How much longer for Hodds?

Discussion in 'Tottenham Hotspur' started by glorygloryspurs, Sep 18, 2003.

  1. glorygloryspurs

    glorygloryspurs New Member

    Jul 18, 2002
    bronx ny
    I guess he's drawn clear of Houllier in the race to be the first sacked. When do ya'll think he goes? I think he does a fine job of assembling the squad and the injuries are not his fault, but the team constantly is not up for the big games and especially the lesser ones.
     
  2. sendorange

    sendorange Member+

    Jun 7, 2003
    Bigsoccer.com
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    It's hard to say, but I can't imagine for an instant that he would survive if we lose to Southampton and Coventry.

    If by January we're not still in the League Cup, above mid-table in the league and showing signs of looking significantly better than last year, then I expect him to be gone.

    Hoddle is excellent at assembling the foundation of a strong squad, just look at Chelsea, Southampton and us. All three times he took over a weak underdeveloped squad and turned it around into a modern and balanced outfit. The problem is that he just can't fulfil the potential. For us in particular he's been allergic to defensive midfielders and his man-management has been pretty poor.

    The one big question is whether we can find someone better.
     
  3. soccernutter

    soccernutter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Aug 22, 2001
    Don't drink beer but like cheese
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The scary part is that if he loses to So'ton, Man City and Everton, but he wins v. Conventry, he stays. Personally, no matter what happens, I think the Everton game is the decider, specially since we are playing at home. But, I hope that if we have have a change, it comes No later than mid november so that we might be able to get a defensive mid during the winter window as well as possibly another shot at diego
     
  4. roarksown1

    roarksown1 Member

    Mar 30, 2001
    Playa del Rey, CA
    Club:
    Hamburger SV
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Is a GK change in order?
     
  5. sendorange

    sendorange Member+

    Jun 7, 2003
    Bigsoccer.com
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/teams/t/tottenham_hotspur/3119940.stm

    They make a lot of very good points, unfortunately.

    Results have not been good enough and have been getting worse, Hodd has spent a fortune and not earnt anything back. As for the injuries, surely after three years he should have implemented a fitness schedule to cure this sort of thing and also realised it as a possibility when he signs players like Redknapp and Kanoute. He can't use it as an excuse anymore.

    Winning against Coventry will not save Hoddle if the league form doesn't improve. Losing to them will almost definitely hasten the end though.

    As replacements go, Martin O'Neill would be very interesting as Celtic have not given him the money to make serious improvements to his squad. Although his style of football is a bit boring and surely even if we could get him in January if Celtic are knocked out of the Champions League by then, then he would only want to use us as a stepping stone to an eventual move to Liverpool/ManYoo.

    McLeish is possible, particularly as Rangers are in financial difficulty. But on the other hand they're extending his contract and have not held back in giving him transfer money. Rangers are also going well in the Champions League.

    Curbishley would be a much more realistic one, but it's uncertain whether he can take a club higher than midtable and/or make a cup challenge. We'd probably also have to pay out a fair amount in compensation.

    Apart from that I can't really think of anyone immediately. The only other option would be to go overseas, but after the Christian Gross experiment failed, I'm not sure who the board would be willing to go for unless it was an exceptional candidate. Someone European with a trophy-winning club record like Jose Mourinho of Porto (!) or an intelligent footballing coach like Phillipe Troussier.
     
  6. soccernutter

    soccernutter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Aug 22, 2001
    Don't drink beer but like cheese
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That is a good article, and makes a valid point, specially about how the players left.

    I must clarify that I meant to indicate that if we win v. Conventry, it will only push back the departure date.

    At this point, with the squad we have, I think Spurs need a manager with sophistication and flair. I'm not sure there is a British manager available, though McLeish would be nice. The board has show courage with assembling the current squad, including getting Hoddle in a questionabe way. So I would not be surprised for Spurs to go after a foreign manager.
     
  7. prk166

    prk166 BigSoccer Supporter

    Aug 8, 2000
    Med City
    I'd like to see the boards of thee teams make up their minds on what they want. Look at Hoddle. HOw much money did Spurs just let him spend this summer? If they're sure they're going to can Hoddle they should've done it before he went and spent the budget on new players. I don't agree with the "let's see how the guy does in the start of the season" thing. He's been there long enough for them to have made up their minds on what to do or not to do.

    I don't think that Hoddle was the man for the job to start with. But they've made their commitment and they should stick it out for the season and use that time to line someone up like MIckey Adams or even Wigans' Paul Jewell.
     
  8. DigitalTron

    DigitalTron New Member

    Apr 4, 2001
    Arlington, VA
    I agree that injuries aren't really an excuse, but think about it another way. Everybody is happy to have Robbie Keane, and he's a fairly durable player and consistent goal-scorer. Hoddle let the very old Sherringham go and put his eggs in the Keane basket. Now Teddy is fit and producing and the young Keano is the one on the training table. I cannot really take exception with that move whatsoever. The only real choice there was to keep Teddy, and most seemed to agree that this was a pretty risky proposition given his age.

    So he brought in Kanoute ... and we all had concerns, but he offloaded dead wood in part-exchange and acquired a big, fast, finishing target forward for a reasonable price. Kanoute has produced, so it's hard to really criticize that move too much either.

    We all agreed and continue to agree that bringing Postiga to the Lane was a good move, yet he's the one not producing. It might be a little unrealistic to expect someone of his age who hasn't lived outside of Portugal to adjust to the Premiership so quickly, so again, judgement shouldn't be rushed on this one. Zamora is also making a big jump up in competition, and it might be wise to hold off on assessing him as well.

    So a major part of our problem has been scoring, and I think the above assessment makes me far more comfortable with Hoddle's moves in that regard.

    -Digital
     
  9. DigitalTron

    DigitalTron New Member

    Apr 4, 2001
    Arlington, VA
    Defense

    Defensively, Hoddle added a good, young, exciting, and fairly inexpensive defender to bolster the back line, but it took a while to get the terms sorted out and the visa taken care of, and it doesn't look like Mabizela is yet ready to handle the first team. But it's not because of injury, nor is it really something that Hoddle could control. The only fault here would be for inaction earlier to bring in another defender.

    The Convey move was a brilliant one, as he's a tremendously talented player with very high energy and good speed and technical skills. He can effortlessly play the wingback position, as well as central midfield. And, he was very very very underpriced, so Spurs had a steal of a player. His work permit denial was utterly out of Hoddle's hands ... and stunk of bias.

    Hoddle then made an aggressive move to acquire Konchesky on loan for a defender (Perry) who clearly wasn't the answer along the back line. IMHO, that was a shrewd move. If Konchesky works out, great, we add him. If he doesn't, we have short term cover until Ziege returns and then we really don't lose anything.

    Then, Hoddle adds Dalmat, who is a talented two way player. Is he the answer for Dmid? Probably not, but it's not the worst situation either, and he provides excellent cover for a player like Redknapp who will invariably get injured.

    Hoddle made Redknapp captain ... and it seems that he's risen to the occasion, playing good football this year and (knock on wood) yet to miss any games from injury.

    Ricketts has developed nicely, and I have faith in Marney as well.

    -Digital
     
  10. DigitalTron

    DigitalTron New Member

    Apr 4, 2001
    Arlington, VA
    Failures?

    Hoddle's failures?
    1) Not bringing in a Dmid, although he tried for Van Bommel and Petit.
    2) Not bringing in a high caliber central defender, but those tend to be quite expensive, and he tried to fill that void with Mabizela.
    3) Not bringing in a creative midfielder, although he did play the Diego card very well, because if he pursues Diego earlier there's no doubt in my mind that another team like Milan swoops us for Diego.

    Really, looking at the team, the players who are underperforming are Davies (for both club and country), Postiga (adjustment period), Zamora (adjustment period), Keane (injury), and King (home-grown and injury-prone). I haven't seen anyone saying that the solution to our problems would be to get rid of these players, so I don't really think that you can blame Hoddle for keeping them.

    Motivation and development? Who knows, perhaps this is Hoddle's weakness, but somehow I'm not so sure.

    Tactics? His tactics have produced scoring opportunities and covered for our defensive problems in most games. Birmingham City received a gift from the referee and then bunkered at home, or we would have likely beaten them. We did quite well against Leeds and Liverpool. Yeah, we lost at Chelsea ... but what else is new? Fulham was a letdown and that's the real point of contention. IMHO, Hoddle is being judged for his long term lack of trophies, his late season collapse last year, and only the Fulham game this season. As far as this season goes ... I think that's too little to condemn him.

    -Digital
     
  11. DigitalTron

    DigitalTron New Member

    Apr 4, 2001
    Arlington, VA
    Replacements

    As far as potential replacements I don't care for the list presented. O'Neill would indeed be successful, but he would be a tad boring and eventually leave Spurs for Manchester United or another club. Then Spurs would be a decent club without trophies enduring yet another transition and team overhaul as the new master brings in his players. That's just not worth it in my eyes.

    You give me a good chuckle with Troussier. I consider him utter shyte. If his ability were 1/10th his hype and ego, he'd be masterclass. As it is, he's simply a hot air baloon with an inflated head. Troussie, no thanks.

    As long as you're looking down the international route for coaches, a couple of guys we might want to consider are Bruce Arena and Guus Hiddink. I think both would be excellent coaches and have quick success. If we did bring in Arena, I'm also fairly certain that he'd stay at Spurs, even when much bigger clubs came calling, as he's a tremendously loyal guy, and 100% of the players who have ever played for him would do anything for him. He gets the best out of the best, and the best out of the worst, and molds them together into a whole that is consistently greater than the sum of its parts. Some major concerns with foreign managers is that they do not understand the league, they cannot relate to the players, and they generally try to treat the team as if the rules and considerations were identical to wherever they came from. Bruce Arena has proven consistently that he can, will, and does adapt himself, his tactics, and his management to best suit the environment. I'm quite confident that with Arena in charge of the current Spurs squad for a full season that Spurs would at least achieve a UEFA spot, and more likely a Champion's League spot. Spurs would consistently finish above Newcastle, Blackburn, and the other second tier teams behind Manchester United, Arsen*l, and Chelsea. In time he'd likely have Spurs up in that group and consistently ahead of Liverpool as well.

    -Digital
     
  12. Danners9

    Danners9 New Member

    Aug 7, 2003
    Drunken Clam, Quahog
    A lot of thought gone into those posts :)

    I would like to see Hoddle stay and at least have a few teams with the "A team" out, instead of having to fill in gaps where players are injured.

    The team of, as i would play it...

    Keller

    Carr, Richards, King, Konchesky

    Davies, Redknapp, Dalmat

    Keane

    Postiga, Kanoute

    Looks very strong, to me. Balanced, and creative.

    But.. King's now out for a bit, Keane hasn't played for ages, Dalmat and Konchesky have just come in and Davies is knackered from his Wales trips.

    Southampton can be beaten, easy. Spurs have to want it, have to want to get the crowd on their side. The Spurs crowd is very good when you're winning, but shocking when the chips are down.

    A bit of continuity please, no good having 2 years with an average squad sorting out and buying players.. for someone else to come in and potentially change it completely. It's just like 2 steps forward and 1 step back.
     
  13. jumhed

    jumhed Member

    Mar 26, 2001
    London
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    The reason all those players leaving bad-mouthed Hodd (except Teddy, 'cos his son Charlie is on Spurs's books) is because they realised that they were being let go because they were considered not good enough and didn't fit in with Hodd's 'revolution'. Lets face it, those players sucked and all went to clubs that chug kock. Hodd is now well in the process to 'building' his own team, and he needs more than 5 bloody games to get going. Jesus.

    Phase 1 of Hodd's plan was to get into Europe ASAP, which was why he bought experienced geriatrics. It didn't work.

    Phase 2 was blighted by injuries and Hodd's discovery that his squad was partly peopled by players not good enough for Spurs (hence their current clubs Wolves, Pompey, Leicester etc)

    Phase 3 is getting rid of the dross and bringing in the new. It's not going to happen after 5 games is it?
     
  14. Danners9

    Danners9 New Member

    Aug 7, 2003
    Drunken Clam, Quahog
    Interesting! How old is he, and what position does he play??

    Spurs would have got into Europe if the players hadn't given up in some games. The league position was a let down, because of the final 5 or so games! 4-0 H to Blackburn, i mean.. really!

    True, not thought of that before. But it's true.

    He has done well this summer, just time to gel and get some confidence.
     
  15. sendorange

    sendorange Member+

    Jun 7, 2003
    Bigsoccer.com
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    His remolding of the squad is without question a very fine achievement, screw moaning tossers like Sherwood. But a bit disappointing to see Freundy and Sully upset. Sully was a very good keeper, hence the move to Chelski, and although I expect he was a bit annoyed at being number 2 all the time, he only had himself to blame for losing his form then getting fat. As for Freundy, he was wonderfully committed if not very talented, Hodd did right to let him go, but I wish more of an effort had been made to make it smoother. It's not good to treat committed players badly, sets a bad example to the players still at the club, that no matter how hard they work if they don't fit the manager's specifications then they're out the door without a second glance.

    Anyway the big question with Hoddle is whether he can take the composite parts of the squad he's assembled and make it all work. The jury's still out on that, I suppose we'll know more by January at the latest.
     
  16. glorygloryspurs

    glorygloryspurs New Member

    Jul 18, 2002
    bronx ny
    I'd like to see how Spurs do when we're all healthy. I think he's established a solid squad, which I think we all agree is one good DMID away from contention. He's been brilliant at times (beginning of last season) and terrible at times (striker debacle at the end of last season). Whether or not he deserves the chance (I feel in the end he shoudl get at least five more games and some time with Keane back) is probably moot because I think he is one more debacle away from the axe.
     
  17. jumhed

    jumhed Member

    Mar 26, 2001
    London
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC

    True on the Freund thing, although i feel Steffan's grip on English may have let him down. He claimed that Hodd apologised and asked him to stay, Hodd replied that 'Steffan asked me to think about it, so I did.' And then Freund was gone.

    Several months before all the ballyhoo, Freund was asked which players he roomed with, to which he replied to the assembled journos 'I have slept with Willem Korsten.' Cue much mirth.
     
  18. jumhed

    jumhed Member

    Mar 26, 2001
    London
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    But except for the end of last season when the players weren't playing for anything and didn't want to get injured before their holidays (I know, I too want to kick them in the nads), and the Fulham game, what debacles?

    The Brum game was lost when Styles awarded them a penalty after that poofter fouled King, then there was Leeds which was cool (although they do suck very hard indeed), then a hard fought draw with boring 'Pool, then we lost to the cottagers in a fixture we hadn't lost for 65 seasons previous (thats the debacle!). Then theres the £110mil blue scum. I was surprised we even got 2 goals.

    I think Keller is treading a very fine line at the moment. He should be saving far more shots than he is. He should polish his bonce to blind the opposing strikeforce with the reflected suns rays. That'd rule.
     
  19. Danners9

    Danners9 New Member

    Aug 7, 2003
    Drunken Clam, Quahog
    Agree with your description of the games.

    Out of those games, i am only upset with the Fulham one. Chelsea, fine... Birmingham, Styles.. it's been shown in other games this season (Everton vs Newcastle last weekend).

    We must win the next ones, we can and we should.

    Edit: hah! I missed out the main point.

    Keller. He's getting on a bit now. Lars hasn't had much practise in first team action. The youngsters, the same.

    So.. who could prove a worthy replacement. Leeds' financial worries, Robinson?
     
  20. DigitalTron

    DigitalTron New Member

    Apr 4, 2001
    Arlington, VA
    Money for Keepers?

    I'm an admitted Keller fan--he's a large reason why I started following Spurs more closely--but he isn't having the best season. I don't know how much of the blame can really be put at this doorstep though. As Hoddle pointed out, against Che£$ea he had to face a 1v1 against the goalie 3 times. That's just horrendous defending, and it wasn't that abnormal.

    I don't think Keller is on the decline, and I think that by the end of the year he'll rate as one of the top 4 or 5 keepers in the Premiership, but unless the defending in midfield improves and our health along the backline improves, any keeper is going to let in a large amount of goals I'm afraid.

    I like Robinson, but truthfully, I don't see him as an upgrade. He's a good keeper, but not a great keeper. I actually have faith in Lars, who I think can be more than a solid backup and ultimately challenge for the starting position in a few years. Experience means so much to keepers, so unless a youngster has blinding reflexes, it's very difficult for a young keeper to eliminate the errors to a level of consistently high level play. They look utterly fantastic, but ultimately they don't deny enough goals despite the acrobatic play. Positioning, organizing the defense, knowing exactly when to come off your line, etc. These are the things that make veterans look like every stop was simply a shot sent directly at their chest, and they never had to make a difficult save all game. But, that's what keeps clean sheets, even if it doesn't look spectacular.

    If Spurs have money to spend, I wouldn't waste it on a keeper, much less an expensive one like Robinson. And frankly, if he'd leave Leeds for Spurs, then he'd leave Spurs as well. So even in a best case scenario it wouldn't be a perfect situation.

    No, I'd rather get a poor-man's version of Gattuso, Keane, or even Robbie Savage. That'd help the defense a heck of a lot more than a new keeper. If we could have landed a Van Bommel, a perfect tactically and technically balanced player who is a proven leader and is just reaching his prime, that would have been phenomenal. Similarly, if we could land an athletic greyhound with boundless energy, very good tackling and a wonderful panache for adding to the attack (like Owen Hargreaves!), that'd be darn good as well. I'm less enthused about a high priced but medium skilled player like Parker or Davis. While good players and definite improvements to Spurs, they wouldn't be the guys to allow us to break into the Champions League competition, much less excel there.

    -Digital
     
  21. glorygloryspurs

    glorygloryspurs New Member

    Jul 18, 2002
    bronx ny
    I think the end of last season was an unmitigated string of debacles. I'll count our string of two straight defeats to Southhampton last year (league and cup) and our ungraceful Worthlessington Cup exit also.

     

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