I was just looking into some finance info on how the mls compares to other league, and I stumbled onto something. The EPL is worth about the same value as the NHL. That might sound unimportant to you but remember the nhl is usually considered a half sport, and the epl is considered the top soccer league in the world. This is also doubly important because the nhl is the sport that can most easily be compared to MLS, it's binational, it's very international with respect to europe, it's popular in many of the same areas of North america. And like the MLS the nhl will never be the most dominant sport. Why I bring all this up is people's attitude about soccer. People I think blow out of proportion how far we'd have to go to have the best league in the world, and at the same time blow out of proportion how much better things would have to get to have a truly respectable league. In my opinion MLS will never compare to europe and has no need to, my guess is once we can get ourselves on par with half the value of the nhl, the mls will have made it. There is plenty of room in North american sports for such a league P.S. this is a general question don't get too caught up into what I've said, and keep in mind what I'm saying is a work in progress and I'll have more to say.
OH NO,THE BAND IS OUT ON THE FIELD!!!!!!!! we all look forward to a strong league. just gotta keep supporting it.
Still a ways: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJP1HMVgBDA"]NBA Players, Owners Agree That Both Sides Are Selfish - YouTube[/ame] (watch 'till the last segment)
It's a problem most sports don't have. The best hockey league is the NHL, and is likely to stay that way for at least a few decades, if not longer; the best baseball league is the MLB, and is likely to stay that way for at least a few decades, if not longer; the best gridiron league is the NFL, and is likely to stay that way forever; the best basketball league is the NBA, and is likely to stay that way for a few decades, at least, if not longer. If I'm to be honest, I don't think these leagues will be surpassed or even closely matched within at least 50 years. There is nothing to suggest otherwise. The difference between soccer leagues are varied, even at this early stage of soccer globalization. La Liga arguable has the highest quality players (certainly the best team in the world); Germany has highest average attendances; EPL has largest international revenues and prestige; Italy not long ago was considered the best. My point is that soccer leagues are always in flux. And even if you tell Germans, Spanish and Italians that the EPL is the best league in the world over and over again, what are the chances that they will ever support an EPL team over a domestic team? Virtually zero, which is why every domestic league has its place. Soccer may initially grow through international league coverage, but in the end it is domestic teams themselves that drive the sport to a far greater level. Without the MLS soccer in the US is nothing, and has no future. So there is no point discussing finances, because MLS will ALWAYS be played alongside other great leagues. Same goes for the EPL or any other league: they have always been played alongside other competitive leagues, and the competition will only get tougher with time. MLS, J-League, Chinese Super League, Brazilian Serie A etc are all burgeoning leagues. It might look odd for North Americans who are used to their leagues being far and away the best of their respective sports, but thats just the reality of soccer. No one league will end up as a runaway leader in world soccer. If anything, more domestic leagues are getting stronger. But the idea that Americans dont support sports league which don't have the best talent has been debunked by the MLS. It is amazing how much the MLS has grown considering all the factors that might potentially work against it - lower quality talent, poor media coverage, etc. In saying that, US demographics are far more conducive to having one of the top leagues in the world. I think it will eventually get to that point, but the grand scheme of things won't change. Germans aren't going to stop supporting their teams because of a Sounders team with the best player in the world. They are more likely to pay closer attention to the MLS while still supporting their domestic teams, like they do now with say, Barcelona. So there's really little point in desiring for the MLS to be the best of anything. There's nothing special about being regarded as the best league in the world. What's important is that the league is viable, producing players, and great for fan experience and involvement. Its going to be a world where rich countries with large, urban populations and good infrastructure will have very comparable leagues. I fully expect that soccer will have 13 leagues averaging over 20,000 by the end of this decade alone. That is simply unheard of in other pro sports. To put it in perspective, any other pro sport that averages over 20k has only 1 league that does so (outside of baseball that has the US and Japan), and most of those are based in North America.
I strongly agree with much of what you've written, but I underscore this in particular. And I think that helps MLS.
its gonna help all of the world. imagine what the club world cup would be like if there was no clear cut favorite to take it all (like Europe every time). i think we are about to all witness some amazing things happen.
If mls didn't have so many barriers to entry it would be much better financially and culturally The j league only has to deal with a handful of baseball teams. China competes with a few hoops teams. India if they get the infrastructure and community connections down only has cricket. 4 major sports and soccerphobia and eurosnobs and xenophobia and etc
What are the 'many' barriers to entry does MLS have? An owner with a pot to piss in, some business sense and a 20k seat stadium!!!
I agree. It's been interesting to watch people like Wigan's Dave Whelan rail on against foreign ownership in the Premier League and the remarks coming out of Liverpool about revenue sharing. I don't want to turn this into a discussion of the merits of his complaint -- there are other threads for that -- but it seems to me some of these small market clubs in the Premier League are burying their heads in the sand here on this critical point about where the game is headed. Wigan derives most of its revenue from shared TV money and, increasingly, that growth is from the sale of foreign rights in places like Asia, the Middle East and North America. The problem for the Wigan's of the world is the day is fast approaching where the fans in those places aren't going to be content to watch Wigan play Liverpool, they are going to want to see their teams play Liverpool in some meaningful tournament. As TorontoFCMelbourne says, rich countries with large urban populations will win the day here -- China, Japan, and MLS now boast a number of teams that draw more than small market EPL clubs like Wigan. The only thing propping up Wigan is the huge TV money the EPL can extract abroad. And that makes them incredibly vulnerable IMO. The big teams in the emerging leagues are rising. Most of the established football world just can't (or won't) see it yet.
That'd be a better comparison were Manchester United not worth about four and a half times as much as the Toronto Maple Leafs ($2.3bn to $505m). That's who you're competing against to become "the best league in the world". Thirty times Bolton Wanderers doesn't really cut it.
But Wigan are cannon-fodder; they're there as fuel for glory-supporting. A group of historic and world-famous teams have set-up a system where they get relentless victories domestically and genuine competition amongst themselves continentally. Where does Seattle Sounders fit into that exactly?
i'd suppose that seattle, or any other CONCACAF team, would have to be the ones keeping the world famous teams from consistently earning the title of "club world champion". at some point, European teams are gonna start wondering why they cant win the tournament, despite having the best players.
Look where the Premiership money is coming from. The Swiss Rambler from his latest (excellant) blog entry: http://swissramble.blogspot.com/ Small Premiership clubs outside of the Champions League are dependent on TV money, and that money is increasingly coming from abroad. The big clubs, the "brands" as they put it, will find an international audiance, but the others? The fans in Seattle -- indeed fans in several markets around the globe -- are making a choice for their hometown team. In terms of gate receipts and sponsorships, I suspect they pass Wigan now. Broadcast rights are the difference, and as core support from fans in China or Japan or the U.S. grows, that money will start to find its way to those domestic teams. It's pretty simple really: clubs will need big markets and/or wealthy patrons to survive in this new world order. Fans who will not only come to the games, but pay to watch them on various platforms. Those fanbases in these large markets are being slowly built up now in these emerging leagues (and don't forget Brazil, which economically hasn't been able to retain its best talent but is getting its act together). The day is coming, fast, when these emerging leagues will say to the broadcasters -- we can deliver a bigger audience for all but the biggest EPL games with the biggest EPL clubs, so spend your money here. And when they do, those big EPL clubs (and Spanish clubs and Italian clubs) will find a way to play them. And the small market EPL clubs will revert to being just that . . . small. MLS has wealthy owners. MLS is in large markets (certainly comparatively). MLS is developing a solid, growing core of passionate fans. Yes, it's a work in process. It's simmering on the stove. But when it's done, watch out.
I thought the hypothetical was you were "half a NHL" and bigger than Wigan, now you're saying you'll have the best teams in the world?! Colour me confused.
Firstly, he's saying that ONCE MLS becomes half the value of NHL then MLS will have arrived. And the second point is that eventually someone outside of Europe will start winning tournaments like the CWC and he figures it will likely be a club from CONCACAF.
thanks Ironhorse. I do think MLS is here already, since it is starting to show it can compete in the CCL. and you dont need to have the best players on your team to be the best team, but it helps. RSL had a cohesive unit that took them all the way to the CCL Final. I think that it will be team cohesiveness and higher salaries that will dictate how MLS teams are successful.
IF Mazembe had beat Inter Milan, they would be called club world champions. That doesnt mean they were the team with the most quality, but they certainly would've earned title as a team. Europe will always have the best players. the teams with the most quality and money and prestige. I never said we would have the best teams in the world. i said the world will have a fun time watching European teams not being able to win the CWC on a whim. doesnt have to be an MLS team. it could be a mexican, chinese, Japanese, or a team like Tout Puissant Mazambe. they just need to have the right players and a team chemistry.
I realise he said ONCE. Hence why I used HYPOTHETICAL. And will winning the CWC be done based off half an NHL or actually on equal or greater parity to the best in Europe? What he said ("consistently") suggests the latter. This thread has had no greater analysis of the business model and economics of football, let alone competition structure, politics, logistics and general prestige, than "lots of people = good", just said in a really long, long way. It's not that simple. Man Utd are only open to what benefits them and creating a competition that genuinely allows Urawa Red Diamonds to legitimately have a chance to sign their best players, beat them on the pitch, destroy them in the Japanese market, surpass them in the Asian market, challenge them in the international market and split TV money more evenly is not in their interests no matter how many people are in Japan and no matter how many more people they can get through the gates than Wigan. Keeping Urawa in football's backwaters and selling a load of Man Utd shirts in Japan after you spank some English fodder every week is just far more profitable.
TorontoFC guy, I think you rationalize the situation very accurately. I'm not sure though if MLS does not have the ability to un-seat NHL within 20 years in the U.S, not Canada. And I dont have the desire to consider MLS "better" than Euro leagues. My interest was pulled though and really took off, when recognized the International element of the game. CONCACAAF and maybe someday competing against the Euro or Asian clubs as well. Also, when I began attending Sounder games I immediately felt like this was such a unique game experiance compared to MLB/NFL/NBA and even College sporting events. So I have to believe there are still millions of me's out there who have the potential to shift there discretionary time and income to MLS.
You made your best point there when you said, "the world would have fun time watching" thats entirely true, and would help the sport grow even more.