Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by NYC, Aug 22, 2002.
Whoa! What's with the hostility?
Ben, ignore him. Some people just insult rather than debate.
But for Hugh Dallas the U.S. may well have won the World Cup. Kahn let the tying goal in after being out of position for Donavon's shot, but played a fine game. He was lucky on Reyna's lob after again being out of position. It helped to have Hugh Dallas on his side.
If bad calls go both ways can you please point out what bad calls helped the U.S. in the World Cup? Other than the O'Brien handball (offset by Perreira's failure to give Blanco a red card on 2 occasions) the bad calls seemed to help the U.S. opponent. I think comments by Pele, Beckenbauer and Platini back me up, at least in part.
Just my opinions.
I’m not sure what comments you are referring too. If they said that Dallas should have awarded a PK then I concur, but he didn’t. Regardless, this was but one play in 90 minutes of football. We created plenty of other opportunities and if we had finished a few we would have won. Unfortunately, we didn’t. I don’t buy into your conspiracy theory, and I don’t believe there was any malicious intent in Dallas’ decision. The incident was hardly cut and dry, and he gave a perfectly rational defense of his judgement.
Maybe he can fool someone who joined in April, but this psychotic misogynistic liar isn't fooling me.
Ben...he said FIFA had rigged the draw and would rig the refs so that the US wouldn't get out of the first round. That of course didn't happen.
He is lying now. I would point out the obvious...if there was a FIFA conspiracy, JOB's handball would have been called.
BTW...it's not true that Germany "changed" the rule. They may have changed the interpretation, but it's always been the rule that accidental handballs aren't supposed to be punished. The word "deliberate" is in the LOTG.
As for the call...Frings had no chance to move his arm. Some would give a handball based on the notion that a player guarding the post isn't there to mark a player, he's supposed to pretty much just stand there. So if his arms are away from his body, the position of the arms makes it "deliberate." Some would be so strict as to call it deliberate just because his arms weren't behind him, and he was on the goalline.
I haven't rewatched the game yet, so I can't say whether or not his arms were out enough to consider it deliberate.
Man, I wish I could remember the specifics, but Dallas said something in his statement that was clearly a CYA move. Does anyone remember?
Bull. How many times have we seen replays on this goal? It was NOT over the line.
Let's pretend for a second that Thomas isn't a psychopathic liar. Just for the sake of argument, let's take this statement at face value.
What does this tell you? If he was 40 feet away, we know, for certain, that he was behind the goal, NOT LOOKING DOWN THE ENDLINE, and thus had a crap angle. How do I know this?
If the field was 75 yards wide, and the goal is 8 yards wide, then it's almost exactly 100 feet from the sideline to a goalpost.
So he was behind the goal. And only a fool would make a definitive statement about a borderline call like this from behind the goal.
Or a psychopathic liar.
See, Ben, that's why. And I'll bet you all of the tea in China that he doesn't address this post.
What is the exact rule in soccer. I only started playing around 13 years ago...
Is it the same as football, where as soon as ANY part of the ball breaks the plane of the goaline it is a touchdown?
If that is the case, it was a goal.
Or does the ball have to be halfway over, or all the way over?
just like me pointing out to him that he didn't actually read my post, but called me out on something I didn't really say.
He never responded.
The whole ball must be over...
I agree, over the long haul we got our share of breaks as well as bad calls.
My recollection is that Frings' hand was down, within a few (say 6-8) inches of his hip, and STILL when the ball squirted out from the tangle of guys at his feet and hit him. He did not react to the ball until after the contact: the ball played him. Based on the "deliberate" factor, I think the non-call is defensible given a strict reading of the Laws, even if it's at odds with general practice. And no way was the ball over the line.
In any case, I doubt that Dallas saw it (post facto CYA seems to me to be an accurate description of his statements to the contrary) and although I think he probably would have made a call had he seen the contact, what can you do, goat s**t is round. Move on guys.
"psychotic misogynistic liar!" I thought I was a paranoid lunatic. I have been promoted. As always, I do not insult people and will not respond to this TOS violation or any other.
When we had this discussion prior to the Cup I pointed out that efforts to rig games do not always work. Anyone who watched our WCQs closely can porably come up with a couple of games where the ref was an outrage beut we pulled out a win or a tie. It makes it harder.
If Dallas had blown this call and called a fair game I would think it was a mistake. The whole game was terrible. We (I use the term loosely) go into the Confeerations Cup with Mastroenni, Pope and Berhalter suspended, at least according to Skysports. Dallas's outrageous yellow cards over setting the wall, something which never results in a card, put us in that hole. He cut short stoppage time, gave Germany a BS call that resulted in a goal, and gave Germany many unfair free kicks. They needed the help with 2 shots on goal the whole game!
I was at the game. The U.S. section, with a perfect view, went wild the instant the ball was clearly over the line. We could clearly see Kahn grapple with it on the ground for an instant, well beyond the line, before he smuggled it forward. We did not jeer until it became clear Mr. Dallas had not called a goal. Then, the most angry, derisive jeer I have ever heard cascaded out of the stands.
On TV, it is less clear. Most people think it is either over or damn close. Some, mostly American "fans" insist that it is clearly not a goal.
Just my opinions.
superdave wins 'all the tea in china'
Tom, I think someone has beaten you to the punch:
One thing that is hard to dispute, whether or not you agree with Thomas, is that Dallas blew that call, and was generally piss-poor in that game. I have rewatched both this play and the game a few times, and here are my opinions. Take them for what you will:
1. By the letter of the law, if a player's arm is away from the body, which Fring's was, then it was a deliberate handball. That law was established so that referee's wouldn't have to judge intent, which would be rubbish. Refereeing soccer will never be black and white, but this is a good law in that it takes a value decision away from the ref who could play favorites. Dallas, in the case of the US, decided to ignore that law. He blew it, as Beck correctly stated after the game.
2. Dallas was overly card-happy, a reputation he has worked hard for over the years. In this game, he fell for dive after dive from the Germans, who received criticism even from their own press for their cowardly tactics. Far too many yellows were handed out to the US, and even if we had beaten Germany and advanced, many of our key players (I think including Mastroeni and Reyna) would have been ineligible for the semis. Germany's goal was set up by a German dive and the resulting free kick from Dallas' blown call.
3. WAY, WAY too much attention has been paid to JOB's non-call on the handball. It is if people assume Mexico would have scored if not for that handball, totally ignoring the fact that even IF (a very big IF) a Mexican had gotten a clean head on the ball, there is a stronger chance than not that this header would have resulted in a save from one of the WCs best goalies or even more probable, a shot off-target. If teams scored a goal every time they got a clear header on a corner, soccer scores would be more like 7-6 instead of 2-1. Even if JOB had been called for a penalty, assuming that Mexico would have converted that penalty is also bogus. And assuming that Mexico would have won if they had gotten that call AND converted the penalty is even more foolish.
There is no such law. Nor is there any IFAB ruling to this effect.
Thanks to Metrotard and Nutmeg for thoughtful posts. Good points on the JOB handball.
The German handball either prevented a goal or made it harder to see that one was scored. The Mexican player that JOB was defending had his back to the goal and his arms up too. It did not take away a scoring opportunity.
Perreira called a good game except for, perhaps, this call, and the failure to red card Blanco on two occasions. The US-Mexico game was the fairest game from an officiating standpoint. US-Korea was the worst, followed by Germany.
These are just my opinions and if people think that the ball was stopped by Kahn AND there was no handball that is their right to do so.
In the Mexico game the U.S. played much better than Mexico and won. In the Germany game the US also played much better but lost. If you talk about calls evening out please keep this in mind.
Superdave, when you do get around to watching it, pay special attention to the "offside" call against Donovan in minute 2 or 3. Watch the replay, over and over again.
(You may want to have a bottle of Pepto Bismol handy if you're susceptible to upset stomach.)
What a load of Bull, JOBs hand ball was clear the the only two excuses I've heard are.....
"It was unintentional" if you can call THAT unintentional thent he German one was a definitely no call.
"It didn't prevent a goal" Was unaware of this new Fifa regulation, maybe I should consult the make it up as you go along book of arguments and regulations?
Did you not see the Italian matches? The refereeing and espically the linesmen we're rubbish throughout the entire tournament. I find the bitterness from most people here pretty funny actually.
Very well put, and exactly why it's so upsetting. It's one of those gray areas that refs face (as Nutmeg pointed out), but it makes you wonder if the US would have benefitted from a non-call had if it been Pope or Mastoeni's hand in back of Friedel. Of course not, it would have been either a penalty or a goal every time.
While I don't want to get involved in the personal nature of some of the posts, in general I agree with one of your points, Thomas. I'm amazed at what seems to be the low self-esteem among US fans who are so quick to defend Mr. Dallas' non-call — especially in light of the phantom foul on Lewis that set up the game's only official goal, and in light of Beckenbauer's critique.
In my heart, in my head, that's a handball.
In general practice... that's a handball.
I'll buy someone's contention that it's not a handball, only if the statement is qualified thusly: "An argument can be made that's it's not a handball." Yeah, an argument can be made. But it would be a weak argument.
What in the world does that have to do with this topic?
Because the refs were terrible in the Italy matches, I'm supposed to be less upset that the US got jobbed?
What's your point? Is bitterness from Italian fans and Irish fans more worthy than bitterness from US fans? Sorry Slash, that makes no sense.
My point was people going on about vendettas against team USA and then bringing up stuff like stupid offside decisions that hey, it wasn't only America that had to put up with that.
I guess you have point.
However that doesn't take away my constitutionally-guaranteed right to be bitter!
I'm glad you posted that. That, to me, was the biggest blown call of the game and NO ONE mentioned it on the telecast, or really on here afterwards.
Donovan was kept onside by TWO German defenders and had a clear breakaway. I was livid when I was watching the game.
I think Frings' play should have been a PK, but it was not a 100% clearcut situation. Most referees would have called it a PK had they seen it. I think Dallas lied - he missed the play, and then claimed he saw it.
Re: Yesterday's Whine
I can't move on because much like OJ, it keeps resurfacing it's head to remind me how injust things are. Literally, last night I was minding my own business jogging around the park and it hit me again. We were better than Germany that day and deserved to win. If the call had been made, the score would've been 1 all w/ lots of time remaining to go ahead. We then would have been pitted against a team, albeit we wouldv'e been missing a lot of players from cards and injuries, that we had outplayed in the last 2 match ups. If we had just kept the level of play constant, we would've been in the Finals. I will not let that no-showering, penny pinching, haggish eating buffoon drive me mad. Noooooooooo!
Keep telling yourself this in the mirror, Stuart, it won't work. Here's my affirmation, no justice. No peace.