How to Rebuild Conmebol

Discussion in 'CONMEBOL' started by flaviense, Jul 7, 2018.

  1. flaviense

    flaviense Red Card

    GD Chaves
    Portugal
    Mar 4, 2018
    Toronto
    Nat'l Team:
    Portugal
    Hello Guys,

    unfortunately, Conmebol teams have failed yet again at the FIFA world cup.
    this will be the fourth consecutive world cup with an european winner.

    I am saddened, as I much enjoy World Cup/international games involving Conmebol teams.

    What ideas do you have for improving the performance of Conmebol in World Cup play?
    will 2022 again go to UEFA? or will it return to Conmebol...

    thoughts?
     
  2. NaBUru38

    NaBUru38 Member+

    Mar 8, 2016
    Las Canteras, Uruguay
    Club:
    Club Nacional de Football
    The struggles in Argentinian football are cultural. The players, the executives, the journalists and the fans can't stand defeat. Even the previous finals appearances were seen as a defeat.
     
  3. omajac

    omajac Member+

    Feb 9, 2002
    East Orange, New Jersey, USA
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    I think we play way too many WCQ games!! Even though it's fair and mainly for the TV money, 18 games is way too much!! I think we should make the Copa America as the WCQ's as well!! The 4 teams that make it to the semifinals qualify for the WC and the best 'loser' of the quarterfinals go to the playoffs vs the best 'loser' of the CONCACAF Gold Cup!!
     
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  4. kromekote

    kromekote Member+

    May 22, 2012
    Club:
    America de Cali
    18 games is a lot and more so when you consider the club calendar and the fact that many of the players play outside of their country. But using your logic if you look at the last 2 Copas - Copa Centerario 2016 and Copa America 2015, would have meant the following scenarios:
    2015 - top 4 - Chile, Argentina, Paraguay and Peru, 2016 - top 4 - Chile, Argentina, Colombia , Peru Note: No Uruguay no Brazil. How would this help Conmebol exactly?

    Further, this is a 10 member confederation. So you would have to go to a similar format, pre 1993, where you had 2 split groups of 5, out of which the top 2 from each group, moved on to final stage of 4. Basically, you would be asking 6 conmebol nations to forfeit their ticket to the world cup after only having played 4 games. I dont think this is the best solution nor would it be a way to 'rebuild' Conmebol as you're assuming that the last 4 of a Copa America tournament are your best 4 that should represent in a world cup a few years later. More than likely I do see Conmebol following the tail of Uefa and coming up with a nations cup of some sorts, possibly with some type of merge or interplay with Concacaf.
     
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  5. NaBUru38

    NaBUru38 Member+

    Mar 8, 2016
    Las Canteras, Uruguay
    Club:
    Club Nacional de Football
    I'm a huge fan of the current format. 18 matches over 24 months is perfectly reasonable.
     
  6. kromekote

    kromekote Member+

    May 22, 2012
    Club:
    America de Cali
    it's not just this 18 game schedule that they have to adjust for over 2 years. Let's take game day/FIFA week. Usually players have about a 10-12 day window to fly from some other country, meet with their team, adjust to a new time zone, practice then play your 1st match IF AT Home (otherwise back on a plane you go) only to play 4 days later sometimes after traveling over 3,000 miles.

    Add to it the extremes: climate, altitude and obviously the importance of stamping your ticket to the WC. But for the professional player who still has to show up for club and compete with his Euro counterpart (who hasnt had the need for these adjustments) but who's calendar continues to be plugged with a ton of commitments (league, league cups/tournaments, international club competitions, intl club and NT friendlies, Copa Americas, Confederations Cup, etc), than that calendar becomes difficult and eventually something has to give.

    As a NT supporter, of course, nothing is better than our qualifiers but all I'm saying is that it's a taxing format that needs to be updated in some way as ultimately you still want to see the best out on the field with proper circumstances.
     
  7. NaBUru38

    NaBUru38 Member+

    Mar 8, 2016
    Las Canteras, Uruguay
    Club:
    Club Nacional de Football
    FIFA had been discussing to combine the September, October and November windows into two windows with three matches each. Having four windows would be perfect.
     
  8. condor11

    condor11 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 2, 2002
    New Zealand
    exactly...sadly this will probably be the last time we have the 18 match system

    with the wc expansion (ridiculous decision) starting in 2026...there is no point playing 18 games to have 7 teams qualify
     
  9. jagum

    jagum Member

    CF Montreal
    Venezuela
    Jun 20, 2007
    Panama City, Panama
    Club:
    Montreal Impact
    Nat'l Team:
    Venezuela
    And then what format would be the best ?
    7 countries from 10 of Conmebol to the WC ? a merge with Concacaf ?
     
  10. condor11

    condor11 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 2, 2002
    New Zealand
    they will probably go back to 3 groups or simply have two groups of 5.
     
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  11. railita

    railita Red Card

    Aug 1, 2019
    I am saddened, as I much enjoy World Cup/international games involving Conmebol teams.
     
  12. railita

    railita Red Card

    Aug 1, 2019
    The struggles in Argentinian football are cultural. The players, the executives, the journalists and the fans can't stand defeat. Even the previous finals appearances were seen as a defeat.
     
  13. Toguchi

    Toguchi Member

    Atlético Mineiro
    Brazil
    Dec 1, 2019
    Belo Horizonte
    I miss the Intercontinental Cup. I remember Boca winning Real Madrid in 2000 and Milan in 2003. Good years for South American football.
     
  14. pecuniary

    pecuniary New Member

    Arsenal
    Germany
    Feb 10, 2020
    Lewiston, Washington(WA), 83501
    I think we should make the Copa America as the WCQ's as well!! The 4 teams that make it to the semifinals qualify for the WC and the best 'loser' of the quarterfinals
     
  15. AlphonsoDavies14

    AlphonsoDavies14 New Member

    Real Madrid
    Colombia
    Mar 24, 2021
    I actually wrote about this a while ago. "Basically, the current format which CONMEBOL uses is probably the most effective - even though it's not perfect. It is perhaps the most fair between all ten teams and thus, most favored by the players, all fans and critics. Going forwards, CONMEBOL will surely see change as a good thing and only time will tell if change is needed for the CONMEBOL WC qualifiers."

    CONMEBOL World Cup Qualifiers – Is There A Better Format?
     
  16. Hexa

    Hexa Member+

    May 21, 2010
    Club:
    Vasco da Gama Rio Janeiro
    I think it is funny no one is talking about C'BOL playing NL with UEFA. I thing this could be the ticket for development and growth for all C'BOL team. We should be this up as soon as possible.
     
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  17. brasileiragem

    brasileiragem Member

    Real Madrid
    Brazil
    May 21, 2018
    100% agree that this will be a great change. When was the last time our Conmebol national teams played against an European side?
     
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  18. Hexa

    Hexa Member+

    May 21, 2010
    Club:
    Vasco da Gama Rio Janeiro
    I don't see many advantage on a hypothetical C'BOL - C'CAF merger. No futebol gain for the top 3 C'BOL teams at all and limited gain for the rest. Only upside is monetary, which is not a valid reason, IMHO.

    I liked Mexican teams participation in the Libertadores.

    But C'BOL - UEFA NL tics all the boxes; it is great for sporting and monetary reason. Every single team in C'BOL gains. There will be challenging marches for everyone. Cannot way for this to be a thing.

    Maybe we let Mexico in on C'BOL for club competition. Hard to think Mexico wouldn't pursue that - particularly with more WC spots on a 48 team WC.
     
  19. LordofBrewtown

    Wigan Athletic
    United States
    Nov 19, 2018
    Regarding the proposed C'BOl-UEFA combined Nations League - it might sound great; be good for the fans; but, I hope the CONMEBOL nations are considering some possible long term negatives. Specifically, it's been mentioned that UEFA would want to avoid travel/have all matches in Europe. Even if 'home' matches for CONMEBOL nations are on 'neutral' fields - this puts CONMEBOL at a disadvantage. Home field matters. Over the course of a couple cycles, CONMEBOL teams will achieve lesser results than they otherwise would have, which in turn will lead to lower FIFA rankings for CONMEBOL and higher rankings for UEFA nations. If that occurs (and it's likely it would), the UEFA National are politically savvy enough to use those changes to lobby hard for more places for them in the World Cup, and less for CONMEBOL in the future.

    I think any perceived benefit from the 'tougher' competition is offset by this very possible future situation.

    Now, if CONMEBOL can retain true home matches - then it makes sense.
     
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  20. Gilbertsson

    Gilbertsson Member+

    Barcelona
    Spain
    Apr 1, 2012
    Geneva
    Club:
    Toronto Croatia
    Nat'l Team:
    Switzerland
    CONMEBOL must remove their corrupted figures. Since we won't see that movie, we can't discuss about any type of recovery.:)
    Even with corruption, frauds, malversations, CONMEBOL offers attractive football.
    Compared with UEFA qualifications for Qatar 2022, CONMEBOL seems far more attractive. The last stages of Champions League are full of CONMEBOL players.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_UEFA_Champions_League_Final

    Out of 22 starters, 8 were CONMEBOL players. I included Thiago Alcantara there. Mazinho Junior.:D

    Among substitutes, 3 were CONMEBOL. So, 11.:rolleyes:

    UEFA must be worried a lot. Large number of players who have origins in CONCACAF, CONMEBOL, African Federations who play under the UEFA flags.

    CONMEBOL could improve in coaching, scouting, organisation, infrastructure, reduction of crime, shady managers, detection of money origins in football.:D
     
  21. Hexa

    Hexa Member+

    May 21, 2010
    Club:
    Vasco da Gama Rio Janeiro
    I couldn't disagree with this more. The benefits of access to strong and recurrent competition for all C'BOL members far outweighs any possible long term negatives.

    First, there is the WC expansion, so all federations well send more not less teams to the WC.

    Second, while NL represents organized recurrent matches they are, nevertheless, friendlies as far as FIFA ranking is concerned. So their result to FIFA ranking will be minimal. WC games, Copa America, and WC qualifiers will still have more weight than NL games so I don't see a significant change in ranking due to NL results.

    Third, most significantly, The most significant aspect of C'BOL teams participating in the NL is development and improvement for all teams. So I expect better WC results against the rest of the world and even UEFA teams. I believe WC results will more than offset any losing bias in a Euro based NL.

    I really don't think "neutral matches" will be a problem. Brazil playing in Portugal will be a home game unless playing against Portugal. Same thing for Spanish speaking C'BOL's teams. Chile vs Norway (league B) in Spain won't be a neutral ground for Norway.
     
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  22. Hexa

    Hexa Member+

    May 21, 2010
    Club:
    Vasco da Gama Rio Janeiro
    Even tough you have Japan and Spain as national teams (two teams?!!!), Geneva as your home and Barça as your club. I guess you do have a South American/Brazilian soul and culture.

    "CONMEBOL could improve in coaching, scouting, organisation, infrastructure, reduction of crime, shady managers, detection of money origins in football."

    You should add world peace and end world hunger while you are at it :rolleyes::laugh::laugh:.

    Most of items in your to do list ins't part of C'BOL or any other confederation job competences. C'BOL main function is to organize, regulate, and sanction regional football games. In addition, they do work to develop regional game through 25 (9 clubs) regional competitions.

    While some efforts on coaching could be done it isn't C'BOL job to improve coaching, scouting or national organization infrastructure. Nevertheless, through the 25 regional competition I do believe C'BOL actively help with game organization and infrastructure to a degree. Also the significant increase in club competition prize money does help to improve coaching and player development. Regional club competition does serves as scouting opportunities as well.

    C'BOL do not have jurisdiction or policing powers to reduce crime, shady managers or "detection of money origins" at a country level.

    C'BOL region still produces and develops world class talent, the problem is money at the club level.

    While Libertadores increased significantly its prize money. Most of the club money should come from national leagues. The recent success of Brazilian teams in Libertadores is due to a significant increase in money (local tv rights + sponsor deals) in locals competition.

    FYI Palmeiras 2021 soccer competition prize money revenue was R$ 283,856,000 (Libertadores represented R$ 194,976,000 of that total or 68%) but the total revenue for the soccer department was R$ 369.604.000. Libertadores represented 53% of total revenue. It is up to CBF and the Brazilian economy to increase non-libertadores revenue.

    https://www.uol.com.br/esporte/fute...as-em-2021-e-58-vezes-maior-que-a-do-spfc.htm
     

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  23. Gilbertsson

    Gilbertsson Member+

    Barcelona
    Spain
    Apr 1, 2012
    Geneva
    Club:
    Toronto Croatia
    Nat'l Team:
    Switzerland
    #23 Gilbertsson, Jun 6, 2022
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2022
    My ties with South America are because of my grandfather who had active agricultural business in Paraguay, river Parana, Itapua. So he often travelled from Europe to Paraguay. He had nice memories, he visited other South American countries. He introduced me with my first Spanish, Portuguese words. Through blood, I am UEFA, but I enjoy to watch CONMEBOL. It would be nice to spend year or two in South and Central America, plenty of things to see and to experience. Not only typical touristic sights.:)

    UEFA is also corrupted, but players have more chances. Just read the biography of Camavinga. He is from Congo, but born in refugee camp in Angola. His football talent was enough for him, I doubt that his parents bribed someone for his better path. In CONMEBOL, Mexico, only talent isn't enough, because many talented players vanished from the scene, they struggle in weaker European clubs....
     
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  24. Hexa

    Hexa Member+

    May 21, 2010
    Club:
    Vasco da Gama Rio Janeiro
    I could definitely get aspect of latin culture from your post. Guess it is a Latin thing instead of only Latin American. I get what you meant in your original post. While I don't believe the solution is through a centralized power, less corruption in C'BOL would be a great start.
     
  25. Gilbertsson

    Gilbertsson Member+

    Barcelona
    Spain
    Apr 1, 2012
    Geneva
    Club:
    Toronto Croatia
    Nat'l Team:
    Switzerland
    #25 Gilbertsson, Jun 6, 2022
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2022
    Technically speaking, my family heritage on both sides has Latin European origins.
    With less corruption, we could see cleaner relations in that football channel. Scouting, managers, coaches, better club and federation presidents, who want to leave some historic traces with results. Many presidents and staff members consider clubs, national teams as their own ATM.
    They push weaker players, so that they get higher Transfermarkt value.
    Several South American passports can bring the value of certain footballer, without major skills. 20, 30 millions of euros just because of passport.:D After they start to play in Europe, their price starts to drop.

    Thiago Silva now worth 2,5 millions.:rolleyes:
    https://www.transfermarkt.com/brasilien/startseite/verein/3439

    https://www.transfermarkt.com/argentinien/startseite/verein/3437

    But, CONMEBOL players carry the game in better European clubs.

    Inter Milano, when they won their Champions League, they had mostly ARG, BRA players. Real Madrid prefers Brazilians, Bayern had several Brazilians, PSG, ARG, BRA, URU.

    These are all in Uruguay

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uruguay_national_under-20_football_team
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uruguay_national_under-17_football_team

    We could expect massive resettlement in Spain, Italy.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argentina_national_under-23_football_team

    Perez - Atletico Madrid.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argentina_national_under-20_football_team

    Inter, Juventus, Villarreal, Lazio, Real, Man. Utd. Brothers Carboni, just like brothers Milito.
     
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