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Discussion in 'Real Salt Lake' started by sl7vk, Dec 28, 2005.
Ellinger survived 05... But will he survive 06?
You need a "who knows?" category... it's a brand new team - the only guys that I'll recognize from last year are the SUBS...
I tried to edit one in but it wouldn't let me. I think only a mod could do that.....
I'll put the who knows vote in the 10 games or less catagory....
I am still finding this whole "Fire Ellinger" thing amusing!
Obviously you want to be a fan of a team that likes to recycle coaches ever two years or so. I for one think that is stupid.
We can just look to fellow expansion club chivas jr and see what a great saving grace it is to fire coaches... by the way in case you didn't notice they are on their third coach in a whopping 1 season and they are still the lowest of the bottom feeders and they still suck SS!
BTW... I will vote when you add a "Fire sl7vk" option
Well, I think there is something between the Chivas and RSL model. No need to cycle through coaches..... You just need to find the right guy/fit, and that my friend, is not John Ellinger.
I voted for the next season option but only if certain things happen.
I think Ellinger will get a bit of a break this year with the WC. If RSL starts relatively well again this year and then putters out the team will point to the WC and the loss of 2-3 starters and its affect of team defensive chemistry. This argument would perhaps having merit. If the team's woes come close to matching last year's pathetic levels, Ellinger will be gone after this season. If he shows improvement , he stays.
I don't think there is anyway he is fired during the season. When a team does that they're telling the team and fans that this year is a wash and we'll start over again next year. I don't think our FO will do that.
I like the moves the team has made this offseason. I'm guessing Ellinger found that he had a bit to learn about coaching in today's MLS. With better talent and speed up front, a solid GK and a stable backline Ellinger's sophmore season should be positive.
My expectations for next season are:
1) Win a freakin' road game (more than one would be even nicer)
2) Contend for a playoff spot
3) Win RMC
4) Begin stadium construction
5) Win an open cup game
In my mind, if those things happen the season is a success. If they make the playoffs and win a game I'm making 'Ellinger is my Homeboy' t-shirts.
Make two, I'll buy the second from you and wear it to work..... Seriously I will. I'll also give my car to PBS if Trinidad and Tobago win the WC.
I think your car will still have a home in your garage this fall.
As far as my expectations of RSL next season, I think they're realistic with the group we have. So a failure (barring major injuries) would be a organization/coaching failure and should result in change.
If I could just attend games with the belief that RSL had a legitimate chance to win most nights, I'd be happy. Towards the end of last season it became harder and harder to believe that RSL really had a competitive chance in any given game. Before each game I had serious doubts if ANYONE on our team could score. We didn't have a single reliable scoring threat. And then there were the major defensive lapses that would just kill any chance of winning... It didn't keep me from going to games but it was frustrating.
I agree with Duece, firing Ellinger isn't the answer. He's a great coach and I truly believe he's the man for the job. His only fault last year was building a team for the future and not the immediate season. I feel they made the right off-season moves and will be in the playoffs next year. Those moves have made RSL a top 6 team...IMO.
My predictions and expectations...
1-They will will at least 5 road games in 06.
2-They'll finish 3rd in the Conference.
3-Who cares, the RMC is a F-ing joke (But, they'll win anyway)
4-Will start by July
5-Will win 2
On what do you base your opinion of Ellinger? Purely on his U17 days? If so, I tend to think that's apples/oranges. Last year was a disaster. I don't think they necessarily built for the future. They picked up a bunch of old guys. Sure, they picked Besagno on whom the jury is still out. (And will be for a couple more years, likely) I'm not sure you CAN even build an expansion franchise for the future. Few teams are dumping their good, young talent.
I don't think last year was all his fault. The team took a number of gambles. Most didn't work out like Mathis, Countess, Whitfield, Selowane, etc. A couple worked out as well as possible like Kreis (minus the unfortunate injury). They made what looked like a couple potentially nice late season acquisitions. But overall the results got worse as the season went on. I think he lost control of Mathis and never sorted out the midfield situation. The team had poor fitness and really lacked speed.
It's not all his fault but he definitely deserves a fair share of the blame. He may turn out to have a good year and redeem himself but it would be a stretch to call him a "great" coach based on last year.
I think RSL is likely improved, if they can stay healthy, but not top 6...yet. Well have to see how DS works at d-mid. We still don't have solid wingers. Sounds like Kreis would play a-mid, when healthy, and Williams might drop to the right side. Hopefully it works but how can you say for sure at this point? The backline is still a wreck right now. Hopefully Garlick can help organize them and if DS does well we might be able to get by. Not alot of depth up top but I like the look of Cunningham/Tarley/Watson.
So I say they're improved overall but the playoffs aren't a lock.
Very good post... Repped.
I don't think any team that has burned all of its draft picks on assorted players (we won't go into the details on how badly these picks have been wasted) can claim to be "building for the future."
So far the offseason moves seem to be decent damage control. But if Ellinger is a disaster in terms of player personel, his tactics haven't got me sold either. I think that tactically he's naive. I mean to start the season in a 4-5-1 with Kreis as your point man?
We'll see. The guy seems smart enough, and I hope that he can "learn." Time will tell.
Again? We were top 6 last season - in fact, top 5 in the west!
No solid wingers? I think Williams can do a good job and Scarlett and Gregorio have great passing ability, they just have to get on the same page as the forwards and time those passes better.
It would be nice to have some more depth at the winger position.
SP, I'm not saying Williams isn't a great player. In fact, he's my favorite RSLer. However, last year he wasn't nearly as effective on the wing than in his more natural a-mid position. So I'm hesitant to pass judgement on the Kreis/Williams experiment if they decide to go that way. It may work or both might end up being less effective playing out of position. If they decide to play Kreis up top and Williams at a-mid, then we still have the winger problem.
I like Scarlett. He's got good speed and can send it a nice cross. But last year there were major portions of games where he was almost invisible. It was baffling. They just wouldn't give him the ball. I'm not sure why. Perhaps he just wasn't quite on the same page with some of the other players. Perhaps he suffered from Mathis "I hate you" syndrome. Who knows. I think he could have a nice year this year.
However, the rest of the winger group is pretty unknown. I'm not sold on Gregorio. He just didn't show me much last year. Maybe he was still adjusting. Hopefully he'll do well. Luke might contribute this year. Maybe Tiger or Christian. But it's all guesses at this point.
So I stand by my assesment of our lack of solid wingers. We should go with Scarlett and Talley who would probably do the job. The rest is a group of guys that may surprise us but they're far from having proven themselves as solid.
If that glass gets any fuller you're going to have a deluge on your hands...
I'm willing to give Ellinger more time if he can demonstrate that he learned something from last season, though *some* of the moves we've made in the off-season don't exactly fill me with overwhelming confidence.
Cunningham will obviously add a lot, and we'll have more veteran experience in back with Garlick and Talley, but the possibility that Andy Williams will be playing out of position again this season frustrates me.
It's not even January yet though... I'm not getting the Kool-Aid ready just yet.
Regardless of the results, I will be looking at Ellinger's work...
Personnel: Ok, we all agree that he screwed the pooch last year. He did not understand the league or what he needed. He took a huge chance on a malcontent, and got severely punished for it. He left us with no speed up top, and the offense suffered. I am not going to blame him too much for the defense as the problems there related more to injury...but he did decide to hand the reins to DJ, who proceeded to underwelm like he has throughout his MLS career.
Let's face it, it would not take much to improve in this category, and the addition of Cunningham and the "slap in the face" trade of Mathis (we want you to leave so badly that we will be willing to pay you to leave) are both steps in the right direction. I think the same for Garlick over DJ (unfortunately this takes away one my favorite past-times, timing DJ's goal kicks when we are losing in the 2nd half...his all time best was 45 seconds). He also took away my 2nd favorite past-time, yelling "Red" every time Dunny went to pass a ball. DS could be an incredibly important addition to the midfield...nothing against Cutler, by DS is simply better in every facet of the game.
Tactics: OK, the first person who can clearly explain what our offensive or defensive tactics were for the 2nd half of the season gets a cookie. If there was no way for fans who watch every game to tell what the heck they were trying to do, how were the players to know.
Defensively, where were we trying to win the ball? Ellinger spent time talking about pressuring the other team, yet our players never forced the opposition into positions where we could pressure. The last 1/4 of the season, we did come out and run hard to create pressure, but we would run out of gas after 20 minutes and then our only defense seemed to be drop back, allow crosses (ok when Schrek is in goal, really bad idea with DJ), and hope they did not score.
Offensively, well, our resident naysayer got part of it on the nose. Who in the world plays a 4-5-1 where you try to play high ball or long balls to a single forward who is a slow midget? (I do like Kreis...he is kind of a poor man's Joe Max Moore...great, quick shot, scores by getting himself into good positions...completely ineffective until the team is in the final third of the field).
Even when we started to add better players, can anyone give me our tactics? Near the end, I think we were trying to force 1v1s on the outside for a cross...not a bad idea, if you have forwards who crash the goal and are good with their heads (Cila maybe)...but, additionally, you need your other mids to fill in a create numerical mismatches around and in the area to take advantage of poor clearances and 50-50 balls...NEVER happened. Almost every goal we scored on crosses were because the crosses were picture perfect and managed to hit the 1 person in the area who also managed to get wide open...those things do not happen very often in leagues that play any defense...so we were able to score on about 1 out of every 25 crosses...not good enough.
Line-ups/strategy: Ellinger moved between 4-4-2, 4-5-1, and 3-5-2 depending on what personnel he had available. I actually agree with many of the choices he made in the 2nd half of the season...he had the players in the correct positions to make them as effective as possible. But, again, there did not seem to be any tactical organization re HOW the team would play offensively and defensively.
My Major concern re Ellinger: Is not personnel or the lineups, it is the apparent lack of any knowledge of how to create team tactics. It feels like he thinks his job is to put the right players on the pitch in the right positions, and then the players will take care of the tactics. That simply is not good enough in MLS. Against organized defenses you must have a plan of attack that focuses on their weaknesses and your strengths. Against any offense you must have a plan to force them away from what they want to do and into positions where you can win the ball and immediately create your offense. The 2 most organized teams we played this year (Gansler's and Sarachan's) both tore us up because they were organized on both sides of the ball.
Oops, one other concern. Why wasn't Ellinger responsible for getting the players fit? It was so obvious that we were less fit than every team we played that the owner (who admittedly knows nothing about soccer) called out the team for lack of fitness. Maybe there is the problem...he should not be calling out the team, he should have been calling out the coaching staff.
Final thought...for me it is about more than results...if we are getting good results, is it because of Ellinger, or in spite of him? I voted for him getting the whole season before he is let go because I think the team will get better results (we have better players)...but the brain trust will eventually figure out that Ellinger has no tactical clue at all, which is unfortunate because he seems to be a very nice person.
Viva Coach E!
I voted for the entire year but what I wanted to vote for was "the entire season up until the point the team is eliminated from the playoffs". Then Kamler will step in as the intern coach with Bruce Arena signed as head coach just in time for a big happy new year present for Utah. Kamler will be the new assistant coach under Bruce.
Here is an interesting article about firing coaches... http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/4603260.stm
I guess I can't say "fire sl7vk" anymore!
This is true if you make a good hire. I think RSL has made a terrible hire, and the kickball we see is less a function of the players and more a function of our coach who is just about as tactically inept as I've seen.
At least he makes up for it with his steller draft picks and player scouting. Urm.....
Real world example is Pablo Correa the Urugayan manger of Nancy. His first year he was dead last in L2 going into the break, but his tactics were sound and he had just been a victim of poor luck, both on the injury front and on the pitch.
You'd watch the games, see his leadership, and know that he was going to pull the team out of the muck. He did. Nancy were promoted to L1 last year and now sit mid table, excellent for such a small club.
I don't see Ellinger pulling us out of the muck. You do. We disagree. You have to give a manger time, but RSL is in a critical situation as far as fan base and being successful in this market, and can't afford to have many years like last.
Another example would be Mick McCarthy at Sunderland. He doesn't deserve the sack. Everytime I've seen Sunderland play, he's had them well organized, and effecient. They just don't have the players/resources at the time. Also Mick got the team promoted last year so has some capital to burn. I'm not a sack happy guy, I just think that Ellinger is totally inept.
He was one of the prem managers I thought would be safe this year. Sunderland's had some money problems for a couple years. He didn't have much money to spend last year and definitely lil' of it around this year. I think the board's approach has been that they're going to be patient and make sure they get the finances in good order before they try to stay in the prem.