As you all surely know, Messi has purportedly retired from Argentina. I personally think he will come back and play in the 2018 World Cup. But let's assume he doesn't change his mind, and his NT career is over. Where would you rank his NT career? I'm particularly curious how people rate his NT career compared to other players in the top 10-20 of all time. I realize I could've started this discussion in the Messi/Ronaldo thread, but this isn't about Messi's GOAT claims overall, nor is it about Ronaldo. I believe an honest assessment of Messi's NT career actually has him relatively high up, especially for the sheer number of tournaments he has excelled in. Let's go over his major tournaments: 2006 World Cup: He made a good contribution in limited playing time. There's little to say here, because he only played 122 minutes, but he showed good quality as a youngster. 2007 Copa America: He had a really good tournament. While he wasn't able to prevent Brazil shellacking Argentina in the finals and didn't have a particularly good finals, he was undeniably one of the few best players of the tournament overall. This was evidenced by being top 3 in Player of the Tournament voting. 2010 World Cup: He gets stuck being managed by Maradona, which was never going to turn out well for Argentina. And Messi did not score. But he was being played in a deep role and created a bunch of chances while dribbling all over the opposing teams. He was in the top 10 in Golden Ball voting. 2011 Copa America: Messi is relatively lackluster in the first couple group-stage matches as Argentina suffered two draws. He then has one of his greatest games ever to ensure Argentina went through--albeit against a weak Costa Rica team. He then has a good game against Uruguay--setting up Argentina's only goal--but Argentina lost on penalties. 2014 World Cup: Messi has a dominant group stage. It was against a weak group, but the rest of the team wasn't clicking so they needed his contributions quite a bit. He then has a great performance in the Round of 16 against Switzerland. Against Belgium and the Netherlands, he is merely solid/good. And he was relatively average in the finals. Overall, he was given the Golden Ball award. Many here disagreed with that award, but there is no denying he was one of the best few players in the tournament. 2015 Copa America: In the group stages and QFs, Messi plays well in a bunch of very defensive matches, being the best player on the pitch but not utterly dominating. He then completely dominated in the semifinals. In the finals, he was relatively average, though he was the catalyst for the best chance of the game, missed by Higuain. Overall, Messi is named Player of the Tournament. He was pretty clearly the best player in the tournament, but it was a very defensive tournament in which no one--including Messi--could consistently dominate. 2016 Copa America: Messi utterly dominates the matches he played until the final. He got a relatively easy draw to the finals, though. In the finals itself, he actually has a pretty good game, creating a number of solid chances after some dribbling runs. However, Argentina does not score, and he badly misses a penalty in the shootout. He does not win the Player of the Tournament award, but in my view was clearly the tournament's best player. Alexis Sanchez simply won the award because you couldn't give Messi a third straight award after losing in the finals. _______________ So here's what we have. Messi had two tournaments--the 2015 CA and 2016 CA--in which he was pretty clearly the best player in the tournament. He had one tournament--the 2014 World Cup--in which he was certainly one of the top few players and very arguably the best player. He had another tournament--the 2007 Copa America--in which he was one of the top few players. And he played well in early exits in 2010 and 2011. There's virtually no player who has so frequently been the best or amongst the best players in a tournament. At the same time, Messi never ultimately dominated a tournament to an extent that a few players have. He came close in the 2016 CA, but the finals perhaps puts him a rung below that, especially when we take into account that the teams he played prior to that were relatively weak. In other words, Messi may have more really good tournaments than most any player, but there are players whose best tournament was better than Messi's best. Moreover, he was never the best player on the pitch in a finals match. Many NT legends weren't either (hell, Maradona never really was), but it is still important. And his statistical output when he faced top opponents was low (no goals or assists in 7 matches against teams with >1900 Elo Rating, from the 2010 WC onwards). _____________________ Given all that, I still think Messi has had amongst the greatest NT careers of all time. The 1986 WC has to put Maradona ahead, even though he was not superior to Messi for Argentina outside of that. The combination of WC 1958 and WC 1970 probably puts Pele above Messi, though he really did benefit from amazing teams and from weak opponents in 1958. Platini wasn't super great for France outside of Euro 1984, but that tournament by itself might put him above Messi, since it was so good (though it must be said that the strength of the opposition was not super high). I think Gerd Muller's amazing consistency in coming through for Germany puts him above Messi. Garrincha probably edges ahead due to 1962 and generally being good otherwise. Romario and R9 perhaps edge ahead for also being quite good in multiple tournaments, but having an individual tournament that IMO is probably better quality than any of Messi's. I think Messi goes just below this rung. For me, he goes on the same rung with guys like Cruyff and Eusebio, who simply had one amazing but ultimately unsuccessful NT tournament. This is also the same rung as guys like Iniesta, Xavi, and Zidane who had more team success than Messi but weren't as consistently their team's best player match to match (I know some will disagree about that regarding Zidane, but take a gander on the Xavi/Iniesta/Zidane thread if you want to discuss that too much). It's also the same rung as MVB and Kempes, who had one amazing and successful NT tournament, but were a legitimate disappointment otherwise. So IMO, it goes something like this: Tier 1 (in no particular order): Maradona Pele Gerd Muller Platini Romario R9 Garrincha Tier 2 (in no particular order): Messi Iniesta Xavi Cruyff Zidane Eusebio Van Basten Kempes I'm sure I'm forgetting about some players that deserve to be on here, but you get the basic gist. Thoughts?
I suggest lift up Zidane Tier 1, insert Beckenbauer in Tier 1, Paolo Rossi & Didi & Matthaus in Tier 2. It is hard to rank Magyars and pre-1958. Messi never had won any major competition, and I don't think 14Messi reached 74Cruyff & 66Eusebio. so IMO, Messi is bottom of Tier 2, maybe top of Tier 3; Masopust, Yashin, B. Chartlon, Rivellino, K-H. Rummenigge, Rivaldo, Thuram, F. Cannavaro, etc.
Best ever. No one has dominated three major NT-tournaments with three other "name" players failing him each time. Not Maradona, not Zidane, not Pele.
The cognitive dissonance and spinning you Barca fans/Messiphiles have to go through makes me pity you. No intellectual honesty whatsoever, and you are fully aware of the mental gymnastics and double standards you adopt. Unbelievable, I am in awe.
I highly doubt Messi won't return for the World Cup. In case he won't it would be extremly pathetic going out the way he did and I would heavily question his leadership/character if he would be content with it. Actually I expected him to be more motivated than ever following that game...
I think you are referencing this more to @Bada Bing than to me, but it must be said that you are the very last poster on this forum who should criticize anyone for "cognitive dissonance" after you insisted that Zidane dribbled more than Messi.
I don't think 2014 Messi reached 1974 Cruyff or 1966 Eusebio either. But Messi was very good in multiple tournaments (CA07, WC14, CA15, CA16), while those guys each just had the one tournament they excelled in. It's a bit unfair, since Eusebio was never in another major tournament, while Cruyff was only in Euro 1976 otherwise. But having multiple really good tournaments has to be given weight, IMO, even if it's unfair to some players. I'll note that in the case of Eusebio, he did not shine in the many qualifying campaigns Portugal failed in after the 1966 WC, so he can't just get a pass for not qualifying. And Cruyff did not shine in Euro 1976. Still, though, I recognize that it's a bit unfair to them, but I also think it'd be unfair to not put value on a player repeatedly giving really good performances in major tournaments as opposed to just once.
For Euro 76 for example I guess you could consider the latter stages of qualifying (quarter-final at least for sure) as equivalent to group stage & quarter final tournament matches in bigger tournaments.
Imo we often make a mistake of assuming the best player as being capable of leading. I've never seen any leadership qualities from Messi and as such unlike other people his decision to quit won't make me question his character/leadership. I might be harsh but I don't even remember any moment where I could say he was displaying qualities of being the leader of either Barcelona or Argentina. Anyway I still believe his decision was based on emotions and I expect to see him in 2018 World Cup. The challenge is that 2 years is a very long time for a player who is already 29. When you take into account that the tournament will be held in Russia, and some of the key players will also be older it means it will be double hard to win with Argentina. Unfortunately the public will probably not take into account the fact that he will be older by then. It is no win situation for him, and even if he rescinds his decision I think the pressure from public is going to be even more.
Yeah, I agree with that. The trouble is that it's hard to figure out how players played in those matches. There's not videos of most of those matches (especially prior to the QFs), nor are there many contemporaneous reports. It's fairly easy for people to remember or quantify how a pure striker did (i.e. we can easily see that Gerd Muller came through in qualifying by remembering goals, watching highlights, and/or looking at the box score), but it's hard to really say whether a player like Cruyff played well or not, unless you watched those matches at the time and have an oddly strong memory of it.
I am sick and tired of hearing people defend Messi because he retired. This goes to show how weak his leadership skills are. A good captain never quits, he is supposed to be the moral compass of the team regardless of results. I can empathize with the fact that he has lost 4 finals, and that he missed his penalty, we are all humans and we are error prone. But I would never expect such weakness from the Captain of a team. How is the team supposed to look up to someone who cant handle adversity. Its very easy to put on that armband and take pride of being the leader... but you should know that when things go south and your team is lost, you better be ready to rally them. Maradona ( who I don't happen to be a huge fan of) said it before the Copa began" Lionel Messi lacks the character required to be a Captain". I was very critical of Thiago Silva in 2014, when he started crying like a girl right before the penalties vs Chile. FOR GODS SAKE!!! You are supposed to be the toughest player in the team!!! Puyol, Bufon or Casillas wouldn't retire , those are good captains. Messi is just a player.
Yeah, I know what you mean. This is as good as I can share I think (Puck can show you him vs Poland at home too though): To some extent (using Bada Bing's favoured end product evaluation) it's possible to tally up contributions to goals etc I suppose.
Those players didn't really fail him in general they just failed at certain moments. I mean, Higuain had good moments in the past 2 world cups as well as a couple of bad misses, just like Messi. If your definition of "failing" is that broad I'm sure tonnes of others fit into that category. e.g. it wouldn't be too hard to find "name" players in Spain jerseys who failed Iniesta yesterday and another 3 that failed him in the Confederations Cup final in 2013.
Please do name the players who had name players as Aguero who ghosted three competitions, Di Maria who was injured three competitions never reaching to the end and Higuain who missed three easy chances and penalty in three finals? Thats why Argentina is called great team, because these name players, and who couldn't do muchwhat was needed from them, from various reasons, Di Maria fitness, Aguero fitnes/apaty and Higuain who's known pressure choker.
As usual your criteria is tailor-made so that only Messi can fit it, and not necessarily in a good way. I mean, it would be difficult for anyone else to satisfy those conditions only because not too many players lose 3 or more finals. But I mentioned Iniesta, who lost one final (despite playing well) and won a WC final despite most of his teammates being mediocre in that game. Would Iniesta's int'l career have been more impressive to you had he not taken matters in his own hands by scoring the winning goal in the 2010 final and Spain went on to lose in a PK shootout?
Did he create that goal or did someone greate the chance for him? Did Xavi fail him, did Villa play worse than Higuain and so on? No. All three players played good to great in their tournaments.
Messi missed the first penalty in a shootout where Vidal, the first taker had already missed the first one for Chile. He threw away the opportunity to put his team ahead in the scorecard increasing the pressure for Chile.
You're shifting the goalposts here. Higuain actually had a solid tournament this time around, scoring two goals apiece in the QFs and SFs. He just wasn't good in the finals. Villa had a very good 2010 WC, but he wasn't super good in the finals. He didn't have a chance like Higuain's, so Higuain was certainly worse, but it's not an entirely different thing. You say Higuain failed Messi because he did not play well in the finals specifically, and then refuse to acknowledge the same regarding Villa because Villa had played really well earlier in the tournament. And that actually reveals one of your logical inconsistencies in general. Messi purportedly is the best NT player ever despite not doing particularly well in finals, because he played well in earlier matches. Yet a guy like Higuain is supposedly awful and was carried by Messi merely because he wasn't good in the finals. Higuain often played well in those earlier matches too, but you only care about performances in those matches when it is Messi doing well.
Iniesta drew the red card and scored the winner in ET in a match that saw few chances before the red. Sure Xavi and Villa played great (just like some of Messi's teammates in 2014, I might add), but others didn't. Pedro threw away a couple of clear chances against Germany and Torres was far worse than Higuain. The Dutch also had 2 one-on-one's in that final so Puyol was obviously out-matched by Robben. It's not like Iniesta's teammates were all magnificent in every game.
2010 for one. Got 3 MotM awards, plus was Spain's best player in their fluke loss to Switzerland. So 4 times Spain's best player, including the final itself. Think that qualifies as a great tournament.
Villa was awarded bronze ball, and he was better than Iniesta. So he wasn't even Spains best player, nevermind of dominating a tournament, nevermind of dominating three.
I would compare Messi's NT legacy to that of Riquelme's at this point in time. Especially the period between 2014 and 2016 for Messi IMO is very similar to what Riquelme achieved between 2005 and 2007. The following is how I see it for these two, for the tournaments played during those years, Confed Cup 2005 Riquelme = Copa America 2015 Messi (Both not great but good) World Cup 2006 Riquelme < World Cup 2014 Messi (Great in group stages but then tapered off) Copa America 2007 Riquelme > Copa Centenario 2016 Messi (With 5 goals each and great through most of the tournament) I understand that Roman's Argentina did not achieve as much as Messi's did at World Cup level, but considering that in 2014 Argentina did not score any goals in the Final and Semifinal and went through on a solitary goal in the Quarters, I think Riquelme's performance for Argentina can be readily compared to Messi's, given that they were knocked out after giving up a one goal lead in the Quarters and losing on PK's. On the other hand, Messi's Copa Centenario while statistically strong, falls short of Riquelme's Copa 07, as Messi was a sub for most of the initial part of the tournament. IMO the NT tournament performances prior to 2014 and post 2007 for Messi can be cancelled out against an early performance bonus for Riquelme, since he was able to start performing from his first tournament as the centre of the team, while Messi took the experience of the 2010 WC and 2011 Copa to get his bearings (also these tournaments can be considered either good or bad for Messi's legacy depending on one's perspective so setting them aside shouldn't be an issue for this discussion). The pre-2010 Messi tournament performances can be compared to Riquelme's 1999 Copa performances. All in all, while Messi would probably lead Riquelme statistically, in terms of his goal involvement, if compared over the three tournaments of each players' NT prime; this statistical advantage of Messi is IMO nullified by Riquelme's greater involvement in playmaking duties by comparison, over the period mentioned.
A Confederations Cup performance can hardly be considered as important or at the same level as a Copa America performance. The CC is not completely worthless, but it isn't actually comparable. Besides, Messi got the Player of the Tournament award in the 2015 CA--and rightfully so. He didn't dominate the tournament, but there's really no basis whatsoever to give it a "not great but good" rating, unless your threshold for "great" is so high that the player of the tournament might not achieve it. I also don't think there's a strong basis for saying that Riquelme's 2007 CA was better than Messi's 2016 CA. To begin with, Riquelme was much worse in the finals than Messi was. You say there were 5 goals each, but one of Riquelme's was a penalty. You say Messi was a sub in the early rounds, but Riquelme was out in one of the group stage matches too. I'm not sure one can criticize Messi's Panama performance on the basis of being a sub. If anything, it was more impressive because of how quickly it happened. In my mind, the two guys were about equally dominant until the finals, where Messi was better. One could say that Riquelme had more influence on the group stage results overall, I suppose, given that Messi was only really influential in one match, while Riquelme was influential in two. I'd agree to that. But, for me, that is counteracted by Messi having a better finals match and by the fact that Messi had a better semifinals. I'd call these tournaments pretty even, overall. Also, you don't mention Messi's 2007 CA, where he was one of the top few players of the tournament. I get that it wasn't in his full prime, but being one of the best few players in a tournament is not something that can be ignored. Was Riquelme one of the best few players in the 1999 Copa?