To say Ronaldo is top5 brazilian of all time would be considered an heresy by many brazilians that are older than 40 years old. I have doubts hes even the best STRIKER. We had Romario, Reinaldo, etc. Careca was a monster too.
Since Pele only 3 Brazilian forwards have conquered the world Romario, Ronaldo and Rivaldo - the Brazilian over 40s are probably operating on sentiment instead of reason. Ronaldo's credentials speak 4 themselves, 3xWPY,WC winner with 1 leg behind back! Will be crucial in 2006 campaign. BG
Ronaldo is definitely in the top 5. My Top Five 1) Pele 2) Garrincha 3) Zico 4) Ronaldo 5) Leônidas If Ronaldo was always like the 96/97 Ronaldo, he would be better than Pele. Scary but true. He isn't, but is still the best- WC 2002 proved that. Even now he dominates the Real Madrid side- when he's not playing they don't win, even with Figo, Zidane, Raul, etc. We also have to remember that Pele, too had injury times, think 1962 and 1966 WC. This entire discussion would be totally irrelevant had Rivaldo and my hero Denilson stepped up in the 1998 WC Final after Ronaldo's pre-match convulsion. Remember- Pele was hurt in 1962, but Garrincha carried the day and Brazil won, giving Pele three WC medals. If Brazil won in 1998, Ronaldo would ALREADY have three WC medals, and going for a FOURTH in Germany 2006. Ronaldo will be the all time WC leading scorer before its all done and may have another WC medal (lots of young help w/Ronaldinho, Kaka, Lucio). To say he is out of the top 5 is insane. As for the rest, I think people are undervaluing Zico. If Reinaldo had not been hurt in 1982, Careca in 1986... Zico had to do it ALL, and almost did, twice.
Its not scary, its stupid. Did you watch the Pele movie? There you can see around 5% of Peles carreer, and its enough to realize how insane you are saying such a thing. Ronaldo in 96-98 wasnt even close to the player Pele was.
In my opinion ronaldo is not the best player in brazil history for very important reason(s). I wish if Ronaldo can score goals with his head! I wish if Ronaldo can score goals from Free Kicks! I wish if Ronaldo can score goals through acrobatic kicks! If he can improve himself in these things He will be the best player in the history of Brazil. But now, he is not a complete player. He has the best control on the ball I've ever seen. I have to say it's Zico since he had the most exciting football. Ronaldo is in the top 10 and can be in top 5 with more trophies.
I wasn't gonna reply to this thread as i've not seen enough of the older legends to make fair judgment, but one thing i do know is that Ronaldo has scored many free kicks and headers. He just doesn't anymore as Real madrid has Figo, Beckham and Zidane for free kicks.
If you are really interested you can start by reading here :https://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=86621&page=3 Then you can await the documentary. Even a relatively young person must have seen the behind the half-line shot, the dummy on the Uruguayan keeper....the juggle over the Swedish defender and volley into the net...the inumerable exquisitely executed bicycle kicks...the "tabelas"....etc...... I'm surprised that a fan of football would ask such a question. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Great topic MIG…one that deserves serious thought. Because of media coverage and the ubiquitious nature of TV, to many people, especially those born in the late 70s and later (with their recollections being from mid-80s on), Ronaldo is already a Top 5 player. Is it deserved? Here’s are the characteristics I'm applying to my list of top Brasilian players in order to break it down: Skill level, Club Impact, Selecao Impact, Influence on the Game. Still in the process of thinking in through....
Let me start by saying that Pele is and always will be the best. No question. I don't think anyone will ever sustain long-term greatness like Pele did for 17+ years. I'm just saying that as far as a short-term period goes, Ronaldo 96-98 has to be considered one the best EVER, along with Pele (58-65) and Zico (80-83). You have to remember that Pele wasn't Pele every single year. Between 1959 and 1969 he scored exactly 2 goals in the World Cup. In comparing players, especially goal scorers of different eras in different legues on different continents, it amazes me how little is paid attention to the degree of difficultly in that time period. Football was played much more free and open (and better) in the early 1960's. In Ronaldo's time, teams simply play more scared and defensively. It is HARDER to score goals now. A 2-0 win today is the equalent of a 5-2 win in 1960. I know how many goals Pele scored and have all the videos, but I hope no one makes the argument that scoring in the Brazilian league in 1960 is harder than scoring in Italy in 1998. For Ronaldo to blow through the Spanish and Italian leagues like a bull through china is simply incredible, and much harder to do than in the 1960's. Playing has become much too cynical and physcial. How long would Pele last today? In 1966 he didn't last long in Europe. The combination of raw skills, endless moves, blazing speed, and physcial power that Ronaldo had in 96-98 has, I'm sorry, NEVER been equalled. The intangibles and intelligence that Pele possessed makes him better than anyone else for far longer than anyone else, but do not underestimate the 96-98 Ronaldo. Check out those videos- how many defenders can drag one player down? By the way, at 28 years old, Ronaldo is tied with Pele with 12 world cup goals and more on the way.
i am very familiar about pele and seen alot of goals by him but i saw many dribbling into the goal not much long shots,just to see if a brazilian can tell me some thing i dont know
I would argue this whole post, but what would be the point. How can you have all of Pele videos? He scored two WC goals between 59-69,yes....he played in two complete games! Everyone knows he was injured with a groin pull at the end of the first game in '62 (like Zidane in '02) and viciously fouled in the game against Portugal '66 (how would today's stars fare in a world where defenders had a license to hit, given that yellow and red cards did not exist?). Of course he didn't score in games he didn't play (its like saying Ronaldo only scored 10 goals his last two seasons at Serie A)....two goals in two complete games isn't a bad average. That was a misleading approach to using stats. Ronaldo probably was faster than Pele, but you are wrong...the combination of raw skills, endless moves, blazing speed, physical power, heading ability, reading of the game, etc has its greatest exponent in the form of Edson Arantes do Nascimento. http://placar.abril.com.br/aberto/colunistas/coluna234706.shtml Ronaldinho virou um fenômeno ao pegar a bola na intermediária e driblar toda a defesa de um timeco espanhol antes de marcar um gol. Nunca mais repetiu o feito. Pelé executava arrancadas semelhantes com freqüência. E não ficava apenas nisso. Ele chutava forte e com eficiência com a perna direita e esquerda. Muitas vezes, surpreendia o goleiro com um toque sutil de cobertura. Driblava bem tanto em espaços curtos como em velocidade. Disparava cabeçadas mortais. Na grande área, era raçudo e oportunista. Nos 400 gols do documentário, o Rei desfila um repertório incrivelmente variado. O conjunto de suas qualidades forma uma espécie de antologia do que os craques modernos reúnem de melhor. Pelé era a enciclopédia do futebol ofensivo. Did you see Reinaldo of Atletico before he got injured? Are you sure Ronaldo was much better than him?
Go ahead and follow the link I posted and you will see comments by brazilians and others of some of these things you seek. I wasn't being facetious, when the documentary comes your way you will be able to see for yourself what you seem to currently disbelieve.
Whether Ronaldo is better than Pele is a tough question because they played in very different times. I do think the teams of today would overpower the teams of the past, in general. It's not like the sport has gone backwards and the quality of teams has gotten worse just because there has been a push toward athleticism as a primary attribute of players. If you put a highly skilled player against a player of slightly less or equal skill but significantly stronger and faster, I think the faster and stronger player with fewer ball skills would win out, if the margin of difference in ball skills is not huge (which I don't think it is between players of today and the past). Clubs focus on athleticism first now because it is crucial that a player can hold his own...all the skills in the world don't matter if your opponent can just push the ball behind you and sprint faster than you and beat you. Savvy and wisdom only go so far in soccer, which is at its core, not necessarily so 'beautiful' at the highest levels. Therefore, the fact that Ronaldo is able to dominate the bigger, stronger, faster defenders of today must hold some weight over Pele's achievements when defenders didn't weight train, weren't near-world class sprinters, etc. That's not to say Ronaldo is better than Pele, but I do think Ronaldo's feats are against tougher competition.
It’s not wrong to hold Ronaldo in high-esteem at all. He’s one of my current favorites, and deserves to be mentioned in the all-time greats discussion. If you check some of my posts on other threads regarding Ronald, you'll see that. I hope my responses to Cool Rob didn't come off as marginalizing his opionion (it wasn't my intent). Its not Cool Rob's suggestion that Ronaldo 96-98 was better than Pele – though I disagree – that initiated my response. Everyone is entitled to their opinion – I once had a conversation on a with guy who tried to convince me that Hagi was as good as, if not better than, Maradona (since I was trying to date his cousin, I kept my incredulousness to a minimum ). Nor am I attempting to change his mind. I found out early on that on these boards its neigh impossible to change anyone’s mind. So unless you want to become the proverbial ‘dog chasing its tail’, you are better off-leaving alone matters of opinion. What I do respond to at times are to factual inaccuracies concerning O Rei’s career. Enough with the preamble,regarding your post Ronaldo's Idol: How many defenders are near-world class sprinters today? Lets say I accept your argument…how much harder is it today to score a goal than in the 60s? 200%, 300% harder? It would have to be in these magnitudes to close the gap in terms of goal tallied at relative stages in their careers. Are you suggesting goals in Pele's era should be divided by a factor of 4 for comparison purposes? If so Puskas, DiStefano et al would have to be compared to Andy Cole. Consider that Pele and DiStefano played in eras where they were playing around 3 games a week, almost all year, year after year. They didn’t benefit from rules that sought to protect players, as offensive players have today (as they should). How would they have fared in this environment, with better medical help, better nutritional supplements, sports medicine, more relaxing traveling conditions, etc...its hard to fathom. Could they have been even better? At least on this forum we can disagree and be civil...that is refreshing.
I agree with your top5, that was the exact same Brazil5 I had as well except for Leonidas who I wasn't even alive to see play, nor were my parents,lol. Actually if history shows, Careca was hurt in 1982, not 1986 where he scored 5 WC goals. However Romario might have a say as well. Ronaldo called him "teacher". I prefer Ronaldo to Romario personally, when healthy does more to help the team than Romario would. About Zico. Zico could score goals from all sorts of angles, whether free kicks, or that spectacular goal vs. New Zealand and more importantly could also organize a midfield. Far more harder than being a striker. He's Brazil's fatal hero. Robbed in 1978, unlucky in 82, and a little past his prime in 86. If only we'd had Careca instead of that lumbering Serginho vs. Italy in 1982
Why do you say so? Zico hardly played in 1986. He always came off the bench. Moreover, Careca was overlooked in 1982 but he was in top form in 1986 with 5 goals. I think Careca and Josimar had a much greeater impact in 1986 than Zico and Socrates.
Dermonger is right. Careca could have helped Brazil greatly in 1982. Moreover, if Romario was fit in 1990, the Romario and Careca combination would ensure that Brazil did not go out failing to score goals (they had 4 goals in 4 games!).
The 1982 match vs. Italy, we didn't have a problem scoring goals, problem was we didn't know how to stop them from going in either.
I will list SOME FEW brazilian players that were WAY better than ronaldo. - Pelé - Garrincha - Rivellino - Sócrates - Zico - Júnior - Nilton Santos - Zizinho - Gérson - Canhoteiro - Falcão - Reinaldo - Leônidas Im talking about technically better. It doesnt matter how many trophies Ronaldo or each one of these players won. Luizão won a world cup in 2002. Zico, Socrates and Falcao have never won a world cup. Does it mean Luizão is better than them? I dont think so.
This is a great discussion MIG. I understand the point about older Brazilian players in general, they're much better, but can't we give Ronaldo some credit?? The guy just scored more goals that anyone else in the WC since 1970. That has to be worth something, objectively. An interesting sidebar to this conversation would be Ronaldo vs. Reinaldo; he position, skills, and knee injuries. Watching Reinaldo and Eder togeher is one of the best things in Brazilian football.
I have been following Ronaldo since the olympics in 96 and I don't recall him scoring many headers and free kicks before or after joining Real Madrid. few Headers that I've seen he made in his career were (sloppy headers) The fact that he is not taking free kicks in any team he plays for proofs that he is not a great free kick shooter. there are other forwards like Henry and Rivaldo used to take free kicks all the time which give them an advantage over him on this side. but despite all that, Ronaldo is the best forward in my mind at this time because he does what it takes to put the ball in the net more than any ther player.
Ronaldo has actually scored quite a few goals directly from freekicks. At www.inter.it his freekick goals can be viewed. As such he is a good freekick taker. Just like he is a good penalty kick taker. It's just that there are others in his team who are good in deadball situations as well. Moreover, one player in the team should not do everything. Especially in teams like Brazil and Real Madrid with so many great players in them. If he was the single superstar in the team, like Ronaldinho (or Rivaldo before him) for eg. in Barca, he would be taking freekicks and penalty kicks as well. I think he used to take freekicks for Inter because he was the undisputed leader of the team and clearly superior to everyone else in footballing ability (i.e. in all attacking/scoring abilities). Moreover, he is a great at passing the ball too. Some of his passes over the years have been breathtaking. His combination play with Rivaldo and Romario has been great too. Sometimes such great combo with Zidane was also seen last year. I think Ronaldo is one of the greatest ever because he is one of the most complete footballers ever. And that includes skill, technique, power, speed, strength and a certain X-factor which only the greats possess. However, his one weakness is heading. Even then, he has scored from headers in his time.
Well i think that Ronaldo comes second only to Pele and that only because he has got only two WC and not three yet.(However Pele didn't have any Champions League, Fifa Player of the year award, Golden Ball, etc) Ronaldo is one of the best dribblers of all times and arguably the best, he is the best finisher, he is the only magical player since Pele and Maradona and he has done more than anyone has ever done for his clubs or Brazil. He intelligent, powerful, fast and always magical. And do not forget that his knees are clinically unusable. For what he has done for Brazil you should worship him more than argentinians worship Maradona. You shouldn't go after the first newcomer. Since when is Adriano talented? I don't think that a person can get talented at the age of 50. Talent is shown when you start not when you are about to end. Compare all your brazilian player and all the players of the world when they were 17-20 years old with Ronaldo of that time. Only Pele might be considered better.
ronaldo at his prime was FANTASTIC so i think he definitely deserves to be in brazils hall of fame list but the question should be where would you put ronaldo in brazils hall of fame list? so i would probably put him in top 5-10 if ur talking about the whole history of brazil id prolly put him in top 10 well idk i think he is like the 7th or so best cuz there were too many romario pele garrincha zico etc.