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Discussion in 'Referee' started by andymoss, Apr 8, 2009.
Sent Pep Guardiola off. Barca coach in case you didn't know.
And they're up 3-0??? What happened?
Nevermind - I found it in the chat - Webb denied Messi a PK and booked him for simulation. Coach "angrily disputed" the call.
Does anyone have a link to that? I love watching howard Webb
Ref denied what could be a PK and possible DOGSO, and adding insult to the injury in the opinion of the coach, cautioned Messi for diving. Then Guardiola teased the 4th and got sent off, then at the press conference he apologized for his behavior. I think that he purposefully traded his own sending off to put pressure on the ref - signalling that even with 2-0 he wanted him to call it tight.
To add to the comedy Marquez needed a caution to get clean of the risk of missing future games and spent half a minute not taking a kick in the 90th minute.
The sequence of clips is here, starting at 1:48, but you don't see the actual dismissal--just Guardiola's remonstration with Atkinson: http://www.veoh.com/search/videos/q/barcelona#watch=v1818335593XFg6sp
I've got zero problem with his dismissal, based purely on the visual.
As for the penalty decision, I'm not so sure. Definitely not a DOGSO, no matter you decide for the foul. Looks like a real 50/50 judgment call to me. I've watched it about 10 times already... the Munich defender definitely leaves his leg out to start, but Messi is also certainly looking to go down easily. This probably highlights, more than anything, the importance of a referee in our sport--that call could a been a penalty or a booking for the attacker and I don't think either call would be "wrong."
Another video, with another angle of the play (that Webb could never have seen) here at 1:50: http://www.veoh.com/search/videos/q/barcelona#watch=v18183312tP37Ygn5
Maybe 60/40 foul now?
Still, no excuse for Guardiola, who also apparently went at the AR.
In the many times I looked at both clips, I'd probably say closer to 80/20 against a foul. I see a very small grab on the arm from the Bayern defender, but nothing that a skilled attacker at that level shouldn't be able to play through. I just didn't think there was enough contact there to cause the fall Messi took.
That said, I agree with MassRef that given the location and angle of the play there was little or no chance of the CR seeing the true happenings of the play. But I think it's worth saying that it should highlight the importance of the ARs staying very focused as the AR was the only one who had good view of what happened.
To be fair, I don't think the AR would have had a good angle, either. His line of vision would be entirely perpendicular to the situation.
If anything, a play like this probably highlights one of the reasons replay has no place in soccer: you can look at this 20 times from 5 different angles and reasonable people will still disagree whether it was a foul or a dive.
Watched both clips many times and it seems to me Messi is doing his best imitation of a wind up Sonny Liston doll. Beautiful dive. In the first clip he goes down again at around the 3:30 mark but the referee gives advantage signal and a goal is scored. Not sure that wasn't a dive too. Coach is out of control. MLB needs him!
Very tough call. It looks to me on one of the angles like the Bayern defender pulls his leg back before Messi arrives, and I believe that is the angle Webb had as well. On other angles though it looks like contact does occur, and if there is contact I don't think it is a dive - Messi doesn't really seem to embellish the contact, and I disgaree he could have avoided it. With the view Webb had, I think a YC is the right decision. And it seems pretty obvious the Barca coach is going too far.
This game is being rebroadcast on ESPN classic today at 5 PM if anyone has the chance to catch it. Even better, if someone has the technology and wants to record and upload the relevent segments, that'd be great.
That's 5 PM EDT. It's 4PM CDT. Thanks for the heads up. Please post time zones when you post times!
Good point, should've done so.
Definitely a PK. Are you guys not aware that brushing up against another person can cause temporary double leg paralysis in soccer players. Its well documented.
Not to mention back and arm spasms.
This was a dive and a great call. 80/20 there was *no* contact between the defender's leg and the attacker. On the 20% chance there was any contact, it was minimal and did not cause the "fall".
The attacker felt/saw the leg and took a classic dive. He even looked like he was going in off the blocks! Too bad for him the defender had pulled his leg back, so when he dove it wasn't over a leg, but over thin air.
How the coach thinks he had the best view from 70 yards away baffles me. Rather than him sending a message he wanted the game called tightly, maybe he'll receive a message that he needs to coach, not get in the 4th's face.
To be fair, as we've seen often at this level, I'm sure the coach saw the video feed near the fourth's table. Nonetheless, doesn't excuse the behavior one bit.
You're right as usual, thanks.
So what video exactly do you have where this doesn't look like a foul?
Once again, what video is showing you this? Every one I've seen it looks like a clear penalty going by the rulebook. Messi cut it back across the defender who was too slow to hit the ball but quick enough to hit Messi. Seems pretty clear cut especially when we're dealing with a player who is known for not diving.
Tell that to all of the managers at the big clubs. Pep is actually extremely reserved in comparison to the likes of Ferguson, Mourinho, etc. As we can see he had a reason to be upset.
I agree that I think it is not nearly that easy a call. The one view that I think shows it as not a foul is the second view on the first clip linked. That would also have been the view Webb had, and if I'd had that view I'd have gone YC 98% of the time.
Was it a foul? Was it not a foul?
The only view and angle is in full speed and from Howard's exact vantage point. That's what he saw and that's what he called.
Again, I'm getting really sick and tired of slow-mo, multi-angle dissections of decisions and studio muppets criticising referees when they see an incident eleventeen times from angles that the referee is never privvy to. Same with bench monitors. Get rid of them. That's why jumbotrons cut off replays of fouls and no-calls a lot of the time.
I'd also offer that, IMHO, Messi was looking for the contact, that had the leg remained would, have been there, but as the leg was being withdrawn, was minimal at best and certainly something he could have and should have played through.
Howard got it right.
Was there any call on the first play shown (sliding player's cleat to 'keeper's face)?
I've only seen the replays, but I was reading a discussion about Webb's performance on another board and apparently he did give a free kick for the incident. That led someone to question why there wasn't a red card, because the foul endangered the safety of the opponent. That assertion was dismissed pretty quickly and, based on the limited replay, I've got to agree with that sentiment. From the looks of the replay, it seemed like a complete accident and Henry was trying to make the inevitable collision as innocuous as possible after he hit the ground and he got unlucky to get his feet up near the keeper's face. This wasn't the case of a dangerous play (like a high boot) that leads to SFP (think Van Persie from a couple years ago). Reaching for a yellow here is completely illogical--it's got to be nothing or a red card, and a red card just isn't justice.
As for the penalty/no-penalty decision, all I can do at this point is laugh. On the other board, the English refs seem to be 100% certain that Webb botched the call. Here, people seem to think he did very well to book Messi. I readily admit I still don't know what the "right" call was. I'll say again: this is the poster child for why video replay has no place in soccer. It's three days later and good referees either disagree or have no definitive opinion on whether or not it was a foul.