mazy runs and dribbling through defences. His final touch does tend to let him down, but in general I think he is comparable with Adebayor. Just so you have something to go by: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPZM_8eIXG0"]YouTube - Kader Keita[/ame] One more thing: The club one plays in does not always show how good a player you are. Arguably one of the best midfielders in the world is Aboutreika, who plays for Al Ahly in Egypt... hardly an important club. Other players of mention are Forlan, Pienaar, Gourcuff. Similarly Essien or Drogba were great players before they made it in the big English clubs. Didier Zokora is really a tremendous player and I have heard it was his own decision to join Tottenham even though he had offers from MU, Arsenal and Chelsea. Just look at how Sevilla has been playing lately. And Zokora has a lot to do with this (he has had a tremendous influence on the organisation of the defence and midfield).
Thats why Real Madrid legend di Stefano called it Robbendepentia at a certain moment. Also go ask at the Real forum if they think Robben was a loss to them. In all fairness you stated we would talk about the squad not if that translates into a good team. But it's oke to me. I like people that talk in passion about their national team. No but career choices do speak. You can be very good and busy moving up, by that not playing at a top team, but moving from Lyon to Galatasary is moving down and you know that as well. Calling him a better player than somebody that played for Chelsea, Madrid, Bayern just doesn't fly for me. Without injury's Robben could be WPY. But could it be that his descision have to do with his fear being a sub at those teams. Could it be he couldn't stand the pressure at a must-become-champion club. There are so many players that are brilliant in the shadow but can't stand the heat of champion team. We don't know, but because of that I formulated my sentence with care and used the word comfortable. Bommel and Sneijder have the edge for me in that department, but also having the role the have at those clubs.
This is most likely exactly what happened. But African players in general have a self-confidence issue. Zokora is held as one of the best midfielders out there, but has apparently passed over chances to play for the big boys. Yes. Maybe he shouldn't have been afraid of playing in a top 10 European team, but that doesn't say much about his playing quality. As far as I'm concerned between Zokora and Yaya Toure there is no competition and Zokora wins hands down. Toure is more a classical DM, while Zokora is more like Essien, a box-to-box player with excellent passing abilities. Going back to going up and game quality: Jay Jay Okocha was one of the best footballers ever, but the best club he ever played at was PSG. There is also the example of Kalusha Bwalya, who was arguably one of the best players in the world at the beginning of the 90s, but only played for PSV Eindhoven. Heck... lets not stop at Africa... Pele never played outside of Brasil. As far as strikers are concerned: I could replace Kalou, who tends to be criticized with the prominent and in-form Gervinho. I could replace Kader Keita with the goal-scoring Sanogo or the key Marseille player Bakari Kone. But I decided to go for Kader Keita, because he is pure class and for Kalou, because on a good day is unstoppable. Kalou was also out of favour with Avram Grant, but when he plays he is usually very prominent (he had a great period during Hiddink's run). Both players also complement Drogba perfectly playing a more wing or role. One thing to note: African teams have a confidence issue. It is best observed if they play with Brasil. One word about Germany: For 10-20 years everytime anyone looks at the German squad you can not help feel underawed by the single players. I remember that during 2002 you looked at the squad and could say... my gog... where have the good days gone... but then they go and make it to the final. Namewise the current squad is better than the one in 2002 and 2006, but Ballack is really out of form and Essien is basically playing his role as the creative entity in the Chelsea midfield. That said Mertesacker is really having a great season. It remains to be seen and Germany may just win as usual, despite not really having anyone big in their side... cheers
Are you one of the many BigSoccer posters who rate players on the basis of what their football manager game tells them they're worth?
That was then and now is now. We live in an era where globelization is taking place. Globilization leads to concentration. You have by that clear winners and lozers. EPL is a winner if not the winner. Even the mighty Real Madrid are fearing this rapid process and Perez is pleading for a Euroleage because of it. He sees TV money going to EPL in bigger numbers and fears for the gap that is a result of it. He wants to chance the set up to break the trend that is now taking place. The world of football has chanced so much the last 5 years and it keeps going on. I'm more comfortable with a player as Kuyt that went from Feyenoord to Liverpool and became a force with Gerrard and Torres (he is one of Benitez favourite players) than somebody that moved from Lyon to Galatasary. Also I think Kuyt is of bigger value for Liverpool than Kalou for Chelsea (both teams are equelly strong). Robben for me is in a leauge by his own after hearing all the names. Both teams have bench that is stacked with talent. They say that the team with the best substitudes wins the tournement. Good luck with that luxery. Well must say Brasil has the players and the game to lose you confidence sometimes. The 2002 run was a cakewalk. But the world can learn from their proffesionalism. they are a good oiled machiene when they are in a tournement. Respect for that
Well... we are really heading off-topic right now... but Chelsea is to Liverpool, as Barcelona is to Valencia... they can put up a fight and maybe even win, but in the end everyone knows who is the better side. Last year Chelsea had a worse season and Liverpool was on form and there was only 3 points between them. This season Drogba and Essien are back, whilst Liverpool lost Xabi Alonso, Arbeloa, Hyypia and Nemeth... the Johnson, Kyrgiakos and Aquilani havent really seemed to have worked. p.s. I really expect much more from Ghana than from the Ivory Coast, under the condition they get class strikers up front... you don't win tournaments with midfielders having to shoot all the goals.
First and foremost: At the moment, Özil is the best German player. If Germany makes it to the semis, I expect him to be in the team of the tournament (though I admit that it's a rather big if). Then, Adler is by no means secure, Enke was already announced as first keeper and Adler only played in Russia because Enke got injured. Westermann is also quite unsure. Who will be our RB and 2nd CB (next to Merte) is a mystery, and if Friedrich and Westermann make it, it will be the other way around (Friedrich RB, Westermann CB). Also, we always play with 2 holding mfs, Ballack and Rolfes or Hitzlsperger (possibly Frings, if he makes it back into the team), you only have Ballack. And of course, Germany won't play 4-3-3 anyway, either 4-4-2 or 4-2-3-1. But yes, at least right now, the German attack doesn't look great. Player by player, we are probably not as good as Ivory Coast or the Netherlands. But then, player by player, we are definitely better than Ghana, and you expect more from Ghana than from IC
Maruti Liverpool is no Valencia to Barcalona. Not by a mile. Not by a 100 miles. 5 CL cups with 1 added recently in spectacular fashion and a final even more recently, 18 times English champions (thats 3 times more than Valencia did in la liga) and all it's history is something Chelsea can't even start to dream off. Chelsea is the nouveau riche from England. A club stacked with Russion oil dollars who had almost no trophy's before Abramovich took over. In the period after Abramovich, and you talk about this short period in football history they have an impressive record, but Liverpool was better last year if you look at the EPL list but came short in the CL against Chelsea. But what a game it was, wasn't it? Before that they destroyed Madrid and Manchester in one week in CL/EPL, and they won 2-0 just this week from Manchester. They have not won the EPL yet, but after Mourinhio Chelsea did not to. It is quite legit to say that Liverpool and Chelsea in this time segment are equell. From English top 4 only Arsenal is not as strong as the other 3. Liverpool, Chelsea and Manchester (with Christiano gone) are pretty equell to me.
I think we can all agree that each of us knows our respective teams the best. I haven't seen a lot of Ozil, hence can't really comment. I gave each teams a 4:3:3 squad, as its tough tpo compare 4 midfielders to 3 midfielders. So I evened up the squads even if it isn't the typical formation. Maybe a bad thing to do but it was the only was not to compare oranges to apples. On my part I am ending this discussion as we are really off-topic. But please feel free to continue.
IMO Grosso was fouled and it was a pk. What about the red card then? You couldnt even tell me what happened before Grosso got fouled by Lucas Neil. I bet you couldn't even remember his name, or Bresciano who GROSSO TURNED INSIDE MOMENTS BEFORE HE DID AGAINST NEIL YOU BIASED TWAT!!!!! BTW, I was born in Australia. So dont give me this one eyed Italy shyte. What about your goal against us in the euros? Ok by law its ok, but everyone knows that was bogus Panucci was off the pitch.Give Italy a one goal lead like that and we'll see who wins.
What a perfect response. First of all you show everybody the lack of style you have by calling me a biased twat. I should report you in for that and don't think I won't next time. I give you one free pass So you think Holland was given a easy ride in the Euro game against Italy with the first goal but the penalty from Italy was deserved. That is an opinion, and you are entitled to that. You don't have to go overboard because of it. Can I ask you how you judge v Nistelrooy in minute 17:07 of that game with Buffon coming out his goal? On general I have read some angry Italiens about that Euro loss, and "you see you are not that good" responses after the Russia game, but have not heard a word of sportmanship for winning against Romania. In that game we lost our best player Robben who was vital for our chances in winning the Euro. We didn't go easy on the Romanians, didn't lose it, even won it and because of that Italy went trough.
lol dude reporting ppl is g@y. Yes I did go overboard and you are a fair guy. You listed Italy got hard done by aswell i Korea. Yes was very good sportsmanship in beating Romania and yes RVN deserved a pk I still think it was a pk vs Australia and also was a red by Materazzi. Many ppl dont mention the red card which changed the game. IMO it cant be one and not the other thats being biased. If the red didnt happen imo Italy who were on top { despite having less possession even 11 vs 11 } would have gone onto win as they were creating plenty of chances. If Italy lost I dont think ppl { especially aussies } would have said it wasn't fair.
Don't know if to be called fair by a guy that has problems with gay people is something to be proud of, but let we keep it on the fact you have your own way to express yourself. What you can see IMO with RVN is that he wasn't even busy or aware of a pk opportunity (the ideal, the thing we want to achieve in fair play). The evasion of RVN towards Buffon was far more difficult than the opportunity of evasion from Grosso towards Neil. Buffon had far more speed than the just lying down of Neil. I'm proud RVN didn't go down and to be hounest I wasn't even happy with the first goal. We are going to disagree on the penalty Australia-Italy. It is a situation that just doesn't resonate with me. Every time I look at it in youtube, something is not right about it, but it is an old discussion, so let's move on.[/QUOTE]