How many people watch and care about French league? I don't and neither do anyone else I know. I think it's total waste of money and air time. FSW will get a lot of new viewers if they broadcast J league and K league.
Well, ask yourself this. How many people care about the J league or the K league? How many J/K league teams do you think an American soccer fan can name?
Re: Re: How many people watch French league? I like the French league. Just wish the games were replayed more often. J-League: Grampus 8, Antlers, and t hat's it. French league: Metz, PSG, Lille, Guingamp, Bordeaux, Auxerre, Marseille, Monaco, and the list goes on and on.
Nice try. FOX Sports en Espanol had J League in 1995. The ratings were miserable. Neither J League nor K League sell subscriptions or ads. TV Japan (NHK's US service) dropped J League several years ago. The Korean-language channel that had K League a few years ago folded. FOX Sports World, now a MATURE business, is better off sticking just to soccer that sells. That means EPL and MLS. The other products, including French, Dutch, and German, are all losers in the US market.
Agreed. It's an entertaining league with some great players to watch. The times on FSW are terrible, though. Doesn't it air at, like, 5 pm on Fridays? Oliver: Do you know for a fact that French, Dutch and German soccer lose money for FSW? Even if so, Fox, if it wants to develop the rep as America's soccer channel, is better off showing those leagues than yet another two hours every day of paid programming for workout machines and turkey basters.
Ligue 1 belongs on TV5 Etats-Unis because it helps TV5 sell subscriptions. Ligue 1 does NOT belong on FOX Sports World because it does NOT help FOX Sports World sell anything.
I guess the question is Would FSW be the soccer channel with only the EPL and MLS? I don't think so. What sells me is MLS, and then the variety of matches. I would like more variety, and if they told me I could get Belgian or Swiss matches for an extra $5 a month. Well I'm down with that. Maybe I'm in the minority, but I don't think I am. We just want to see the game played, whenver we can, and from wherever its being played.
Note that FSI also owns the US TV rights to Copa Libertadores and Copa Sudamericana, both of which currently air only on FOX Sports en Espanol. Those products can always be used by FOX Sports World to fill time, on a tape-delay basis of course so that FOX Sports en Espanol can maintain live exclusivity. FSI likes the Futebol Brasileiro product for both FOX Sports World and FOX Sports en Espanol according to sources. Don't know yet whether FSI will keep Futbol Argentino, which no longer has the big name players it used to have in the mid-1990s (Salas, Francescoli, Palermo, etc.) FOX Sports World is past the start-up stage. As a mature business, it no longer needs to experiment with speculative products and it no longer needs to waste money on proven losers (Dutch, French, and German leagues).
Not quite on topic, but two questions: 1) Would you still say Dutch soccer would be a guarenteed money loser if FSW aired multiple (at least 2) Dutch games each weekend (maybe even live if it doesn't interfere with EPL or MLS), aired Dutch Cup games, and got rights to Holland internationals? Would seem to me there might be potential there in a package deal, especially as the internationals would get you Ruud 2) How much market share does FSW Canada have compared to the U.S. version? Has FSW/FSWC ever tried to get Canadian international rights? Would it be financially viable to do so?
O, I have no idea what the hell your reply means in response to my statement. I assume that you are saying FSW could show Brazilian ball on tape delay and that would satisfy the hunger of the American soccer fan. I'm afraid you are incorrect. The American soccer fan follows the game in the Netherlands, France, Italy,Germany Spain, England, Scotland, wherever its played in Europe. That's because the European game is the mecca for soccer - plain and simple. Now you may say that the Dutch, French and German games are money losers - but if it drives people to watch the channel, then its a good thing. I would guess the target markets that FSW is shooting for is the bigsoccer geeks and by evidence of the boards, people are watching the offerings...except for the Brazilian league. To be "America's Soccer Channel" you need to offer more than 3 leagues. I'd like to see them bring back the SPL, but without the Old Firm. In fact, this may be something that pisses off the OF, but will open the rest of the league to new money. I'd rather see Hearts v Dundee, and once again I'd pay extra for that privelege.
I watch the french league. IMHO it is the second most entertaining league on FSW (behind EPL). I would rather watch La Liga but ligue 1 has grown on me. I wish they would show more games throughout the week and think they might once the RWC is over.
The "mecca" of club soccer isn't "Europe", but a small subset of Europe, namely England, Italy, and Spain. Germany and France have slipped into the second tier. Ligue 1 has slipped because the French clubs sold most of their stars to England and Italy (and in Zidane's case, Spain). Germany has slipped because most Bundesliga clubs decided to forgo player development in favor of importing players from Eastern Europe and Africa, and the rigid system of play employed by most German clubs have stifled creativity in favor of tactical, mechanical soccer. The Netherlands have slipped into the 3rd tier. The Ajax of 2003-2004 isn't anywhere near the Ajax of 1994-1995 (van der Saar, the de Boer brothers, Davids, Kluivert, etc.) Remember that the Ajax of 1994-1995 was on ESPN2 almost every other week, and that PSV with Ronaldo was on ESPN2 every other week if Ajax were not featured. Yet Dutch Football got awful ratings and sold no ads on ESPN2 until ESPN finally gave up and cancelled the telecasts in 1996. If Dutch football with the stars didn't "sell" in 1994-1995, it certainly won't "sell" now that all the big names are gone. My read of the "soccer geeks" is this: over 90% will subscribe to FOX Sports World even if FOX Sports World offers only one league in Europe, as long as that league is the ENGLISH PREMIER LEAGUE. About the only reason I can think of for FOX Sports Int'l spending money on European products that don't "sell" (German, French, Dutch) is to be able to license a certain number of games to Global TV of Canada, the owner of FOX Sports World Canada (FSWC). FSWC, despite its name, is NOT owned by NewsCorp/FOX due to Canadian laws prohibiting majority ownership of Canadian media outlets by non-Canadian companies. (FSI also licenses 2 English Premier League games each Saturday to Rogers Sportsnet in Canada.)
Dutch Football, whether it is the league, the cup, or the Oranje, does NOT sell in the US. ESPN2 used to do Dutch Football (when it had stars such as Kluivert and Ronaldo) until it gave up in 1996, after 3 years of awful ratings and virtually zero targeted ads sold. ESPN2 tried every time slot imaginable: Sunday morning, Sunday afternoon, Monday afternoon, Tuesday afternoon, Tuesday late night. Same awful ratings. IMG/TWI markets rights to Canadian Soccer Association products. Rogers Sportsnet has Canadian TV rights locked up through December 2005. US TV rights to those products are sold on a game-by-game basis, with Univision buying those games involving Latin American opponents and US Soccer Federation getting the rights to Canada vs US matchups in exchange for the Canadian Soccer Association getting Canadian TV rights to US vs Canada.
As one NewsCorp executive explained to me in 1997: the channel is FOX Sports WORLD, not "FOX Sports Soccer". Soccer can only carry a channel so far. In the case of FOX Sports World, the one and only soccer product that has carried the channel in its entire 6-year existence is the English Premier League. Most of the rest have been fillers that don't "sell" ads or subscriptions. FOX Sports Int'l was reluctant to pursue US domestic soccer products at first. That changed with US Open Cup in 2000 (after ESPN had dumped the product and US Soccer/IMG/TWI/Nike had no choice but to barter the product to FSI in exchange for air time), US Women's National Team pre-Olympic tour of Europe in 2000, CONCACAF Women's Gold Cup in 2002, and finally MLS in 2003. (I was surprised that FOX Sports World didn't get MLS sooner. I was almost certain that FOX Sports World would get a piece of MLS in 2002 after FOX Sports en Espanol got some MLS games in 2001. Better late than never.) FOX Sports World has other international sports products, namely Rugby World Cup on tape delay (which sells ads), plus plenty of NewsCorp products it can carry for "tax management" purposes (the annual Las Vegas Darts tournament being one example). FOX Sports World doesn't have to be, nor should it be, a soccer-only channel.
I like the French League. They play a skilful, entertaining game. Oliver is right that the League has slipped from it's early 90's peak, but it's still one of the top 5 leagues in Europe. Their decline has turned around this year because they held onto most of their top players in the depressed transfer market. I've never watched a J-league or K-league game but it doesn't sound as interesting as Ligue 1. Their players don't measure up to the quality in France. I'd prefer to see the Copa Libertadores. da_cfo is wrong saying that Germany slipped because of importing players. The reason the German league is not on par with the top three is that they don't spend as much to buy top players from other countries. Buying rights to German, French and Dutch leagues for the USA only for $ they can bring from FSW Canada (a market about 1/10 the size) doesn't sound reasonable.
So the fact that they are advertising " America's Soccer Channel" holds no weight with them. I've yet to notice the big difference in the commercials, other than Carlsberg Beer. Are they any other ads I should be looking for in EPL games that are different from the ads on during German or Dutch or French broadcasts?
The "America's Soccer Channel" slogan is just a marketing slogan. Note that FOX Sports World also uses "America's Global Sports Channel" as a marketing slogan. Carlsberg is a targeted advertiser that buys ads during English Football telecasts only. Dutch, French, and German soccer on FOX Sports World have no major targeted advertisers. VIP Communications doesn't really count.
J-league and K-league are 4th tier products, on par with MLS. However, FOX Sports Int'l has strategic reason to air MLS: 1. To have access to MLS investors 2. To have access to MLS advertisers and most importantly: 3. To keep SUM/AEG from partnering with a competing media company to start a competing channel. There is one media company out there (Comcast) that is looking to screw FOX Sports World in every possible way. FOX needs to keep SUM/AEG from defecting to that particular company.
Maybe the problem isn't the leagues don't sell, but FSW doesn't know how to sell the advertising. As for the marketing slogan, its going to take more than the EPL and MLS to be build "America's Soccer Channel". Also with Tim Lieweke's statement that AEG wants a soccer channel, any chance they will join forces?
Is it possible that those at FSW actually have a "vision" of what they want the channel to be in the future? Maybe they can't make money with Dutch, French or German league matches today, but as the sport grows and the viewership increases.....who knows? Did NFL broadcasts make money from day one? MLB? NBA? Maybe....just maybe....they wish to become THE place to view soccer in the US, and they are willing to spend a bit now in order to position themselves for profit later. Isn't that what speculative business is all about? Look at MLS, the league itself, not the broadcast, the owners are willing to risk their investment in order to create a moneymaking league in the long run. Is it possible that NewsCorp, with Murdoch's billions at their disposal are betting on the long run? Not everything is measured in today's bottom line.
The "vision" you described was FOX Sports World in its early days, 1997-1999. Those days are over. FOX Sports World isn't a new business anymore. It is a mature business and it has plenty of data to know what works and what doesn't work. What sells ads and subscriptions: English Premier League. What does NOT sell ads or subscriptions: almost every other soccer product, including Dutch, French, and German (all 3 contracts expire in May 2004). That's why people scratch their heads when FOX Sports Int'l would waste money on 3rd choice La Liga matches (no Real Madrid, no Barcelona) in 2002-2003, and on 1-year deals on both Dutch and French leagues in 2003-2004. Also, UEFA Cup games that show up on 72-hour notice aren't exactly delivering return on investment either. You can't sell ads on such short notice.
Don't forget that ESPN tried to sell advertising for Dutch Football and UEFA Champions League for 2 years before FOX Sports World even existed. ESPN had to give up because those products simply do NOT deliver enough eyeballs for targeted advertising to be effective. Don't read too much into marketing slogans. That's just marketing. As for the AEG/SUM soccer channel, I have written elsewhere explaning the reason why this mythical channel is nothing more than a negotiating ploy by AEG/SUM to get better coverage from the likes of FOX Sports World. AEG/SUM does NOT have the leverage to get this channel onto systems without having to pay massive launch fees.