Slash ED. It sounds like you, like so many Irish fans I met, wanted us to lose early at the Cup. I saw tons of Irish fans with their faces painted in Korean colors before the game in Daegu. Sorry to diappoint you by going farther than you did. Spain got screwed. Italy got screwed by Moreno and others. The US had bad refs 4 out of 5 games at the Cup, especially the Korea game. My opinions. John O'Brien said on TV that his hand hit the ball inside the penalty area. He said the Mexican player pushed his elbow up and caused it. That of course would not be a PK if the other side caused it. I was too far away to see it and the replay does not show the arm activity. I assume you were cheering for Germany too. Congratulations. You get by with a little help from your friends.
Why would an Irishman want America to go out early? Talk about paranoid, why not try and argue with the points I made? And if O'Brien decided that what he did wasn't a pen, that we all just take his point for granted?
one last thing b4 I drink myself into a stupor, I have held as my own belief that the refs missed the JOB and German handball since the 1st time I saw the replays. The beautiful thing about sport, is the human element. NO game will ever be "perfect" and for the sake of keeping my interest, I hope it never does.
Bottom line, the JOB no call was as much a PK as the Germany one, so either both we're PKs or neither we're PKs, in the end justice was done. It happens in football.
SlashEd. We had a few discussions on the Ireland board prior to your arrival at Big Soccer. I was surprised at how many Irish people, or people of Irish ancestry, rooted against the USMNT. Pmanion was one of these guys that I had discussions with. On top of that I saw the Irish fans in Korean face paint in Daegu. Many Irish were probably for the US against Korea. I didn't see any in Daegu. Pmannion, an ascerbic but good poster on the Irish board, said he thought that more than 50 per cent of Irish nationals would root for Iran against the U.S. I think this is an exaggeration. But it opened my eyes.
The non-call is very defensible and IMHO, 100% correct. It's only at odds with general practice, because so many referees get the call wrong time and time again. The non-call on JOB was correct too. JOB had his arm extended and it was pushed up by the Mexican defender. No intent. Beckenbauer, like Pele, talks out of his arse half the time. He doesn't know the laws of the game, and it's embarrassing for such a highly respected player. Whether Dallas saw it or not, I've no idea. No way was the ball over the line, as you say. We didn't get screwed, not by a longshot. We just plain got beat. Many people have strong opinions on this subject without understanding the rules.
About the face paint thing, do you not think it was more to do with them being pro Korea anyway? Why would they pay to goto a match to root against a team that has done nothing to them in their entire history? Even the country has done little to nothing anti Irish in their history. Pmannion was obviously mugged in America or something but the honest truth is most Irish people either cheered for America for having family ties there (Like I do) or treated them like they would Mexico, didn't really care either way, which would be the majoritys view. Those anti America are like any anti American person you would find anywhere in any country.
Freakin' A! Why tarnish a glorious run to the Quarter-finals by bitching about refereeing? The players didn’t make this issue, so why should we. There are no conspiracies… there were no vendettas. It just one bad call in tournament filled with them. Hup USA in 2006!
Re: Freakin' A! I agree, but it is hard to think what might have been.... We could have beat Korea. We could have beat Brazil.
Well, Dallas is considered a shill for Rangers so its obvious that he would want to screw over any team that had a former Ranger who left because he wanted to leave Ibrox, and a team with a guy named Pope. (Thanks to the Guardian for the last one) We have a motive, at least.
Hey everyone - first post. I have the video of the handball on my computer, and after having watched it - it's pretty apparent that the entire ball did not cross the line. Every replay angle supports this. Fringe's hand did not move towards the ball, but was away from his body. I'm unsure what that means according the rulebook - but I think it would mean a penalty shot. The hand of JOB would also mean a penalty shot, by the way. Regardless of whether or not it's counterbalanced by the amount of non-calls on Mexican players, it still should have been a penalty kick. Regardless of that, I'd still like our chances in that game. Bottom line, they both should have been penalty kicks, in my opinion. One helped us, one hurt. Unfortunately, I don't think we needed the help in the U.S - Mexico game, and we did need the call in the U.S - Germany game. It's a tough break, but just some of the many bad calls of WC2002. Here's hoping that Germany 2006 will be better(in that respect at least.) Oh, one more thing : Well, we could have beaten Korea... =)
To Mario Kempes. World Soccer Magazine this month has an article about the outrageous refs in the Cup, and shows one photo while discussing the whole sordid affair. It is the handball and it is from a perfect angle. If you don't call that the whole game is tainted. I am amazed that you defend this call. I think Beckenbauer, Pele and Platini understand the rules. The damage control by FIFA was extraordinary. Blatter ordered that good refs be appointed for the smis. A little late in the game ater people all over the wolrd watched the Korea and Germany quarterfinals. Our players did not complain in part because they can't. Keep in mind that the U.S., unlike any other team in the World Cup, carries 3 suspensions out of the Cup, in our case to the first game of the Confederations Cup. FIFA has a double standard when it comes to dissent too. Oliver Kahn told reporters before the Korea game that he expected to be fighting the refs too. He was not suspended. The Barbados coach told the press after the Foxboro qualifier that the game was rigged. No suspension of course. Coach Arena and Reyna were suspended after Peter Prendergast's shameful calls in Costa Rica for 3 games each. Arena criticized Prendergast to the press and Reyna charged Prendergast and made him back up 5 or 6 feet. Keep in mind 5 Catrachos charged Navaro in DC, and chased him halfway across the field. None of them were suspended. Quite simply, it appears that FIFA has two sets of rules, one for the hated Americans, and one for everyone else. Too bad the one of the cleanest teams in the Cup, who didn't dive all over the field, carries the 3 suspensions out of the debacle. Insult to injury comes to mind. My opinions.
What are you on? FIFA's bias against the US?? The US is FIFA's long lost rich relative. They are desperate for football to take off in the US in a big way. After all that's part of the reason it went there in 1994, despite a none too exotic past WC performance and not even having a professional league. The revenues that could potentially be accrued from the TV rights from the US if football gets huge there, just makes FIFA's mouth drool. Again, smells a bit like typical US paranoia.
What this thread should be debating is the shameful penalty mr dallas gave to the huns to put them 2-1 in front if i remember rightly, peter lovenkrands only has to fall over within 10 feet of Shug and hes pointing to the spot, i heard it happened in the tunnel too
You must get a special edition. Mine has two photos, one of Spain and a larger one of the handball from behind, an angle that takes awa pretty much all depthe perception so it's impossible for the naked eye to tell where the ball is in relation to the line three feet below it. And they spend a whopping 44 words in the entire magazine talking about the call. No wringing of hands, no consporacy theories. All they say is Dallas (and another ref who called a similar play differently) should have to explain their decision. Nothing about how the call was wrong. Just that it was controversial. Just my opinions ... oops, I mean the facts. Nice early departure, eh counselor? I'd like to see the results of this poll. By the way, the sky in our world is blue. What color is it in yours? God help your clients if you think being behind the goal and in the stands is a "perfect view." I'm betting you've never officiated anything in your life, Thomas. Of course you won't respond to this because you'd be forced to actually use some factual evidence.
What exactly does the fact that good refs for the semis are appointed prove? I'm pretty sure that happens at EVERY world cup.
I'm sorry but I've never subscribed to the one mistake justifies another argument. We caught a break against Mexico, for sure. But how can that excuse Dallas? What most offended me was his lecturing, educator's attitude towards the Americans. And, while we're it at, the Port-sipping, sardine-eating tart who did the Mexico game needed a head-butt, as well. Yellow to Friedel? Yellow to Wolff for time wasting? No call against Mercado after he and his beautiful game buddy, arch-exponent of footy sophistication chopped and hacked Jones? There can be very little defending the clowns in the middle. We had a let off against the Aztec kick-ballers. But more often than not, we we're screwed. But, hey, we had a great campaign and I'm not going to let the biased, clueless officiating of some Eurotarts ruin my memories of it.
We do have the advantage of first hand experience, my curious friend. It's not FIFA that's anti-US, though. To that I will agree. But many men in the middle have decided to give us the old treatment through the years. Have you ever seen the tape of a little thing called the US-Guatemala WCQ played at RFK in November 1996? That was a real shining moment. You haven't lived until you've seen a 90 minute kungfu exhibition done to marimba music. How about a little thing called the US-Trinidad and Tobago game played that same month? You know. The game in which some Trinnie put Tab Ramos in the hospital and the ref stood there as if he were watching Forrest Gump or Titanic in the front row of a movie theatre? Did you catch that? Sheer poetry, that game was. Have you ever heard of a guy by the name of Peter Prendergast? A month and a half before he dropped four hits of windowpane and officiated the US-Costa Rica game (the Berhalter hand ball off the chest in the 91st minute?) he sat back and watched the Mexican Folkloric Ballet chop Claudio Reyna mercilessly in Giants Stadium. Did you happen to catch that? He did SWEET FA about it. Did you see Cobi Jones get sent off in Honduras? We still had them that night, though, didn't we? No foul was called on the real perp and we ended up with ten on the field down in Hondie. Have you ever heard of a guy by the name of Sherriff Castrilli? Oh, you have, huh? Do you remember the call that he made against Friedel during that WCQ in the Azteca for too many steps? That was the only time in my life that I've seen that called at the international level. And how on God's green earth was that PK called against Agoos in the Korea game? And the subsequent free kick? How could Beasley possibly have been yellow carded against Portugal? I'm still trying to figure that out. Why did Wolff get a yellow against Mexico? And then Friedel? The list goes on and on, pal. FIFA and USSF may be tight. And they should be. But that doesn't mean that individual refs haven't been biased against Uncle. Surf's up, dude.
This handball was discussed ad infinitum in another thread, but unfortunately it met its early death at the Big Soccer crash. Anyways... Let's go over the handball call once again. First, did the ball hit Frings hand? Yes, clearly. So it is a handball. Second, was the handball intentional? This is the heart of the matter. Any and all arguments about the call can only start with the following: "I think the handball was intentional because...." The usual criteria for determining intent is "hand to ball". Clearly from the video, the ball caromed off of Kahn and hit Frings hand. Frings had no time to react. He only pulled his hand back after the ball arrived. Clearly this was a case of "ball to hand". The only other criteria for intent, in this case, is unusual hand position. Frings was standing straight up with his arms at his sides. I would estimate they were about 6-8 inches from his sides, but I may be a little off one way or the other. I thought his arms were in rather a natural position. I would not have called the handball intentional. Now, I'm NOT saying someone who calls the handball intentional is wrong, because the call is rather subjective. However, any other argument besides "his hands were unusually far away from his sides" would not be valid. And I think they have to be pretty far away from his sides to make this type of judgement. The spirit of the game is that the benefit of doubt goes to the defender. Horizontal arms would clearly be unusual. 45 degress would be unusual. Anything less than that, and it is a grey area where common sense and subjectivity battle it out. As for Beckenbauer, he said that any handball on the goal line was an automatic PK. He is completely wrong. And Pele has said so many dumb things, I'm not going to bother listing them.
So true. Nice guy, it seems. But clueless. But as long as figures such as Pele are elevated to oracle and sage status, he'll keep talking crap. Mario, two questions: 1) Who does your hair? And... 2) Put Eddie Pope or Alexi Lalas in the position of the German defender. Let's say that Aldair or Dunga or Fernando Hierro or Paulo Maldini had taken the shot. Call the venue WC in France. Or a Copa America game in Bolivia or Paraguay or whatever. Would that have been called a PK?
Originally posted by Chowderhead Mario, two questions: 1) Who does your hair? And... A professional hair stylist. Would you expect anything less? 2) Put Eddie Pope or Alexi Lalas in the position of the German defender. Let's say that Aldair or Dunga or Fernando Hierro or Paulo Maldini had taken the shot. Call the venue WC in France. Or a Copa America game in Bolivia or Paraguay or whatever. Would that have been called a PK? Well, as I said this call gets made all the time for the wrong reasons at every level from peewee to the World Cup. The Italy-Chile match in 1998 is a good example. Baggio kicks the ball into a Chilean defender in the box and gets the PK. A masterful move by Baggio, but no way was the handball intentional. I could not speculate about what calls may or may not be made (well I could, but I would be talking out of my arse). Referees are human, crumple under pressure, and have their own biases. I can only tell you what the rules are and how calls should be made or at least what the arguments about said calls should be. The Pendergast gaffe was just that. The Dallas call was debatable, but certainly not ridiculous as some here thought. I'm not going to sit here and tell you that NO referees have biases or that ALL referees love the US, but I don't think there's any sort of grand conspiracy emanating from FIFA. Does Dallas hate the US team? I have no idea. I don't think he had too much of a fun time working MLS games. He was a bit card happy if I remember correctly. Hard to get inside a man's mind. I'm sure a pint of whiskey and a plate of haggis makes the pain go away.
That wasn't Dallas. That was Stuart Dougal, i think his name is. Dallas made a bad call. But there is no worldwide outcry as Thomas alleges. But I'm kinda used to him ignoring facts and dragging his cross around. Just my opinions.