How is Alex Morgan still this good while 7 months pregnant?

Discussion in 'USA Women: News and Analysis' started by FanOfFutbol, Feb 5, 2020.

  1. lil_one

    lil_one Member+

    Nov 26, 2013
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Policy here: https://resources.fifa.com/image/up...s-tokyo-2020.pdf?cloudid=vbcdyqocqmpmddrra11o

    Pulling relevant sections out for you:

    "The purpose of selecting alternate players is, in principle, to have them available should one or more of the officially enrolled players sustain an injury or in the case of force majeure once the final competitions have started;"

    "Players may only be replaced according to the IOC Late Athlete Replacement Policy for reasons of injury, illness or force majeure. If a player who features on the final list of 18 players or four alternate players sustains a serious injury or is so ill that he/she can no longer be expected to play, that player may be replaced provided that:
    1. a) the FIFA Medical Committee has verified the injury or illness on the basis of a medical certificate issued by the team doctor responsible (in one of the four official languages of FIFA);

    2. b) the player’s incapacity has been confirmed by FIFA;

    3. c) the relevant form has been properly submitted to Tokyo 2020 by the Chef de Mission of the respective NOC (or other official NOC representative authorised to do so according to the IOC Late Athlete Replacement Policy)."
     
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  2. ytrs

    ytrs Member

    Jan 24, 2018
    Got it. Thank you. This is why I asked the question. I did not know the rules on alternates.
     
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  3. FanOfFutbol

    FanOfFutbol Member+

    May 4, 2002
    FIFA wound handle that as if it were an illness. It is not but FIFA is sexist even though they give a lot of lip service to trying not to sound so. I would guess that they would say it was a pre existing condition and that the US included her knowing of the condition and they would disallow replacing her. That is not only the view I think FIFA would adopt but I think in is the correct view for entirely different reasons. I think it would be like a player having a badly sprained ankle and that player placed on the roster because doctors saying she would be healed by tournament time and it turning out that her recovery is taking longer than expected.

    It is not a new injury but rather it is a misjudgment on recovery and FIFA would look on it as she is still able to play just short of 100% and better than she was at the time the roster was submitted.
     
  4. cpthomas

    cpthomas BigSoccer Supporter

    Portland Thorns
    United States
    Jan 10, 2008
    Portland, Oregon
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The team has not been at a stand still, it's in a process of dynamic change. Alex hasn't been part of that change. She's perhaps been able to observe it, which may be why she's been around camp. But that doesn't make her part of it.

    It certainly looks like she's going to do everything she can to be in the 18. But if she's to be in it, it should be strictly based on the current situation -- her status, where the team is in the process of change, whether her addition and someone else's deletion will make the team better, and so on. I actually believe that's how Vlatko and company will address the question.

    I'm very confident that no one presently knows how these things will turn out -- not Vlatko, not Alex, ... and certainly not any of us here on BS.
     
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  5. TimB4Last

    TimB4Last Member+

    May 5, 2006
    Dystopia
    Thank you for providing the officia
    Don't be too quick to give up. Where there's a will there's a way.
     
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  6. Bob Lamm

    Bob Lamm Member

    Mar 7, 2016
    New York City
    One more thank you to lil_one for providing this valuable information.
     
  7. lil_one

    lil_one Member+

    Nov 26, 2013
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Long post alert.

    So, because I think we need actual info here, here we go. Some further clarification on my post about previous USWNT moms' returns, here's the data/timelines:

    Fawcett: first child born in May 1994 and plays less than 90 minutes (maybe a half?) in her first friendly match back at the end of July 1994; she came back to practice though about 3 weeks after giving birth; next tournament was WWC starting in June 1995; second child born in May 1997; first friendly back was in November 1997 (played full 90); next tournament was not until June 1999; third child born in June 2001; returned to play 77 minutes in a friendly in September 2001; next tournament was in September 2003

    Overbeck: gave birth to child in August 1997; played 90 minutes in a friendly in October 1997; next tournament started in June 1999

    Rampone: gave birth in September 2005; played 67 minutes in a friendly in January 2006; next tournament was WWC in September 2007; gave birth in March 2010; played 20 minutes in a friendly in July 2010; next tournament was in June 2011

    Markgraf: gave birth in July 2006; played 63 minutes in a friendly in October 2006; next tournament was WWC in September 2007; had twins in June 2009; played 27 minutes in a friendly in May 2010; retired soon after

    Leroux: had a child in September 2016; was named to the USWNT roster in May 2017 but did not play in a game for the USWNT until July 2017; hasn't played for the USWNT since but did return to playing as a sub for her club 3 months after giving birth to her second child

    Also all that with the caveat that every pregnancy is different. One player's situation and return does not mean another player will have a similar timeline. That should go without saying, but it seems worthwhile to mention anyway.
     
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  8. FanOfFutbol

    FanOfFutbol Member+

    May 4, 2002
    @lil_one That was not a long post. Read some of mine, or do not unless you have a few hours to spare.

    What I wonder is: Have there been any pregnancies were the player tried to return in such a short period of time and where there was a major tournament upcoming in such a sort time span?

    From your post I do not think what Morgan is trying to do has ever been really attempted. Fawcett was probably the closest but there were no major tournaments in the short time span but she did return to playing is about as short a time.

    I searched a bit and found this piece but it still does not 100% answer the question.
    https://www.outsideonline.com/2290216/how-elite-athletes-come-back-after-childbirth#close

    Maybe others can read that article and glean more out of it.
     
  9. TimB4Last

    TimB4Last Member+

    May 5, 2006
    Dystopia
    Probably, but (1) @lil_one 's FIFA policy book looks like it was written before women existed; and (2) I would be surprised if there were any mention of pregnancy.

    Quoting from the general provisions (p.6):

    "6. Terms used in these Regulations referring to natural persons are applicable to both genders. Any term in the singular applies to the plural and vice versa."

    Anyway, Morgan's biggest obstacle is the commonsense, "If you're not ready to play, we're not putting you on the roster," but exactly how ready she'll have to be to pass muster is one of the things we're speculating about.
     
  10. lil_one

    lil_one Member+

    Nov 26, 2013
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    No, it has not. Mostly because it seems that players in the past have planned their pregnancies around the tournaments. Also Fawcett is on the record as saying that the first time she came back so quickly it was out of fear of losing her spot on the team, not because she was ready. There was no guarantee in the CBA then (there was no CBA at all) that you would have a chance to come back and try to regain your spot. Probably also worthwhile to note that she was back on the team so quickly at a time when the player pool was much smaller.
     
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  11. lil_one

    lil_one Member+

    Nov 26, 2013
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Shoot, I left off Rodriguez.

    Rodriguez: had first child in August 2013; played in a friendly in January 2014; next tournament was WWC in January 2015; had second child in July 2016; returned to play 10 minutes in a friendly in April 2017 (did not play any more USWNT games in 2017 and only 2 in 2018)
     
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  12. taosjohn

    taosjohn Member+

    Dec 23, 2004
    taos,nm
    #87 taosjohn, Feb 12, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2020
    Hard line. Don't roster players you aren't sure of.

    A soft line will erode into abuse faster'n you can say Birgit Prinz...
     
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  13. lil_one

    lil_one Member+

    Nov 26, 2013
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    We can compare this to an actual situation. If after Ellis put Rapinoe on the roster, she saw that she wasn't going to be fit enough for the whole tournament and wanted to drop her, do you think FIFA would have allowed it? No, they would have said something like, "you knew she was coming back from an ACL injury. You chose to roster her anyway. Too bad, so sad."

    (Ok, obviously, I'm still hung up on the inclusion of Rapinoe. If we win this Olympics, maybe I'll get over it. But I can never forget her getting subbed into that Sweden game and then having to be subbed off. Waste of a sub.)
     
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  14. hocbz

    hocbz Member

    Feb 15, 2016
    Morgan should be treated as any other player on medical leave. She chose to get pregnant (or chose to not take the precautions). Now she’s trying to use media and other tools to force her way back in. There’s no special case. She’s fit or she’s not. If she does not beat our other players in whatever camps she can attend post birth, before the roster is sent to the Olympic committee, she shouldn’t go.
     
  15. hocbz

    hocbz Member

    Feb 15, 2016
    The answer is no. She’s trying to do something that has never been done before.
     
  16. FanOfFutbol

    FanOfFutbol Member+

    May 4, 2002
    Given what Rapinoe brings to a team it was understandable that any coach might take a chance with her but I too think it was a mistake because of the limited roster for the Olympics. I also think her sub into the Sweden match was a mistake.

    I do think the comparison between her inclusion then and Morgans now is quite valid. If Morgan is not at least back 95% she should not be included. The roster is just too small for the inclusion of any marginal players at all.

    Everyone keeps saying that it is an 18 player roster but that does not really indicate what the roster really is. The roster is really a 16 field player roster for 10 field players on the field at any one time. That is there are only 6 field players available as subs or to rotate and there are only 2 days between matches. That is a very slim roster for such fast turnarounds so you really cannot have any liabilities on your roster.
     
  17. lil_one

    lil_one Member+

    Nov 26, 2013
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Geez, I'm on my third cup of coffee today but still:

    Obviously that should read *next tournament was WWC in June 2015
     
  18. FanOfFutbol

    FanOfFutbol Member+

    May 4, 2002
    That is why I included the link because, maybe, there is something close in some other sport.
     
  19. taosjohn

    taosjohn Member+

    Dec 23, 2004
    taos,nm
    Facts not in evidence?

    Doesn't seem to me to be trying to do anything more than stay within spitting distance of in shape ATM.

    And what would be forcing her way back in? Like at gunpoint or something?
     
  20. lil_one

    lil_one Member+

    Nov 26, 2013
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Agreed. With the small roster and short turnaround between games, you need everyone to be able to play. For the USWNT, every rostered field player has played minutes in the Olympics except for in 2000 (The same is not true for the WWC where we've usually had at least 1 field player not make it on the field; 1999 and 2019 were exceptions). Heinrichs had the same starting lineup every game in 2000 and used only 12 of the 16 field players in the tournament. By the second half of the final, players looked dead tired, and we lost. (We also have an additional game to play now since 2000; in 1996 and 2000, the top 4 teams went directly to the semifinal from the group stage.)

    2000 might be another good example of taking an unfit player in taking Overbeck even though she was recovering from knee surgery and Graves' disease. She didn't play any minutes in the tournament, and retired after the post-Olympics friendlies. She was the team captain though. (Yeah, you could say the same for Morgan, but I think all of Lloyd, Rapinoe, Sauerbrunn, etc will be on the roster. We've got the captaincy covered.)
     
  21. taosjohn

    taosjohn Member+

    Dec 23, 2004
    taos,nm
    Well, the Brazilian from Billie Jean's youth... Maria...…….Bueno? didn't come back till the kid was 18 IIRC...

    But the WNBA is the place to look; a whole raft of players have played into advanced pregnancy. Apparently Rebekah Brunson played and starred through the playoffs while 8 months pregnant.

    The women's softball team I managed for a couple of years, the centerfielder played the whole season from 4-7 months... slowed her down a bit, but the real trouble was the next year-- the advancing pregnancy allowed her to adjust to changes in her center of gravity as it progressed.

    But then all that weight and where it was suspended was gone overnight, and she was months learning her own body again afterwards. She got the running and catching down pretty quick-- but every swing she took drove the ball to exactly the same place, and every opponent learned to just put someone there to catch it.

    Damnedest thing you ever saw-- probably harder to do intentionally than polevaulting, but she couldn't stop doing it to save her life.
     
  22. hocbz

    hocbz Member

    Feb 15, 2016
    There's a difference between a true captain/leader that unites the team, diffuses difficult situations, deals with the refs and is respected as a leader by her teammates... and marketing/veteran face CINO's (Captains in Name Only). Julie Ertz and Sauerbrunn are the real heart and leaders of the team. Sauerbrunn was elected by her peers and inexplicably had the armband snatched away from her right before the WC. I remember a lot of fans being upset about that, even if she's a leader regardless of a piece of fabric. Lloyd, Morgan and Pinoe (although I do think Pinoe is a vocal leader moreso than the other two)...CINOs from what I see.
     
  23. FanOfFutbol

    FanOfFutbol Member+

    May 4, 2002
    I have always felt that Ertz was the obvious captain as she is one of the three or four most versatile players on the team therefore she would understand what many of the players needed to be effective at their position and she also seems to be one of the most intelligent of the players.
    BTW: I think she has a strong future in coaching if she wants after her playing days are over. She is one of the few players I have heard talk that I would want my granddaughters to be coached or mentored by.
     
  24. hocbz

    hocbz Member

    Feb 15, 2016
    Yes, she has natural leadership qualities. So does Becky, but Becky is more of a quiet leader. I think Krieger also has natural leadership qualities. I can't remember if she wears the armband for Orlando or not. Harris had it for awhile which was an even bigger joke than Morgan having it.
     
  25. lil_one

    lil_one Member+

    Nov 26, 2013
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This is getting away from the topic of the thread, but I don't think there's any indication that Sauerbrunn was "elected by her peers." I believe all captains have been selected by the coaches. I do still wonder what exactly happened with Sauerbrunn being removed as captain, but we can't say for sure that she didn't take herself out of the role. And IIRC, her being out with injury in 2018 contributed to it, or at least the timing suggested so. Additionally, every indication is that Lloyd and Rapinoe are real, not nominal, leaders on the team (vocally or otherwise), although I'd agree that Sauerbrunn and Ertz also offer veteran leadership. Of course, none of us really know since we're not in the locker room and don't see those team dynamics.
     

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