How good or great Kevin De bruyne is in the context of all time?

Carlito, I am willing to engage your points, but you have not responded here mate. I think there is a misunderstanding - I was referring to Ligue 1 awards, not this other best french award you speak of.

 

1. I agree that Del Piero was having a better season with Juventus, because if we forget about the national team, Del Piero was maybe the best or 2nd best player in the world, but when summer came around, he was being benched for an older Baggio, and when he did play, it was downright sad to see. That is why by year's end, almost no one considered him THE best in the world despite being one of the best.

You have downplayed all international tournaments. Zidane's consistently been the 2nd best (behind the fenomeno) international player of this time period (1996 - 2006), with no one being as consistently great at tournaments (his only mediocre international play was in 1996, but he was involved in a car crash, so I personally give him more leeway).

2. Zidane won France the World Cup; he scored 2 goals against the biggest national team of the era, but you want to chalk it down to them being goals from corners, but they were impressive goals nonetheless, and it's not like he scored 2 and rested his legs for the other 85+ minutes; he was always a threat against the best teams. Zidane's best games were against the best teams, Brazil and Italy, with the best Italian players being their defense and goalkeeper, who played amazingly. Zidane is not like Veron; he won't be 7.5 every game and lose in a random KO game. He is the player that will give you a 9/10 game in a World Cup final but be suspended for a group stage match.

Zidane deserved the Ballon d'Or because he was the best combined player across every tournament.

Good in Serie A? (not great or the best, but good) Check!
Good (one of the best of the tournament) in UCL? Check!
Good (Great) in the World Cup? Check!

I do not know any other player who was this consistent across the board.

Davor Suker? 1/3
Dennis Bergkamp? 2/3
Alessandro Del Piero? 2/3
Michael Owen? 1/3

The only other one you can say is Ronaldo Fenomeno from the UEFA Cup, but it was clear by the late 1990s that the UEFA Cup was being dwarfed by the Champions League, unlike in the 1970s and 1980s. The Ballon d'Or is traditionally supposed to be for the best player of the year, not the best player before the World Cup or the best player at the World Cup. Del Piero dropped all the way to 16th place because he was an embarrassment for Italy. Dennis Bergkamp was great for the country and in the Premier League but could not even beat PAOK in the first round of the UEFA Cup, so he drops to 8th, and so on.

3. The image you sent just shows Sebastian Frey being given a small paragraph about why he was given the Guerin d'Oro, which was because he was impactful for a near-relegation side, which is quite funny because it is the same reason why Baggio beat out Totti, Zidane, Del Piero, Rui Costa, etc. for the same award in 00/01, and I don't think almost anyone thought Baggio was the best in 2001 (he was still one of the best and elite but not one of the 5 best in Serie A), but because he didn't have the 5.0 dip like some others (even though they outplayed him), he won the award.

I do not think countrymen of the year awards should be taken seriously.

- 2014 Argentina footballer of the year: Lucas Pratto over Lionel Messi.
- 2018 Argentina footballer of the year: Pity Martínez over Lionel Messi.
- 2010 Portuguese Player of the Year (CNID Best Portuguese Athlete Abroad): Simão over Cristiano Ronaldo.
- 2014 Portuguese Player of the Year: Pepe over Cristiano Ronaldo

Country awards are a joke.

ESM isn't always the path to the absolute truth.

2000/01 Raul was excluded from the ESM Team of the Year despite being the clear better player then either Owen or Crespo, i think you can agree he was far superior to Owen at the very least.

2002/03 Thierry Henry is excluded despite being very obviously better than the likes of Vieiri or Kežman.

2011/12 Andres Iniesta left out of ESM TOTY which was unbelievable considering how by almost every metric was superior to Kagawa (and trust me i saw a lot of Kagawa)

2019/20 Erling Haaland was put in ESM Team of the Year over the likes of Cristiano, Mane, Benzema, etc for 13 goals in the german bundesliga, with 16 goals in the austrian bundesliga which was is a joke of a competition compared to the premier league, la liga, or serie A.

These are just a few examples of ESM getting things badly wrong at times, its just another example of why these awards should not be taken as fact.

4. Anyone can find people to prove points
https://x.com/cagiago_/status/1855621633035427935
https://x.com/utdhans/status/1758591757216870856
https://x.com/TheHolyman_/status/1350124850933854208

Although i must say that Rui Costa was unbelievable in 2001, so its obviously closer between them then any other Premier league player and KDB.

I wonder why the ballon d'or winner would want people to think that player that came behind him by just 10 or so votes is overrated and not on his level. That is like someone in 20 years proving Vini Jr. is overrated because Rodri said bad things about him.

The Totti note was probably just a joke, the same way Steve Nash joked to Shaquille O'Neal for stealing his Player of the Year award (MVP) but at the time he stood by and said he deserved it, athletes joke with each other all the time, they are people just like us. (Especially considering i don't think anyone really thought totti was the best player in 2000, the only reason one might is the Euros which would make Figo a hypocrite)

5. Just to make it clear, i don't think Henderson or Kante are talentless, they just aren't Francesco Totti or Juan Veron.

The Premier League has had some amazing players, and yes KDB does have 2 PFA Players player of the year but, just have you done with Zidane, lets breakdown some of KDB's career highlights.

20/21 PFA Players Player of the Year:
Kevin De Bruyne played 25 Games with 6 goals and 12 assists

Premier League Player of the Season - Ruben Dias
FWA Footballer of the Year - Ruben Dias

Premier League Player of the Month - İlkay Gündoğan 2x
PFA Fans Player of the Month - İlkay Gündoğan 1x
Etihad Player of the Year - Ruben Dias

Premier League Top Scorer for Man City - İlkay Gündoğan
Premier League Top Assister for Man City - Kevin De Bruyne

Kevin De Bruyne did not even win the Man City Player of the Year and lost every other major Player of the Year/month award to his own teammates, and this is just within man city players, it gets even worse with all players considered

Most Goals - Harry Kane
Most Assists - Harry Kane
Most G+A - Harry Kane
Most Big Chances Created - Bruno Fernandes
Most Key Passes - Jack Grealish
Most accurrate long balls - Conor Coady

Highest Average Match Rating [Whoscored] - Harry Kane (7.79)
Most Man of the Match Awards [Whoscored] - Harry Kane (13)

Kevin De Bruyne gets oblitirated statistically by Kane, but even from the Awards he lost his most primary aspect to Harry Kane; Premier League Playmaker of the Season. Brutal.

In this entire debate i have not once talked about De Bruyne's International Failures, UCL Failures, or Premier league failures, which he has many of.

6. I have not said nor do i think you are a rude or bad person, you were being passive agressive and i commented on it, that is all, i don't lose sleep or get emotional over a debate about a player i don't have any serious nostalgia or fanhood for. I am neither french nor a Juventus fan.

7. The only thing im clinging to is my wholehearted belief that following awards or stats is not the best way to look at things, they can be a great source for a discussion (as i have just used them against Kevin De Bruyne) but not the be all end all, if you still thought De Bruyne was the best player in the 20/21 Premier League season that is fine by me, it is your eyes and your point of view.

The difference between my perspective and yours is that i have used articles and awards to show the things Zidane has won, i have used them like a resume rather then the reason why Player A is better then Player B, but you have used them to present the reality of something although awards and accolades have shown countless times that the criteria is poor or inconsistent, voters have bias, different magazines hold completely differen opinions, etc.

It is your Point of view that Zidane is overrated and inconsistent, it is my point of view that Zidane's greatness came from the ability to impact a game no matter the opponent, a player who scores a volley in a UCL final, 2 goals against Ronaldo's Brazil, showed up for International games and big club matches, and was unbelievably intelligent. We can agree to disagree and move on.

 

Firstly, it is not fair to compare attacking midfield competition in the past with that of today, because attacking midfielders used to have more prominent roles in their teams and the best players would be deliberately played as attacking midfielders. So it appears like midfield was more stacked with talent, but football simply moved away from systems that would emphasize attacking midfielders like that. KDB is not a classic attacking mdifielder himself, neither would Zidanes, Riquelmes, Zolas, Rui Costas, etc., play in roles today that they did in the past. Talent in todays football is moved to wings for example.

So it is a false equivalence to positionally compare KDB to the names you've listed as he did not play like that, and it is wrong to expect that there are other "big superstar names" in midfield roles that KDB competed against for the same reason.

Henderson is actually a perfect demonstration of this point. Klopp's Liverpool is one of the best teams in recent times and yet they had zero individually stand out players in midfield, because midfielders had more "supportive" roles.

Secondly, you used very mid examples for KDB's comeptition. KDB played in epl from 2015/16 season up to 2024/25 season. In this time some notable midfield names are: Schweinsteiger, Cazorla, Ozil, David Silva, Eriksen, Fabregas, Pogba, Coutinho, etc.

Thirdly, this is partly about nostalgia and "things were simply better in the past". "They dont make them like they used to"

This is why Fabregas is a very important example. He is a household name that gets respect. I am positive you respect Fabregas a lot and hold him in high regard.

In 2015 and 2017 Fabregas put in great seasons. KDB at least replicated this level of performance (imo outperformed him) in 2017/18 season. Only year after Fabregas' 2017 season. So it is the same cirucmstances. And that is Fabregas, not "HeNdErSoN". Then KDB repeated it again and again and again. This would make KDB at least on the level of Fabregas.

Even if KDB's competition was "bad", he outdone all of them by a landslide in epl.

 

With all due respect, I genuinely can’t understand how anyone could believe Zidane deserved the 1998 Ballon d’Or while in the same breath admitting that Del Piero was clearly superior to him in both Serie A 1997/98 and the Champions League that same season.


So we’re supposed to believe that Zidane could spend an entire season being comprehensively outperformed by his own teammate at club level, then go to the World Cup, play two decent games (against South Africa and Saudi Arabia), two great ones (against Italy and Brazil), miss two through suspension (against Denmark and Paraguay), and be awful against Croatia in the semi-final and that’s somehow enough?

‘Consistency’ across all formats is what earned Rodri his highly controversial Ballon d’Or.

Personally, I’ll always take a outstanding performer over 50 or so games in a top-five league and the Champions League, rather than someone who was consistently good (even very good) across every format, but never truly great.

Now that you’re appealing to context and public perception at the time, I find it quite ironic that you’d bring up Ronaldo Nazário.


Ronaldo nazario was voted the 1997/98 UEFA Player of the Season which is an award that has always been reserved for players participating in the Champions League yet he won it over Alessandro Del Piero.
UEFA Club Footballer of the Year - Wikipedia

The same Alessandro Del Piero who was comprehensively superior to Zidane in the champions league

I don’t even have to agree with that decision, but the point is how he was perceived at the time and you’re appealing to that very context and perception.



In 1998, Ronaldo Nazário was seen as the best player at the World Cup (winning the Golden Ball), the best player across European competitions (winning the UEFA Player of the Season), and, according to the only metric you seem to rely on he was also the official Serie A Player of the Year.

So this was the context and you are still stubbornly refusing to admit that the only reason Zidane won the 1998 ballon d’or is because scored two goals from corners against Brazil.

Either Ronaldo Nazário suffered a stroke before the 1998 World Cup final which also left him psychologically shaken or he didn’t.

Either the Brazilian national team were completely demoralized before that final (as many of them have claimed), or they weren’t.


If it did happen, then Zidane’s so called legendary performance came against a team that was physically and mentally impaired and great only on paper.


But if it didn’t happen you enter an even darker reality

One that involves Ronaldo Nazário and the entire Brazilian team fabricating a story for ulterior motives.

Ironically, that’s the view I hold. Yet many people try to have it both ways praising Zidane’s display as legendary while still excusing Ronaldo.


It cannot be both. It’s one or the other.

So you need to clarify which version of Brazil we’re talking about

If you concede that they were crippled and demoralised then Zidane’s so-called “masterclass” loses all its weight.

Generosity a “leeway” should always be generously applied across the board

According to Sofascore Fabio Cannavaro was the 9th highest rated defender of the 1998 World Cup tournament and Paolo Maldini was the 11th


As you can see the best defenders by far were in Zidane’s own national team which, of course, goes a long way towards explaining why they conceded only one non penalty goal throughout the entire tournament.

This is a half truth or more accurately something that barely resembles the truth at all.

Lionel Messi has been voted the best Argentine player 16 times.


Sixteen
Argentine Footballer of the Year - Wikipedia


There’s also the concept of voter fatigue and in essentially the only down year of Messi’s prime , when he lost the World Cup final, lost La Liga, and exited the Champions League in the quarterfinals, they simply gave it to someone else.


Cristiano has won the Portuguese footballer of the year award 9 times



Meanwhile, Zidane was voted French Player of the Year twice between 1996 and 2006.

So what are we even doing here? You’re comparing David without his slingshot to Goliath.


You call country awards a joke, compare World Soccer Player of the Year votes to a Twitter poll, dismiss DBS Calcio, disregard ESM and Guerin awards, and say Luis Figo was just joking.


But we’re using Whoscored here

and not sofascore




KDB has been ranked the best player in the PL by Sofascore 6 times

As much as KDBs PFA awards are relevant they are also irrelevant
He could’ve easily won it in several other seasons



This

Is not unprecedented


Roy Keane won the the Manchester United player of the year in 1998/99

David Ginola won the 1998/99 PL player of the season

Dwight yorke was the 1998/99 premier league top scorer.

Dennis Bergkamp had the most PL assists.


And yet David Beckham finished second place on the ballon d’or because he was outstanding in the champions league from beginning until end


The key word is outstanding
Not consistently good or very good


You have already conceded that Zidane 1997/98 was never outstanding in any competition that he participated in.

Why not talk about it?


Juventus won the 1996 champions league without Zidane and lost consecutive champions league finals with Zidane in 1997 and 1998


Real Madrid won the champions league twice in the 4 years before Zidane joined the club (in 1998 and 2000) and only once with him at the club in 5 seasons.



Zidane never won Serie A after ADP had his career defining injury in November 1998


Kevin de Bruyne for Manchester City won the premier league(6 times) more times than he lost it(4 times)



And Kevin de bruyne with all his international failures has almost as many assists for Belgium(53 assists in 115 games) as Zidane has goals and assists for France(60 goals and assists in 108 games)

And is head butting a scumbag which effectively cost his country a World Cup title a manifest failure?


Whether Marco Materazzi deserved it or not is irrelevant.

In positions of leadership, rash decisions can have serious consequences.


Zidane was generally reliable at penalties, especially under high pressure which is exactly the skill that could have helped in the shootout France ultimately lost.


So why is Zidane not criticized for France losing the 2006 World Cup final as much as he is praised for France winning the 1998 World Cup final?

 

Not true there were always talented wingers and attacking midfielders. Best for example were more talented than Charlton and the best player in 67/68. Garrincha were more talented than Didi, etc... Tactics adapt to the players, not the other way around. What happens is that today we have more talented wingers than attacking midfielders. If we had attacking midfielders of the caliber of Maradona, Zico, and Platini today, I guarantee they wouldn't have to play on the wing because of tactical advancements. Conversely, the coaches would adapt their tactics to get the most out of them or try to stop them.

KDB isn't a great goalscorer, if he were, certainly Guardiola would utilize that. He doesn't cause he knows KDB best asset is his passing.

Henderson and his midfield teammates played supporting roles cause they weren't so good technically. So Klopp utilized their physicality to mantain high press and intensity on midfield. When he had Philipe Coutinho he were using him in the attacking midfield role and he were arguably the best player itw in the first half of the season before he move to Barcelona.

Most of those players were past their prime. Ozil peaked at Madrid era and then 2016, Fabregas peaked at arsenal era and then 2015, Pogba peaked at Juventus era, David Silva before KDB entered City, etc... So the point remains. By the time he were at EPL he had weak competition.

 

If you really want to know exactly how overrated a player is (or in this case was)you don’t look at their FIFA World Player of the Year or Ballon d’Or rankings during the seasons they were performing at a world class level.


A great player who performs well and has strong PR will always, and perhaps unfairly, have the advantage over another great player who performs just as well but isn’t as marketable or glamorous. We literally saw this last season with Lamine Yamal and Raphinha and that’s just one example out of dozens I could give.


Now let’s talk about 1998/99 which is widely regarded as Zidane’s worst season for both Juventus and Real Madrid combined.


The official best player in the world managed 2 goals and 7 assists in 40 games across all competitions.


According to DBS Calcio, he ranked as the 93rd best player in Serie A and only the 7th best player on his own team and who could even dispute that?


Juventus finished 7th in Serie A, were knocked out in the Coppa Italia quarterfinals, and although they reached the Champions League semifinals, Zidane had virtually no impact.

He scored zero goals in the UCL and three of his four assists came against Rosenborg and Olympiacos.




Yet, somehow, he still finished 4th in the FIFA World Player of the Year vote and 19th in the Ballon d’Or.


1999 FIFA World Player of the Year - Wikipedia
1999 Ballon d'Or - Wikipedia

Let that sink in.


Meanwhile, in the exact same season, Rui Costa produced 14 goals and 11 assists in 41 games — nearly three times as many goal contributions (25 vs Zidane’s 9) playing in the same position, in the same league, and during the same season.


Fiorentina finished 3rd in Serie A and were Coppa Italia runners-up.


And guess what
Rui Costa didn’t even receive a nomination for either the FIFA award or the Ballon d’Or.


Read that again: Rui Costa, same position, same league, same season, almost triple Zidane’s output and not even nominated.


So what chance did any player really have against Zidane in the FIFA World Player of the Year vote when he could perform at a level that was let’s say merely good or even very good? Nobody stood a chance and that if anything is the clearest proof of how distorted the perception around him truly was.



Zidane didn’t have to do much to be hailed as great. A single elegant touch, a long diagonal pass, or a roulette in midfield was often enough to send commentators into raptures about his supposed genius.



And when he actually did put together a genuinely good or even great performance it was immediately elevated to “one of the best ever” as if football had never seen anything comparable. This became a recurring theme that anyone who watched him live or has seen the many match comps of his games on YouTube can easily attest to.



Another angle to explore is why do so many millennials consider Zidane to be overrated even when there is no logical reason for them to dislike Zidane

Why is that?


Because he never had great G+A?
Xavi Hernandez never did either



Is he the symbol of Real Madrid for modern day fans and does he live rent free in the minds of traumatised Barcelona fans(one of the biggest and most vocal fanbases in the world) like Cristiano Ronaldo does?

Not he does not


Was Zidane ever perceived in his own era as being arrogant and self centered as Cristiano is by many fans today(a logical reason to dislike him if you believe it)

No he was not



Has Zidane been accused of a very serious crime like Cristiano Ronaldo has?

No he has not


People don’t ask the question why do so many modern day fans regard Zidane as being overrated and just readily dismiss this as mere noise “from children who don’t watch football”.


There is no logical reason that can explain why Zidane is treated as such a polarising footballer except that many people have come to the realisation that his reputation as footballer doesn’t align with his performances over the 800 or so games he played as a professional player.


The case against Zidane is far bigger than how many goals he scored or how many assists he provided.


At some point perception became reality and Zidane’s reputation outgrew his football and the real job is figuring out exactly when that point was.


It is inexplicable to me that in 1999 Zidane could finish merely 22 points behind Michel Platini in the vote for French player of the century and ahead of Raymond Kopa


Was he by 1999 already a greater player than Eric cantona considering literally all of the latters best work was produced in that decade.
And if he was by that kind of margin ?



None of this make sense to me at all and not even recency bias can explain it either


Recency bias in 1999 would reflect how Zidane had just won the World Cup in the previous year

It would also reflect how he wasn’t voted the first,second or third best player in the 1998 World Cup

How he had never won the champions league up until that point

How he was a mediocre player in the Euros up until that point

It would reflect exactly how mediorcre he was in Serie A 98/99

How he was never voted French player of the year until 1998
and how Alessandro Del piero was always considered to be the best Juventus player up until his injury in November 1998.


It is a complete mystery I swear.

 

Well, Rakitic played in the very same position as Modri´c, at the same time and league and has much more goals and assists than him yet no one says he's better. I don't know nothing about Zidane vs Rui Costa in that season but I don't agree with the way the argument is being made, mate

 

1.) Rui Costa was comprehensively superior than Zidane when it came to non goalscoring/assisting aspects in Serie A
RUI WILL MAKE HIS MARK AT MILAN | Football News | Sky Sports

This data is not from 1998/99 but it is from 2000/01 a fact that makes it even worse because 2000/01 was the season Zidane won the Serie A player of the year award


2.)Rakitic was never at any point producing 3X as many goals and assists as Modric in La Liga.
I did not say Rui Costa 98/99 scored and assisted more than Zidane
I said he scored and assisted at a rate 3x higher then Zidane




3.)Luca Modric himself was extremely overrated when he won the ballon d’or in 2018(even more overrated than when Zidane won his in 1998)

Let’s not open this door


And even if you want to remove guys like
Gareth Bale(played 296 minutes in the 17/18 CL)
Lucas Vasquez(played 544 minutes)
nacho Fernandez(played 596 minutes)
Modric still barely scrapes the top 10 on his own team


We both know why he won it and it is still highly questionable if Modric was even clearly better than Rakitic or mandzukic when Croatia reached the 2018 WC final
Croatia Archive - History

In April 2018 nobody on this planet considered Luca Modric to be one of the best let alone the best player of the 2017/18 season and that point 90% of the season had already been played.

Ballon d'Or 2018 latest betting odds: Mo Salah, Cristiano Ronaldo or Lionel Messi? | London Evening Standard | The Standard

 

Insane
FIFA Awards - World Cup 1998 "Golden Ball"

So Zidane wasn’t considered to be the best player on his own team in Serie A 1997/98 by anyone

Neither the best player on his own team in the 1997/98 champions league by anyone

And according to FIFA (not Carlos) he was the 6th best player at the 1998 World Cup with not one but two French players ahead of him


And even with all of this he still managed to win the 1998 FIFA World player of the year award


And by this absolute landslide vote

FIFA Awards

Complete and utter fiction
Steven Spielberg would cry tears of joy watching this sci fi movie.



Maybe Zidane did something otherworldly in the 1998 portion of the 1998/99 season?


—————————-



———————————-



———————————-

 

Positions and roles do not really exist. Players are not born with an attacking midifielder gene. Positions and roles are fabrications and products of philosophy and cultures of that time. From the early age, players are literally coached and molded into whatever shape a philosophy demands.

Players used to be molded into a classical attacking midfield role. The role that rarely exists anymore, because it turned out to be inferior to other systems.

Attacking midfielders do exist, but they are not like they used to be in the past. There are no more one-man-show attacking midfielders, which is why there is an appearance of diluted talent in this position. It only appears like that, because dependancy and responsibilities in current systems are dispersed through other roles.

Healthy distribution of responsibility across multiple roles on the pitch almost always beats responsibility concentrated onto a single role or a player.

Teamwork > individuality

This is why football is strategically and philosophically goinf in direction it does and why classical AM are almost certainly extinct.

 

Absolutely he were overrated in his ballon d'Or win. He weren't even better than Kroos in the season and he arguably weren't croatia best player on that wc final run. He were hyped because he were the common trend between wc and cl like Rodri 2024 or Jorginho 2021. I'm not talking about it. I'm talking he were a better player than Rakitic despite scoring/assisting less. Yeah, the proportion for g/a is higher for zidane x rui costa than for modric x rakitic but on both cases their main roles isn't to score goals or provide the final pass. it's a bonus that counts of course but i don't think they should be judged by that. I'm sure you consider Xavi a better player than Lampard but the later scored much more than 3x than xavi

 

Frank Lampard wasn’t playing the same role as Xavi(let alone in the same league)


Xavi spent most of his career playing as a deep lying playmaker/central midfield

And when Xavi(in 2008/09) played in a role that perhaps resembled the role Frank Lampard often played in Frank Lampard did not produce 3x as many goals and assists as Xavi


And since you mention Frank Lampard

Frank Lampard had 40 G+A in 2008/09


Xavi Hernandez had 41 G+A in 2008/09



Chances created roughly equal aswell

Xavi created 124 chances during the 2008/09 LaLiga, the most recorded by Opta in a single campaign since data was collected in 2003/04.

He providing 20 assists in total, including four vs. Real Madrid in a 6-2 Clásico win at the Bernabéu. 🎨

— Squawka (@Squawka) October 8, 2021

Frank Lampard created 134 chances in 2008/09, the most on record by a Chelsea player in a single Premier League season.

Super Frank. 🦸 pic.twitter.com/s6DsD6seES

— Squawka (@Squawka) July 29, 2025

This is despite the fact Frank Lampard took basically all of the penalties and freekicks for his team(another fact people overlook when they criticise Didier Drogbas apparently weak goalscoring record)



Xavi had to share set piece duties with Ronaldinho,Eto’o then later Messi




For most if not all of his career, Frank Lampard (whom I rate very highly, by the way) was usually the second most advanced outfield player on his team and alternating between an attacking midfielder and at times a second striker.


Not to mention in this very season(2008/09) he took as many shots as Cristiano Ronaldo
The statistics: Why Manchester United will miss Cristiano Ronaldo | Football | theguardian.com


Did Xavi ever in his life take as many shots as Cristiano Ronaldo?





You can look for some more examples but you will not find any


Rui Costa played in the same position,at the same time,in the same league as Zinedine Zidane and produced 3x as many goals and assists as Zidane in Serie A 1998/99.




Yet the Frenchman finished 4th place in the 1999 FIFA World player of the year vote and the Portuguese wasn’t even nominated.

This is not an opinion let alone it being my opinion

It is literally a fact.


Nobody from his era could get away with doing so little and be praised so highly as much as Zidane could
His media ratings across the board were also trash in 98/99

And neither is there even a shred of evidence that suggests that Zidane was ever contributing more than Rui Costa outside of goalscoring and assisting in Serie A


In fact there is data from later seasons when Zidane was at his absolute peak that suggests the complete opposite(that Rui Costa was dribbling considerably more,his pass accuracy was superior and he was even defending/tackling more)


ZIDANE SET TO BE A REAL SMASH | Football News | Sky Sports









RUI WILL MAKE HIS MARK AT MILAN | Football News | Sky Sports

 

Too busy to tackle most points and I doubt I will do so until you address my initial foray into this convo which remains unanswered.

But facts need to be clarified:
1. The 1998 Golden Ball was voted BEFORE the final. The fact that Zidane is 4th! in spite of the disproportionate negative effect of his red card expulsion in early rounds contradicts your characterization of his performance. Anyway, if it was voted at halftime like subsequent awards, he would assuredly have ran away eith the award. And walked away with POTT in 1998, 2000, 2006.
2. You have to withdraw citing Worldsoccer - a UK based magazine where the "award" is a reader poll. This is incredibly unserious.

 

You claim that facts need to be clarified(and in bold font) but the first thing you say is not a fact.

Zidane was ranked the 6th best player of the 1998 World Cup tournament
Not the 4th

It is literally in the screenshot



Remind me of your question or any other reservations you may have.
I multitask a lot and can’t keep up with everything.


Was it about the world soccer vote that you have just mentioned now?
Throw it in the dustbin I don’t need it

You still need to deal with this

1.)Zidane wasn’t the 1997/98 Serie A player of the season according to DBS calcio


2.) Zidane wasn’t the Serie A player of the year according to according to the official award
Serie A Footballer of the Year - Wikipedia



3.) Zidane wasn’t the 1997/98 Serie A player of the year according to Guerin Sportivo
Guerin d'Oro - Wikipedia


4.) Zidane wasn’t even rated as being a top 3 player on his own team in 1997/98(in all competitions) according to La Stampa




5.)Zidane was the 6th best player in the 1998 World Cup according to FIFA


6.)Zidane wasn’t the best player in the champions league according to UEFA
UEFA Club Footballer of the Year - Wikipedia


7.)Zidane was completely mediorcre in the 1998 portion of the 1998/99 season

If you don’t want to take it from me or DBS calcio or any of the sources I have presented then perhaps you will take from this Guardian newspaper article dated November 28th 1998

Juventus have a mother of a job to survive Istanbul | Football | The Guardian

This “predictably patchy” form lasted well into 1999

And if you don’t want to take it from sports journalists who watched him live then perhaps you will take it from Zidane himself


Football: Zidane at a loss to explain form slump | BelfastTelegraph.co.uk

Can you explain it?

 

1. I feel like you keep saying 'own teammate' as if Del Piero was just his superior teammate and nothing more, but for the club alone, Del Piero was arguably the best in Europe, and again, I don't think the gap is enormous between them but again, Del Piero was an embarrassment for his country, starting his campaign terribly and being benched by the player he was supposed to take the reins of Italy from, only to come back and look worse than he ever did for his country.

Zidane was great in the World Cup; whether you think he was the best in a very stacked tournament of players (I think almost everyone would agree with me on that) does not matter; at the bottom line, he was great. Del Piero wasn't just bad in the World Cup; he was borderline pathetic, and again, being the second-best player for your club but being the best in the World Cup is not unprecedented for the best player in the world. Cannavaro 2006, Ronaldo 2002, Paolo Rossi 1982, and, hell, even Messi in 2022, etc.—some of these are not even the second best.

2. The difference between Rodri and Zidane is that Rodri was neither impactful in the Champions League nor anywhere in the realm of Zidane in an inferior competition (EUROs), and everyone would agree with that.

3. I am not sure what your point is. I didn't state that as something I had seen or public perception; I was simply stating how I view it and the level of competition that was in it compared to the 1980s, not anything I had seen about it at the time, for example, Inter's opponents in the 1997/98 UEFA Cup.

Neuchâtel Xamax (0-4) Inter
Lyon (3-4) Inter
RC Strasbourg (2-3) Inter
Schalke 04 (1-2) Inter
Spartak Moscow (2-4) Inter
Lazio (0-3) Inter

If you rewind 10 seasons prior to 1987/88, the winners (Leverkusen) faced teams like Barcelona, Feyenoord, and Werder Bremen. My view was just that the UEFA Cup as a whole was much stronger in the past. Now I'm not here to argue it; if anyone has sources that prove me wrong, they are welcome, but just my general perception was that the UEFA Cup was weaker. Maybe I worded it poorly, but that is all.


Ronaldo was great in 1998, but I think the issues with his season were the lack of UCL Football (compared to Zidane) and his terrible performance in the final (where, of course, Zidane played amazingly). Ronaldo winning the UEFA Club Player, I don't think, was viewed as a consensus; I think the only thing generally favorable for Ronaldo was the UEFA Cup and Serie A, but considering even Del Piero (who had a better non-World Cup season) finished 16th, I don't think Ronaldo, who finished behind Suker, who won fewer awards for club and country, can be justified by undeserved awards, and by the voters' view, it was not.

4. I mean, if I lost my country the biggest international final in embarrassing fashion while being seen as a superstar, playing poorly, and even costing my nation a three-peat of the World Cup (something Pele did not even achieve) i would also pull out the stress and illness card as an excuse. Although I don't doubt a young Ronaldo faced immense stress, and they all did, it also applies to the French team; that is what a World Cup Final does to you. I just give more leeway to Ronaldo because of how young he was, the pressure he had, and the poor playmaking throughout the match (apart from maybe 1-2 instances), but again, that is still no excuse for his terrible play.

5. I said who played amazingly, i.e., in the match they played. That's why I highlighted the goalkeeper especially, because they outplayed the French defenders/goalkeeper in that match.

6. So you agree Lukaku was better than Kevin De Bruyne in 2020 and 2021? because he won the Belgian Footballer Abroad award over KDB, and Hazard was better than him from 2017 to 2019? So KDB was only his country's best player in his prime (2017 - 2023) twice? You can say he won it twice after then and twice before them, which is true, but the multiple-time PFA winner, best Premier League player, and Mr. Consistent won the same amount of awards you heavily criticize Zidane for in his prime, and you can say, "Well, Hazard was amazing," which is true, but wouldn't the same logic apply to Henry, Thuram, and Vieira? I think these awards aren't to be taken very seriously. Ronaldo was in 15 FIFPRO World 11 teams but only a 9x Portugese Player of the Year.

I don't see why you think World Soccer is a serious award, it is a poll amongst fans, its like saying the Dubai d'Or is a serious award.

The other sources you mentioned (DBSCalcio, ESM, Guerin) i don't hate/dismiss/not value i just do not think these are the be all end all and i have shown many times in my replies how often they get things wrong, the same with other awards like Ballon d'Or.

7. How many times has Sofascore been accurate?

- 15/16
PL Player of the Year Winner: Jamie Vardy
Sofascore Ranking: 18th

- 16/17
PL Player of the Year Winner: N'Golo Kante
Sofascore Ranking: 33rd

- 17/18
PL Player of the Year Winner: Mohamed Salah
Sofascore Ranking: 4th

- 18/19
PL Player of the Year Winner: Virgil Van Dijk
Sofascore Ranking: 4th

- 19/20
PL Player of the Year Winner: Kevin De Bruyne
Sofascore Ranking: 1st

- 20/21
PL Player of the Year Winner: Ruben Dias
Sofascore Ranking: 40th

- 21/22
PL Player of the Year Winner: Kevin De Bruyne
Sofascore Ranking: 1st

- 22/23 PL Player of the Year Winner: Erling Haaland
Sofascore Ranking: 5th

- 23/24 PL Player of the Year Winner: Phil Foden
Sofascore Ranking: 2nd

- 24/25 PL Player of the Year Winner: Mohamed Salah
Sofascore Ranking: 1st

3/10 Rankings were correct, so this isn't just a rarity they are wrong, if it was 7/10 or 8/10 i would believe sofascore as a much higher accurate source than WhoScored, DBSCalcio, etc but it is not the most accurate source. I also believe this applies to Whoscored although i haven't checked directly, another reason these apps aren't always accurate (I did indeed use Whoscored but just to show the impact of Harry Kane rather as the reason for why he deserved the award).

Roy Keane was not deserving either, but i do not have any source for why he won this award so i will not assume.

8. Sure lets talk about it, but first let me adress what you say about Zidane.

You are removing all context for any player just by looking at who won and who lost, disregarding any sort of change in team, managment, tactics, injuries, anything of that sort, but lets just focus on Zidane.

The ratings from the thread you used earlier in this conversation (from the user bugs bunny on Zidane)

1997 UCL Final
- Zidane was given 6.5 by both La Stampa and La Gazzetta, the highest out of every forward and midfielder.

1998 UCL Final
- Zidane was given 6.5 by La Gazzetta and 6.0 by La Stampa, the highest amongst all forwards (including Del Piero) and all midfielders (excluding Davids, who was given equal ratings)

Zidane was still his teams best player across both finals (i have also watched both finals and agree with 1998, although i think he was better then 6.5 in 1997)

Zidane in his 30s won Real Madrid the same amount of UCL Trophies as KDB did for Man City (with what most consider the greatest coach, one of the greatest strikers in PL history, a 100 point team, one of the greatest teams in modern history, etc and lost to the likes of post-hazard chelsea) but alas we will focus on Zidane for now.

Zidane won them one UCL trophy yes, but it was not from fault simply of his, he took Real Madrid to the 2002 final and won it with a beautiful goal and a man of the match award, in the next 2 seasons he took them to a semi finals and quarter finals, by 2005 Real Madrid was a mess, and Zidane was near retirement by this point, Real Madrid were not the Real madrid of the late 90s anymore.

Zidane never did win the Serie A after Del Piero was injured, but lets zoom on some extra context.

Juventus lost their main scorer and never replaced him, signing flop Henry and bench sitter Esnaider in the winter, neither doing anything of substance (a combined 3 goals in 29 games between them), and this isn't proof that del piero was the reason juventus were good, it was proof that they overly relied on Del Piero as a scorer and never made a reliable signing to replace him pre or post injury, if Haaland tore his ACL on match day 1 of the 22/23 season and never replaced him, they would not have won the Premier League or Champions league.

In 2000 they bounced back, signing Kovacevic to finally help replace Del Piero (who did come back but at a weaker version, scoring 12 goals in 45 games) but by this point a lot of their key players had left, such as Peruzzi, Deschamps, Di Livio, etc. All because of Juventus incompetence in trusting a youngster to replace one of the best scorers of recent years.

I know what you are going to say, "but the season Zidane left Juventus won Serie A, and also won in 2003" yes, because when Zidane, Inzaghi, and Van der Sar left they replaced them with juggernauts like Nedved, Buffon, Thuram, Salas, Trezeguet, and even Del Piero at his best since 1998, Juventus' board were the most incompetent during the Del Piero Injury issues, but with the money from the stars leaving, they brought in proven Serie A players unlike a french youngster from an inferior league to replace one of the worlds best.

9. I will talk about Kevin De Bruyne's failures later, but i want to ask (and i would like you to answer) why you almost entirely only focus on De Bruyne's Premier League Career but not mention his UCL, World Cup, or EUROs career? which most would say is equally if not more important, is it because you value consistency (38 matches vs 7 - 12)?

10. Just on the last point here, He is not critized as much because he was the one who put them in the position in the first place to even go to penalties, i dont know many footballers that could score a penalty against buffon in a world cup final, let alone if it was small-game Henry or another small fry like Malouda or Ribery.