How to include USA/CAN in Copa Libertadores

Vasco at this point isn't good enough to get into Libertadores and so is the second and third place in the Sul Americana, those teams won't dream playing in Honduras but they would relish at the change to play Mexico and MLS teams - exposure, fan base entertained and revenue - so if they have to play Honduras so be it...

IMHO sexing up the CCL would be a logical and relative easy step

 

If we're sexying up the CCL, then we don't need South America. If we don't sexy it up, South America won't bother showing up

 

I think the problem with CCL is they have only a few good clubs from Mexican and MLS and CR (with Mexico completely dominating) so adding a couple of club from SA would, imho, make the competition more interesting. The novelty factor from playing a club from Argentina, Colombia, Uruguay, Peru or Brazil shouldn't be underestimated

Regarding the willingness of a club form those countries in participating I think you are underestimating the importance of international club competition for SA clubs (and fans) Libertadores >>>> National title, any SA team like to play in the best regional/international Cup they can. I check the results from Sul Americana last year and all the teams that reached the semifinals are playing in the Libertadores this year, the best teams that aren't playing Libertadores are Cerro Porteño (Uruguay) (storied Club) and Universidad Cesar Vallejo (Peru)

 

That's easily a given. However, the novelty of playing in Trinidad for clubs from Argentina, Colombia, Uruguay, Peru, or Brazil shouldn't be overstated.

Simply put: If we invite them, they don't come.

 

I agree in part with you, but my point is that a team would participate to play in Mexico and US, playing at Trinidad comes with the territory.

Mexico didn't join Libertadores to play at Venezuela or Equador, but in order to be able to play Chile, Paraguay, Uruguay, Argentina and Brazil they have to take some trips to some places they might not be really interested in going, imho it's the same situation...

We will have to agree to disagree

 

COMBEMOL needs to get over itself and merge with CONCACAF. When you need to invite teams to your Championship, something is wrong. Money makes the world go 'round, bitches. The Copa America should be true, and a Liga de Campeones de America would be the bomb! Imagine Boca Jrs. and America playing in the Final in New York! The bomb.

 

I don't want CONCACAF and CONMEBOL to combine or for MLS clubs to play in Copa Libertadores unless airplanes can double their speed to reduce travel time.

 

I don't think Libertadores need to invite Mexican teams, I do think it is a good thing, Mexico brings quality teams and extra revenue. and Mexico has an open invitation to the Copa America - Imho Conmebol has nothing to gain in merging with Cancacaf, and I think US soccer does not need this to keep developing.

This is the list of Libertadores broadcasters (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Copa_Libertadores_broadcasters )
besides Mexico and US I really doubt this list changed because of Mexico and I doubt merging with Concacaf would increase its worldwide markability.

Libertadores is already widely followed, the problem Libertadores has is the popularity and financial power of Uefa CL and Europe League. Europe, like it or not, is the center of global soccer so there is nothing we can do here, the prize money tells it all (I have the current figures in millions of Reais - divide by 3 for US$) Champion of: CL 123,42; E League 32,67; Libertadores 15,81; Brazilian League 9; Copa Sul Americana 6,92 and Copa do Brazil 6,19 - (http://globoesporte.globo.com/futeb...era-insatisfacao-nas-equipes-brasileiras.html) you can just put the best technical match you can (thus Mexico playing makes sense) and unique atmosphere.

I would dread the day Libertadores final would be play in NY, unless a team from NY is playing. You can tell it is a Libertadores game just by the fans and that is a good thing imho, it's our terroir - I think CL final is too sanitized for my taste.

 

What's this, the 5th post of yours trying to negate my arguments without ever coming close to explaining why a Santos would lower itself to play in Mexico?

 

I did explain many times, the cultural shock is preventing you from getting my point... I will try again:

We (and I am including my South Americans brothers here) do not have an Island mentality, thus we believe the world is bigger than our country.
That translates to a mentality were international glory means much more than a national one. As I stated before I rather win Libertadores than the national league (teams also prioritize Libertadores over local leagues). Being champion of Conmebol means more than just being Brazilian (or Argentinian, Chilean, etc) Champion. And it explain also why we take the WCC much more serious than European teams.

If you take a look at the teams that played Sul Americana you will see that many also plays Libertadores (their schedule doesn't conflict) teams here will play any international competition they can get into, it means something to us, but there is a pecking order with Libertadores on Top.

Thus teams that doesn't qualify to Libertadores don't have any international competition to play, thus imho if CCL extend an invitation to a couple of them it is a no-brainer... You are giving them a chance of playing for a Cup, earn extra revenue (gate revenue, whatever money payment CCL gives to teams that advances) etc

If Santos don't qualify to a Libertadores they will be trilled to play in Mexico or the US, because its either play in Mexico (CCL) or stay at home...

If you have any friends from SA you can test my argument, just ask them what they would think about playing CCL if they don't get into Libertadores...


IMHO it would be much more difficult to get Conmebol to extend the invitation to MLS (unless MLS teams starts winning the CCL in consistent fashion) or to agree to merge the confederations. I just don't see why Conmebol (or SA teams) would gain in doing that.

 

Okay, I'm good so far.

Excellent, you understand that the Second Level Conmebol Club Tournament is less prestigious than the First Level Conmebol Club Tournament.

Can't complain. The CCL should definitely ask. The question is 'would they say yes'

 

"Also, another whole post where you flat-out ignore the fact that :ahem: THERE ARE OTHER COUNTRIES BESIDES THE US AND MEXICO. Santos doesn't sign up to play in the shit stadiums in Guatemala, and they aren't dumb enough to not figure out that they'll have to."

I didn't ignore it I said it comes with the territory, the same way Mexican teams have to play in Boliva, Venezuela while playing Libertadores. Bad infrastructure won't phase any SA team...

"If this argument holds true, then why doesn't your High School host a tournament some empty day on the schedule? I mean, Barca and ManUtd will be thrilled to play in the deserts of New Mexico, because it's either play there or stay home"

While not a marquee Cup, CCL is hardly a HS tournament, my point is teams from SA will play the best international cup they have a chance. I've always said SA teams so Barça and ManUtd can't be used as an argument here

"Excellent, you understand that the Second Level Conmebol Club Tournament is less prestigious than the First Level Conmebol Club Tournament."

In every simple post I said teams that doesn't qualify for Libertadores

"A cup, any cup? Didn't you just say that the Copa Sudamericana doesn't enter in to Copa Lib-level teams' thinking?"

This is my empirical evidence that teams (even top ones) will play whatever tournoment they can (as long as it doesn't conflict with Libertadores). Sul Americana was created to emulate Europa League, a second tier cup. But here in SA the schedule of these two cup doesn't conflict with each other so even teams that qualifies for Libertadores will play in the Sul Americana (it's like if Barça would play in CL and EL at the same time if the schedule would permite, I doubt Barça or any other team in Europe would do that)

"Where is this money coming from, though? It's a chicken-egg thing. We need South American teams to compete so that we can make money off it, that way we'll have enough money to pay South American teams to come."

1) Gate revenue from fans going to stadium to see their team playing in an international Cup (it matters to us down here and if they are playing CCL it is because there is no other international Cup they can play)
2) Doesn't CCL have prize money
3) TV rights - doesn't CCL have one?

"Can't complain. The CCL should definitely ask. The question is 'would they say yes'"

I said invite the best team from Sul Americana that doesn't qualify for Libertadores to be fair but if CCL needs more known teams you might invite the best Brazilian and Argentinian team that doesn't qualify for Lib. you will get known teams with sizable fan base that will demand TV coverage, won't be big money but the sports TV cable channel will want to get the TV rights.

FIY: Brazilian "Big" teams that didn't qualify for Libertadores this year

All the teams from Rio - Vasco, Flamengo, Fluminense, Botafogo; Palmeiras and Santos - from São Paulo and Grêmio from Rio Grande do Sul.

Flamengo has the biggest fan base but any of these teams would generate mídia coverage from Brazil, their fan would go to stadium and demand live TV coverage


IMHO teams from SA that doesn't qualify for Libertadores would be willing to play in the CCL, these teams are desperate to be relevant in a international cup and it is an embarassment no to be playing in the Libertadores thus anything that can alleviate that would be a blessing to them in my opinion

 

Well If I remember correctly depending on what contry holds the Champion, Brazil and Argentina get 5 or 6 Copa Lib. spots, and Copa Sud Americana gets another 2 or 3, so basically you would be inviting teams ranked 8th to 10th to play in the CCL.

Now if they accept, they would still probably perform.

But the CCL is a money loser, not sure if they would want to bother flying thousands of miles in the middle of the week for the CCL.

But as Achowat said, you can always ask, wost thing they can say is no (and maybe hang up the phone laughing).

Edit:

fvck, Brazil gets a shit lot of Copa SudAmericana spots.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Campeonato_Brasileiro_Série_A

So CCL would basically have to invite teams 13th and lower.

 

You have all the facts right, the only thing is that Sul Americana schedule historically doesn't conflict with Libertadores so 6th place on would be fair game imho.

I can't find anything about CCL prize money, if it doesn't pay anything this might be a deal breaker. How is the gate revenue in the CCL, visitor team gets 40%? any TV deals?

Teams are eager to play international cups but won't be willing to pay to play, but it they get enough revenue to cover their expenses (break even) they might consider in order to play for an international cup

 

It does conflict with the CCL.

Copa SudAmerica is played in the fall (our fall) and the Copa Libertadores in the Spring.

CCL is all year (groups int he fall, elimination in the spring).

So the top teams would go to C. Lib.
Mid teams to C. SudA
bottom teams to CCL.

Argentina and Brazil are the 2 countries with the most spots, other countries that can be invited (Colombia, Venezuela, Peru, Ecuador would be easier travel wise) have less spots in South American competitions, so you are probably talking 6th-8th place teams.



I actually think inviting 2X per the 4 countries I mentioned would not be a bad idea, make the CCL 32 teams, 8 groups of 4.

 

I thought all the travel was a deal breaker... I suggested only two teams to minimize the travel.

If MLS teams are willing to cope with the travel than it is back to the original question... Forget CCL get into Libertadores somehow

 

First off, learn to use the Quote system

And we're just going to take your word for it, I presume? Venezuela is not the footballing laughingstock that Trinidad is, even if you wantit to be.

And you have failed to produce any evidence, whatsoever, to back that up. I'll even make it easy for you, and tell you the kind of evidence you need to find. Just come up with a single instance of a South American club I've heard of playing in an international club competition that I would consider at the same, or lower, level than the CCL.

This is shit evidence. Teams in Conmebol need to play in Conmebol tournaments. Just like Barca would need to play in the Europa League if they finished 3rd in their group and the Mexican Champions need to play in the CCL, even though Copa Lib is better. Clubs get punished when they don't

I understand how football makes money. But right now, the CCL doesn't generate a lot of revenue (if this is news to you, you are probably in the wrong forum). What I'm saying is that we can buy a few elite South American clubs' participation, maybe even some 'move the needle' clubs. But it would cost the kind of money that the CCL could only generate if it were a popular enough tournament that we wouldn't need to buy those clubs' participation. Like, it seems you don't understand what I'm saying, please let me help you get this.

And I'm telling you that those teams say no. And I know because if Santos calls CONCACAF headquarters tomorrow, they make it into the CCL next year.

In my tremendously qualified opinion, just saying something doesn't make it true. Back it up with more than just assertions.

And it's far more embarrassing to have to condescend to playing in North America. I know, my club plays here year round.

 

No one can produce the evidence you are asking for, no SA team has ever played in CCL or, as far as I know, is on record saying they would like to play in it (why they would say it if as of today there isn't an invitation). But if evidence was required to make an argument in Bigsoccer this would be a drastically different forum...

I could say you haven't produce any evidence that an SA team won't accept an invitation, or that the was no evidence that Mexico was going to accept a Libertadores invitation back in the day (2009 I think).

IMHO this is something Concacaf should pursue, raise the point with Conmebol (reciprocity since Mexico gets spots for Libertadores) or with a federation to test the waters and take it from there.

I believe you are selling CCL a bit short.

Regarding a possible participation in Conmebol I think (I have no evidence) it is a long shot and I wonder if it is in the long term interest of MLS to actually play in it. For the sake of the argument let's assume MLS gets the invitation and they are as competitive as Mexican teams and it is a financial success. What you are really doing is raising the profile of Libertadores in North America... you already have Eurosnobs are you willing to risk growing SAsnobs also?

 

Mexico was not invited, they wanted in, they paid the Venezuelan federation for the right to play them for their C.Lib spots, Copa Lib sponsors liked it, so Conmebol started inviting them starting the following year.

So it was the FMF that pushed for it.

 

I forgot that, guess MLS can do the same - but there is the issue about the travel

 

Has a South American team ever played in a non South American tournament? I'm not asking you whether or not there's a god; this should not be a hard question to answer

A much, much better one.

And evidence is required to make an argument, everywhere. Without evidence, an argument is just a statement of preference.

By your own admission, there is exactly 0 evidence of South American teams ever playing in a non-Conmebol tournament. I'm sorry, but if you want me to believe that South American teams are going to play on this kind of pitch, the burden of proof lies with you.

I agree, they should ask. But no team worth a shit is going to say yes.

No. I'm really not. Evidence: That pitch

So, why should I bother continuing to read?

 

Does the FIFA CWC count? or the old Inter-continental cups (they were usually 1 or 2 games only, so not really tournaments).