How to Move the Beast? A Thread for Supporters of Promotion, Relegation and Fully Independent Clubs

Discussion in 'Soccer in the USA' started by soccerreform.us, Jan 29, 2010.

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  1. Flyin Ryan

    Flyin Ryan Member

    May 13, 2004
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #476 Flyin Ryan, Mar 4, 2010
    Re: How to Move the Beast? A Thread for Supporters of Promotion, Relegation and Fully Independent C

    Hey, I can ask for money too. I'm aiming to build a car to compete in the 2012 Indianapolis 500. I'll have a website up shortly. Here's what everyone can contribute to my cause :D

    Championship Owner: $500
    Borg Warner Trophy Winner: $250
    Polesitter: $100
    Terre Haute Main Event Winner: $50
    Competitor at Clermont: $25
     
  2. Timon19

    Timon19 Member+

    Jun 2, 2007
    Akron, OH
    #477 Timon19, Mar 4, 2010
    Re: How to Move the Beast? A Thread for Supporters of Promotion, Relegation and Fully Independent C

    This is mostly meaningless and quite a bit up for debate (thus the nearly 50-page thread on it).

    Who said you were?
     
  3. soccerreform.us

    soccerreform.us New Member

    Mar 12, 2009
    Denver
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #478 soccerreform.us, Mar 4, 2010
    Re: How to Move the Beast? A Thread for Supporters of Promotion, Relegation and Fully Independent C

    You didn't do well in Algebra, I'm guessing.
     
  4. Flyin Ryan

    Flyin Ryan Member

    May 13, 2004
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #479 Flyin Ryan, Mar 4, 2010
    Re: How to Move the Beast? A Thread for Supporters of Promotion, Relegation and Fully Independent C

    Debate? We're coming up on post 500, you haven't debated anyone since about post 10.
     
  5. soccerreform.us

    soccerreform.us New Member

    Mar 12, 2009
    Denver
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #480 soccerreform.us, Mar 4, 2010
    Re: How to Move the Beast? A Thread for Supporters of Promotion, Relegation and Fully Independent C

    That'd be the truther tactic.
     
  6. song219

    song219 BigSoccer Supporter

    Apr 5, 2004
    La Norte
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    Vanuatu
    #481 song219, Mar 4, 2010
    Re: How to Move the Beast? A Thread for Supporters of Promotion, Relegation and Fully Independent C

    Better than you in English.
     
  7. Roger Allaway

    Roger Allaway Member+

    Apr 22, 2009
    Warminster, Pa.
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #482 Roger Allaway, Mar 4, 2010
    Re: How to Move the Beast? A Thread for Supporters of Promotion, Relegation and Fully Independent C

    I doubt that supporters in Bethlehem and Fall River have any national aspirations, if there are any supporters there (supporting what?). A large part of why the Bethlehem Steel team folded 80 years ago was dismal attendance. They were great on the field, but they didn't draw flies to their home games. I don't think there's been a pro or semipro soccer team in Bethlehem since the Bethlehem Hungarians folded in 1939. And in Fall River, you can walk miles today without ever seeing any sign that soccer once flourished there.

    There are plenty of supporters in Kearny, but they don't need to root for promotion from the fifth division. The new Red Bulls stadium is just a couple of miles away.
     
  8. soccerreform.us

    soccerreform.us New Member

    Mar 12, 2009
    Denver
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #483 soccerreform.us, Mar 4, 2010
    Re: How to Move the Beast? A Thread for Supporters of Promotion, Relegation and Fully Independent C

    Why do you argue with someone who isn't debating?
     
  9. Timon19

    Timon19 Member+

    Jun 2, 2007
    Akron, OH
    #484 Timon19, Mar 4, 2010
    Re: How to Move the Beast? A Thread for Supporters of Promotion, Relegation and Fully Independent C

    song is right at the top of this page. You're not very good at English.
     
  10. Timon19

    Timon19 Member+

    Jun 2, 2007
    Akron, OH
    #485 Timon19, Mar 4, 2010
    Re: How to Move the Beast? A Thread for Supporters of Promotion, Relegation and Fully Independent C

    You're not getting it. They would have filled a Maracana-sized stadium if only pro/rel had existed at the time.
     
  11. KCbus

    KCbus Moderator
    Staff Member

    United States
    Nov 26, 2000
    Reynoldsburg, OH
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #486 KCbus, Mar 4, 2010
    Re: How to Move the Beast? A Thread for Supporters of Promotion, Relegation and Fully Independent C

    He keeps his group closed because if it had promotion and relegation, he's worried he might get bumped down the ladder where he can't make people in his group listen to every last dumb thing he says.
     
  12. soccerreform.us

    soccerreform.us New Member

    Mar 12, 2009
    Denver
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #487 soccerreform.us, Mar 4, 2010
    Re: How to Move the Beast? A Thread for Supporters of Promotion, Relegation and Fully Independent C

    Maybe, but I bet they'd have better luck than the Union in sports saturated Philadelphia. Unlike the Sounders, they haven't capped season tickets yet.

    http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=41.670642,-71.179956&spn=0.0023,0.002567&t=h&z=19

    The remains of our first soccer specific stadium, Mark's field, in North Tiverton, RI. Home of the Fall River Marksmen.

    Even the Kearney Scots could take fans away from the Red Bulls if the leagues were opened.

    Best part of open leagues and independent clubs is that nostalgia can mean something. Maybe they'll never reach top flight, but that pedigree could be strong. See the mock promotion of the Sounders and Timbers for evidence.

    As Bob Kraft and Jack Kent Cooke showed, you can build stadiums just about anywhere along the I 95 corridor. Certainly, real estate is cheaper in Fall River and Bethlehem than Boston and Philly.
     
  13. Flyin Ryan

    Flyin Ryan Member

    May 13, 2004
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #488 Flyin Ryan, Mar 4, 2010
    Re: How to Move the Beast? A Thread for Supporters of Promotion, Relegation and Fully Independent C

    I did debate one of your points just on the last page in response to a debate regarding how the soccer clubs that are out on their own in open leagues are no more or less popular than rugby clubs operating under the model you want, which based on your vision of soccer support in this country, they should. You brushed this off by stating it's the pyramid is the reason no one attends these clubs' games.

    soccerreform's point: How about some deregulation of the pyramid first? If you're right, and nobody cares about first div sanction, than why doesn't MLS give it up, shield their teams from international competition instead of hamstringing them on the way into it, and run like the NASL - an outlaw league?

    I think the hijacking of the pyramid lends them far more legitimacy than you're willing to concede.

    my counterpoint: Because the vast majority of fans that buy tickets in my opinion do not care one iota about the pyramid, that's why I don't concede it.



    And I'll ask for bigredfutbol, where and when are your meetups?
     
  14. KCbus

    KCbus Moderator
    Staff Member

    United States
    Nov 26, 2000
    Reynoldsburg, OH
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #489 KCbus, Mar 4, 2010
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2014
    Look. I just fast-forwarded through the last 12 pages of this "discussion", because there's only so much I can take.

    But let's get back to basics here.

    Forget all the name-pointing. Forget the unique geography, culture, economics, and sporting landscape of our country. Forget the British Empire. Forget the history of the sport. Forget about who did or did not attend what matches, in what competitions, and in what stadium.

    Soccerreform.us, I took you off my ignore list just because it's the off-season, and I need the entertainment. So I'm going to give you a chance to start over, right now. Answer one basic question for me:

    Given the survival of MLS for 15 years when many other upstart leagues have failed, given the fact that the USA has many, many other sports to follow, and given the state of our economy right now, what is it about promotion and relegation that's so godd**ned special that you think MLS is a failure without it? What is so colossally wrong with the current system that you feel it needs to be immediately changed?

    When Crew Stadium was being built, people were harpooning it, saying it would be a high school stadium within three years. And MLS has survived long enough that it's about to enter it's twelfth season there. Seems to me, MLS is doing something right. Even more evident by the fact that new teams keep coming in. So what's the tragic flaw we're all overlooking?

    And when you get done answering that, try answering the other concern of why all these owners/businessmen/sponsors/etc. who went out of their way to decide that the current incarnation of MLS was a good investment should uproot everything they've done and adopt your system. And "because they do it in Europe, therefore it gives me a hard-on" isn't a reason.
     
  15. soccerreform.us

    soccerreform.us New Member

    Mar 12, 2009
    Denver
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #490 soccerreform.us, Mar 4, 2010
    Re: How to Move the Beast? A Thread for Supporters of Promotion, Relegation and Fully Independent C

    I liked it better on your ignore list.
     
  16. RichardL

    RichardL BigSoccer Supporter

    May 2, 2001
    Berkshire
    Club:
    Reading FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    #491 RichardL, Mar 4, 2010
    Re: How to Move the Beast? A Thread for Supporters of Promotion, Relegation and Fully Independent C

    Are you aware clubs in England cap season ticket sales too?
     
  17. soccerreform.us

    soccerreform.us New Member

    Mar 12, 2009
    Denver
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #492 soccerreform.us, Mar 4, 2010
    Re: How to Move the Beast? A Thread for Supporters of Promotion, Relegation and Fully Independent C

    But, it's all this forgetting that enables you to hold on to your beliefs....


    In this thread, KC and Crew fans seem to feel most threatened about pro/rel, and most able to accept league limitations on their club.

    I bet you blame the Cosmos for everything bad that has ever happened to the sport.

    That being said, I know that more people will be interested in a league that doesn't limit their clubs by enforcing a level of mediocrity that every owner feels comfortable reaching - especially because shortsighted domestic handicaps mean we send hamstrung clubs into unlimited international play - which is a huge part of this game.

    Why does MLS need first div status, if they're designing their entire league around domestic parity?

    Like a lot of single entity supporters, you judge MLS "success" by survival alone. That'd be the hostage mentality that keeps them alive - that and mock promotions of NASL clubs.

    The other end of the hostage mentality rears it's head: Lovely benevolent businessmen graciously granted us soccer out of the kindness of their heart and who are we to take away the entitlements that they were granted to bait them into it.

    When you get done with this rant, check to see if Don Garber will allow you to take off your handcuffs and go the the bathroom.
     
  18. soccerreform.us

    soccerreform.us New Member

    Mar 12, 2009
    Denver
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #493 soccerreform.us, Mar 4, 2010
    Re: How to Move the Beast? A Thread for Supporters of Promotion, Relegation and Fully Independent C

    Which ones with their stadium half empty, three months from opening day, I wonder?
     
  19. soccerreform.us

    soccerreform.us New Member

    Mar 12, 2009
    Denver
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #494 soccerreform.us, Mar 4, 2010
    Re: How to Move the Beast? A Thread for Supporters of Promotion, Relegation and Fully Independent C

    No, I said soccer is more popular in the United States than Rugby, and has a solid open league track record in nations with similar numbers of supporters.

    Sounds like an argument to me. Maybe even a salient one.

    So, since people don't care about first div status, MLS shouldn't give it up?

    The meetups are for supporters, not detractors. You can't threaten your way into an invite. I'll save you a PBR.
     
  20. 4door

    4door Member+

    Mar 7, 2006
    Chicago
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #495 4door, Mar 4, 2010
    Re: How to Move the Beast? A Thread for Supporters of Promotion, Relegation and Fully Independent C

    thank you for not aknowlegding the fact that millions of soccer fans in this country (mostly mexican-american) have cultural ties outside this country and follow the international game because of cultural identity. that expansion or pro/rel or re-format does not change people who do not care into people who care. thanks for keep bringing up the track record that only includes wealthy top euro leagues, there are over 50 leagues in europe, thanks for talking about 1-4 at most. Also thanks for not aknowledging the many first divisions that get grant money from their federation via FIFA. That without FIFA money from the big leagues/countries many leagues would not have the funds to operate. Thank you. trillion dollar track record (not the one for franchise sports the one for open systems) good job.

    also please aknowledge that fans of the domestic club game do not either love MLS structure or support you. The vast majority of fans think MLS can improve AND your site is a joke.

    How to develop a system...god there are lots of ways to protect the entity and allow for other clubs to join. Here is one. MLS sells franchises up to 20 and stops there. In 2 conferences there are 10 teams each. Allow nasl-usl-npsl to form regional leagues indepedent of mls. maybe 4 divisions in the west and 4 in the east. they have a tournament to select a eastern champion and a western champ and the teams are let into mls in the west/east operating outside of the single entity. They can do whatever they want, and get a cut of the SUM money for that year. The club plays in MLS and no matter where it places it much play the winner of the 2nd division the following year to stay in. This builds regional leagues, allows independent clubs to operate in MLS, it allows for MLS single entity to be protected with no chance of relegation, and it gives lots of cities the chance of getting into MLS without buying a franchise. If a club grows and wants a permanent spot, they would buy the rights to one of the original 20, and that club goes down to the 2nd division to fight its way up.

    this is one of 1000 possible solutions in the future. im not saying this is the answer but i am saying there is more choices then your plan or mls.
     
  21. KCbus

    KCbus Moderator
    Staff Member

    United States
    Nov 26, 2000
    Reynoldsburg, OH
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #496 KCbus, Mar 4, 2010
    Re: How to Move the Beast? A Thread for Supporters of Promotion, Relegation and Fully Independent C

    First of all, you're wrong.

    More people will not be interested in a soccer league that has p/r because people who don't like soccer still don't like soccer, and people who DO like soccer still like soccer. I mean, I'm sure a few Eurosnobs will, but promotion and relegation doesn't make the soccer "better", it just means that teams will be moving between the divisions. It's doesn't automatically translate to "better" soccer. "Better" soccer will come when we have an established tradition, more money to spend on quality players, and more fans who want to come to matches. If getting rid of "mediocre" soccer is truly your goal, you should be trying to get rid of the salary cap, not harping about promotion and relegation. And MLS will never have the great soccer you're looking for if it goes out of business, which could quite possibly happen without the salary cap.

    And?

    As I've already stated before, there were people who thought MLS would be extinct inside of five years. It's still here, with more teams, more fans, more sponsors, and drastically improved players/play. I couldn't care less that is isn't the Prem, or the Serie A -- it's here. And getting better. And I don't want to risk bankrupting the league for a radical shift in policy that I don't see any real benefit to in the first place.



    Businessmen aren't benevolent, you jackass. They're out to make money. Which is why they are entitled to make these decisions -- not because they were GRANTED stuff, but because they BOUGHT stuff. If you think the system is so screwed up, BUY A TEAM, ENTER MLS, AND THEN TRY TO CHANGE IT FROM WITHIN. Or start your own league. Until then, where do you get off telling investors that they have to change the system they bought into? Because you don't personally like it? Oooh...

    And the Garber comment is childish. Simply because someone doesn't agree with a point of view you've completely failed to convince us of doesn't make them a Garber stooge.
     
  22. Flyin Ryan

    Flyin Ryan Member

    May 13, 2004
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #497 Flyin Ryan, Mar 4, 2010
    Re: How to Move the Beast? A Thread for Supporters of Promotion, Relegation and Fully Independent C

    Right so all these independent soccer clubs that are around now since soccer is far more popular than rugby should have larger support than those same rugby clubs, but they don't.

    For all I care they can, they're first division by fact because they have the largest profile and best players (as champions of the U.S. Open Cup for the last 10 years have all come from MLS and the USOC is an open championship, I think that proves this). There is no by-law anywhere that says the NFL is defined as the #1 football league, but everyone sees it as such. Ditto the NBA, NHL, and MLB and MLS if it ever got that way. The defined status of the #1 league by the USSF is meaningless to me.

    So like the people that run Socialist Workers Party and other splinter third parties, the only people allowed into your private club are people that agree with you (and pay you for the right to do so, with nothing clear on where this money goes leading people to think it's just your wallet). That's why there are a thousand splinter third parties of various viewpoints when a lot of them could conjoin. People would rather be completely in charge of 0.1% instead of compromise on certain items to get 1-2% and the possibility of broadening interest and support to their cause. And acting in such a way, your job was a political consultant? Who hired you other than your internship in the White House in 1993 per your biography? I want to make sure I never vote for any of them.
     
  23. KCbus

    KCbus Moderator
    Staff Member

    United States
    Nov 26, 2000
    Reynoldsburg, OH
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #498 KCbus, Mar 4, 2010
    Re: How to Move the Beast? A Thread for Supporters of Promotion, Relegation and Fully Independent C

    And to expand on one point a little more...

    There are very few people in the USA who like soccer enough to support MLS.

    A lot of people just don't like soccer to begin with. That's clear.

    And the people who do like it, are often people like you, who think MLS isn't "good" enough, or "legitimate" enough, or "special" or "exciting" or whatever. And people who don't live in MLS markets don't have any motivation to support MLS anyway.

    Suddenly having p/r isn't going to change enough people's minds to make a difference.

    And I would say that MLS surviving and growing for as long as it has DESPITE all of those handicaps speaks to its successes, not its failures.
     
  24. Roger Allaway

    Roger Allaway Member+

    Apr 22, 2009
    Warminster, Pa.
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #499 Roger Allaway, Mar 4, 2010
    Re: How to Move the Beast? A Thread for Supporters of Promotion, Relegation and Fully Independent C

    In a sense, it did. Bethlehem Steel won the Eastern Pennsylvania League in the 1911-12 season and then moved to a higher league, the Allied American League of Philadelphia. It won that league in the 1913-14 season and again moved to a higher league, the American League of Philadelphia. It won that league in the 1915-16 season and then, after taking a season off from league play, again moved to a higher league, the National Association Foot Ball League (A New York-New Jersey league in which it was the first Pennsylvania team). It won that league in the 1920-21 season and then was among the teams that founded the first American Soccer League in the 1921-22 season.

    Those moves weren't official pro/rel, however. Bethlehem Steel was promoting itself rather than being promoted. But it was moving up.
     
  25. soccerreform.us

    soccerreform.us New Member

    Mar 12, 2009
    Denver
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #500 soccerreform.us, Mar 4, 2010
    Re: How to Move the Beast? A Thread for Supporters of Promotion, Relegation and Fully Independent C

    You're welcome. Glad to see that you're acknowledging the cracks in the "we're just a wee small soccer nation" foundation that MLS is built. You can't talk about soccer without acknowledging cultural ties, but I appreciate your efforts to paint me as anti-hispanic. Good to see you're acknowledging "wealthy european leagues" and not claiming vastly larger numbers of soccer supporters in any given European country.
    Of course, it's too bad you use all of this stuff to justify a league that handicaps it's own clubs, and uses a permanent entitlement to first division status upheld by a USSF President on their payroll to do so.

    MLS fans are important, and entitled to their opinions. Those that have stood behind this league through thick and thin - or maybe just thin - tend to be staunch supporters of the hostage mentality embedded in the single entity, and believe that the American pro sports model must be applied universally - that there is no room for the open league, and that the only path to improvement is through incremental change.

    They also tend to be here in the MLS section of Big Soccer.

    Frankly, American soccer supporters who aren't longtime MLS fans that are far easier sells. But that doesn't preclude the need for debate.

    I grant you this: You almost became the first person in this thread to put yourself out there for an alternative solution - except for that disclaimer at the end.

    So, now, I can either pick apart a plan you don't embrace, or let it go, and somehow admit that I hadn't the foggiest idea there were other options out there.

    For the purposes of debate, Let me pick at it.

    An intriguing idea, except it still embraces an underclass of clubs - but now they are actually quasi in the league. What happens when a step-club wins the league, but don't want to pay the extortion fee? Are they subjected to MLS caps? Do they get draft choices?

    To me, it's a great example of an incremental approach that asks more questions than it answers.
     
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