Hypothetical, need a ruling

Discussion in 'Referee' started by sam_gordon, Sep 7, 2023.

  1. sam_gordon

    sam_gordon Member+

    Feb 27, 2017
    I have not seen this in a game. I'm just curious what the ruling would be, if any...

    We've all seen where a through ball gets to the keeper, they keep it at their feet until opponent is 5 yards (or less) away and then picks it up.

    What would happen if, instead of picking it up, they decide to fall on it? Yes, a delaying tactic. But no different than a keeper making a routine save and then falling on the ball to kill a couple of seconds.

    I don't think there's anything that could be called unless they stay on the ball for an inordinate amount of time. Am I wrong?
     
  2. USSF REF

    USSF REF Guest

    Nothing... until an opponent is close enough to kick it, then it's playing in a dangerous manner.
     
  3. sam_gordon

    sam_gordon Member+

    Feb 27, 2017
    "Playing in a dangerous manner" against the GK?
     
  4. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    It can’t be PIADM as the opponent cannot play the ball when held by the keeper.
     
    Sport Billy repped this.
  5. USSF REF

    USSF REF Guest

    Maybe I mis read but I thought the premise was the GK did not use their hands/arms to possess the ball, instead just lie on top of it as a means to waste time without starting the six second count.
     
  6. USSF REF

    USSF REF Guest

    So if the premise implied that the GK uses their hands/arms when falling on the ball to possess it, then no, you can only enforce the six-second limit. If the premise implies that they do not possess it with the hands/arms deliberately to avoid six seconds then the playing in a dangerous manner can apply assuming the GK prevents the opponent from otherwise fairly playing the ball.

    After the replies I got, I guess it isn't clear what exactly is happening in this situation.
     
  7. sam_gordon

    sam_gordon Member+

    Feb 27, 2017
    Maybe I'm not explaining myself well...

    We've all seen GK hold the ball at their feet to waste time until an opponent pressures them and then they pick it up.

    We've all seen GK fall on the ball on a routine save when they really don't need to in order to waste time.

    What I'm asking about is definitely a time wasting move. So, through ball and the GK holds the ball at their feet. An opponent applies pressure, but instead of picking the ball up (as in the first situation above), the GK falls on it (as in the second situation). Is there anything against the rules in that?
     
  8. USSF REF

    USSF REF Guest

    When they fall on it, are they collecting it with their arms?

    I think it's also important to note a distinction between time wasting and using time.

    It is of course legal for the goalkeeper to stand there when the ball is in play with the ball at their feet as they are not being pressured to play. I think if this as using the time.

    Otoh, if they were to stand around delaying a goal kick excessively, as the ball is our of play, I think if this as time wasting which is an illegal act.

    Now, in the situation presented, the GK will be able to legally use some time, so simply waiting with the ball and then falling on it and possessing it in their hands would be fine but it would start the six second count (Technically). If they didn't use their arms, there is no law against lying on the ball provided no opponent is near enough to play the ball and since it's in play that would just be using time.
     
  9. Soccer Dad & Ref

    Oct 19, 2017
    San Diego
    Is the GK grabbing it with their hands and falling on it like we see them do? Or is the keeper falling on it with their belly or other part to keep it under their body and not allow a player to kick it, while also hoping to delay the game? If the first one, the 6 seconds needs to start once they have control (of course, the referee needs to manage this 6 seconds). If the second instance, I think others are saying it would be PIADM if an opponent wants to play it. Since the keeper is not using their hands, they are are treated just like any other player on the field in this instance
     
  10. sam_gordon

    sam_gordon Member+

    Feb 27, 2017
    I appreciate the responses. I don't have a good answer for whether the ball is in their hands or just under the body. It's purely a hypothetical. I was just wondering if it's a way to "use" more time... wait for the opponent to pressure, then fall on the ball, and lay on the ground for a couple of extra seconds.
     
  11. USSF REF

    USSF REF Guest

    If they fall on it and grab the ball with the hands/arms, then in theory they can have six more seconds... plus any time beyond that the referee ends up tolerating before stopping the game for a six-second violation.

    If they don't use their arms (would be dumb not to) then they could lie on it until an opponent approached and they could not fairly play it because of the GK lying on the ball.
     
    sam_gordon and AlextheRef repped this.
  12. Dayton Ref

    Dayton Ref Member+

    May 3, 2012
    Houston, TX
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    A few years ago I was referee for a game where the keeper did it as a tactic to laydown on the ball so they didn't use their hands and control the ball. The ball would be coming slow enough for them to play it with their feet easily, they'd lay down on the ball, opponent would retreat, they'd hang out until pressured, then pick up the ball. The third time, about the time I knew I needed to do something about it, the keeper used his forearms to corral the ball because there was a lot of traffic (I'm surprised he didn't get kicked). When he stood up, without the ball in his hands, I announced, "No hands! No hands! No hands!" When the keeper still picked it up, I called the infraction, explained it to his coach, and proceeded with the IFK inside the PA. The coach made sure it didn't happen again.

    My management strategy going forward would be to talk with the keeper when the ball is in their hands, "Listen, if an attacker goes for that ball hard, they'll be out a week with a red card, but if your hand is broken, you'll be out a lot longer than that."
     
    dadman and Law5 repped this.
  13. sam_gordon

    sam_gordon Member+

    Feb 27, 2017
    Again, I appreciate the answers, but it brings up another question... when is the six second count SUPPOSED to start?

    Going back to a "standard" scenario... high ball into the box... GK jumps up, catches the ball in both hands, then drops and falls onto the ground. Waits a couple of seconds, then stands up, walks up to the top of the box, and then puts it back into play. If it's a question of "controlling" the ball, the GK did that when they caught it.
     
  14. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    Seems we’ve already gone quite a bit down the rabbit hole on this. Since we don’t call 6 seconds, we’re getting farther and farther down. Let’s get back to the real world. Keeper falls on the ball like that, “keeper, let’s go.” Loudly and clearly. And either have a word with the keeper or the captain and tell him if the nonsense repeats, he can expect the 6 seconds to be tightly enforced, and the count will start when he falls unnecessarily on the ball.
     
    IASocFan and Gary V repped this.
  15. USSF REF

    USSF REF Guest

    I usually count from the point I think the GK has regained control of their body and is able to play. But, if I think they are stalling on the ground (or certainly deliberately falling to the floor to take that benefit, I just start my internal count.)

    Mostly, this is not called, but about 6-7 seconds I yell to the GK to start moving.
    I give another warning about 10 seconds, and then I read the situation between calling it at 12 -14 sec.

    I rarely have to call it, but I rarely get a keeper pushing beyond my second verbal warning either.

    Had GK the other day falling on every ball in the last 10 mins. I had to make a point of telling him to stop doing that or I would become rather strict with the 6 seconds. That worked (this time...).
     
    IASocFan, dadman, StarTime and 2 others repped this.

Share This Page