How come England can produce a true #10?

Discussion in 'England' started by fuentga, Oct 13, 2002.

  1. fuentga

    fuentga New Member

    Aug 12, 2002
    Buenos Aires
    Folks..I dont mean to challenge here but over the years I have noticed that England has not developed a #10 playmaker along the lines of a Pele, Zico, Maradona, Valderrama, 0rtega, Del Piero, Ronaldo, Rivaldo, Ron Gaucho, Juninho Paulisto, Figo, Z.Z. etc..

    It seems from the outside that England tends to punish creative players..Rix, Hoddle, Waddle, Alan Hudson, Rodney Marsch, LeTessier..etc..

    The closest they have come to a true #10 is Gazza in recent memory..I always laugh when I see that England wants Scholes to be the playmaker..he does not have the visison or the skills to play in that position..

    In Latin America they seem to grow them on trees..see Pablo Aimar, Saviola, Tevez, among others..

    So, what is going on?..Can this explain the lack of major success at the WC since '66?
     
  2. ursula

    ursula Member

    Feb 21, 1999
    Republic of Cascadia
    I think I'll move this over to the England forum....there just may be more of a response there...
     
  3. appoo

    appoo Member+

    Jul 30, 2001
    USA
    I'm not sure what number Paul Scholes wears but I always thought he was one of the best playmakers in the world. And he has a great understudy in Owen Hargraeves. I mean, us Americans have a #10 in Reyna and a future playmaker in Kyle Martino, but i'd rather have Scholes and Hargraeves than Reyna and Martino
     
  4. sinner78

    sinner78 BigSoccer Supporter

    Nov 7, 2001
    Ever heard of Joe Cole???
     
  5. Belgian guy

    Belgian guy Member+

    Club Brugge
    Belgium
    Aug 19, 2002
    Belgium
    Club:
    Club Brugge KV
    Cole is good, but he has never proven himself on the highest level (world cup, champions league). Sven seems to see him as a wildcard he can put on when things aren't going Englands way, rather than a starter on the nr 10 position. But let's face it, this isn't really a problem that only England has, is it? A greatly talented side as the Dutch don't have a real nr. 10 either, Ballack comes close, but tells the people himself he doesn't consider himself to be a nr. 10, so neither do the Germans. According to me only 3 sides in Europe have real old fashion nr. ten, namely Portugal with Rui Costa, France with Zidane and Italy with Totti. Raul could do it, but his position in the Spanish NT seems to be more of a support striker. So it is hardly a shame for a nation not to produce a great nr. 10, considering that according to me right now only about 10-15 guys are good enough to pull it of succesfully on the highest level...
     
  6. Prenn

    Prenn Member

    Apr 14, 2000
    Ireland
    Club:
    Bolton Wanderers FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Also the concept of a continental style #10 in English football is a bit off, In England the #10 is a striker. The playmaker is usually a central midfielder these days, they used to be wingers but not anymore.

    Saying England doesn't have a '#10' is akin to saying that Italy don't have any wingers.
     
  7. Clan

    Clan Member

    Apr 23, 2002
    I was just about to say that the current European Footballer of the year is an excellent #10...;)
     
  8. SJFC4ever

    SJFC4ever New Member

    May 12, 2000
    Edinburgh
    Well that is the point exactly. In "British" (I say British because there is no #10 concept in Scotland either) football, Owen is given the #10 shirt. On the continent, he would be given the #9, because he is a goal-getter who plays on the shoulder of the last defender.

    Using the continental definition of #10, Scholes is by far the closest England has. Yet he is rarely used there.

    There would be an argument for playing two wingers and no #10 if England had good wingers on each side. Yet they only have Beckham on the right (and even he likes to come inside), and nothing on the left.

    What would make more sense is a 4-3-1-2 with Scholes as the 1. I understand they used this in the second half against Slovakia, and it worked pretty well then.
     
  9. Doctor Stamen

    Doctor Stamen New Member

    Nov 14, 2001
    In a bag with a cat.
    In time, Matt Jansen may be a sort of 'Number 10', that the original poster was reffering to. I think that the current crop of players would find it a bit difficult to play in a system with a No. 10 in the Figo, Rivaldo etc. mould.
     
  10. sydtheeagle

    sydtheeagle New Member

    May 21, 2002
    Oxfordshire
    I always laugh when I see people call a Champions League Winning, triple medal holding, multi-premiership title winning fulcrum of perhaps the best domestic team ever produced in England, who has consistently scored and made goals at international level and whom people who actually know something about football consider one of England's few truly world class players, somehow lacking in vision.
     
  11. Pigs

    Pigs Member

    Everton FC
    England
    Mar 31, 2001
    Everywhere and nowhere
    Club:
    Everton FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Are you kidding?
     
  12. Doctor Stamen

    Doctor Stamen New Member

    Nov 14, 2001
    In a bag with a cat.
    He has been a bit of the boil for England recently. I'm a bit concerned about young Joe Cole though, he seems to be a bit of a show pony with his tricks and flicks with no end product.
     
  13. Jawz10

    Jawz10 Moderator

    Feb 27, 1999
    Indianapolis
    Club:
    AC Milan
    From what I've seen, English sides don't even make use of traditional, "continental" #10's. The playmaking in England comes from the wings which maybe explains one of numerous reasons why Manchester United and Arsenal have done so well in recent times. They have phenomonal wingers in Giggs, Beckham, Pires, Wiltord, (Henry to an extent).

    I've always felt that a player like Zidane could not play in England. Not because he isn't talented enough or strong enough, but because his position on the field is not generally applied in the Premiership. Maybe thats what happened to Veron also.
     
  14. pololo

    pololo Member

    Jun 1, 2000
    Sweden/Stockholm
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Chile
    In Europe they really don't care about the real nr 10 player.
    In Europe they train the whole team as one not like in South America where there is always a super "10" who is the leader in the team and makes some great football(Maradona,Zico,Pele,Valderrama etc)

    England shouldn't use Paul Scholes as the 10# playmaker unless they want to embarass themself.
    He doesn't have the ability.
     
  15. Mobile

    Mobile New Member

    Jul 29, 2002
    Melbourne
    Scholes is the most technically gifted English player and is the only English player capable of playing in that role. He could do it but his game is more suited to stealthy runs from the midfield.
     
  16. ROM2

    ROM2 New Member

    Apr 27, 2000
    Tony Currie
    Alan Hudson
    Stan Bowles
    Rodney Marsh

    How many times did they represent England?...all were capable of the #10 role.

    Cole and Owen can currently play there but the system doesn't accomodate them. Any other country would've bloodied Cole by now so that he would develope the confidence to play at the top level...England can produce the raw talent but then they stifle it.
     
  17. sinner78

    sinner78 BigSoccer Supporter

    Nov 7, 2001
    yeah ,alot of raw talent goes to waste...
    I wish we could take advantage of all the talent out there .Over in argentina thay work with kids as young as 8 years old and develop their skills ....Kids only start working with clubs in their teens over here (probably due to child labour laws)..
     
  18. Prenn

    Prenn Member

    Apr 14, 2000
    Ireland
    Club:
    Bolton Wanderers FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Cole would have been played for 20 games before they realised what we already know: He's a glorified 5-a-side player with a lot of potential but not much end product.
     
  19. ROM2

    ROM2 New Member

    Apr 27, 2000
    Currently Cole plays as a standard midfield player trying to balance attack with defence - if he was groomed to play a more offensive role his 'end product' would be better.Only Gazza has played the standard mid role with great success. Beardsley,Hoddle
    and waddle could also have done well in the'hole'. With an attitude like the above how can you wonder why England don't produce many #10's - it's not all about passion and getting 'stuck in'.
     
  20. minorthreat

    minorthreat Member

    Jan 1, 2001
    NYC
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Nat'l Team:
    Spain
    He could, but Juan Carlos Valeron already fills the #10 role.
     
  21. Prenn

    Prenn Member

    Apr 14, 2000
    Ireland
    Club:
    Bolton Wanderers FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    eh?

    Cole has got a lot of tricks up his sleeve and he's a very skilful player but he often plays himself into trouble and seems to concentrate more on poncing about with the ball than setting up plays. He's got a lot of flair but he lacks the essential ingredient at present; creativity.
     
  22. rymannryan

    rymannryan New Member

    Aug 27, 2002
    N.N., Virginia
    Re: Re: How come England can produce a true #10?


    Agreed.
     
  23. Slash/ED

    Slash/ED New Member

    Apr 19, 2002
    Dublin
    Scholes isn't an overly creative player, he rarely plays 25 yard defence splitting passes, which is why Man U signed Veron. This isn't to say he isn't class, but he isn't an espically good player at splitting defences open with a pass or run, that's just not his game. Owen wears the number 10, but is nothing like the player being described in the opening post and never will be, he's a goal poacher. Matt Le Tiss was amazing, how he wasn't a main stay in the England team is beyond me (Actually, no, it's not, he didn't play for one of the 'big teams').

    As for Cole, he's all backheels and no end product, England have better. Gerrard can be creative, but has alot of defencive ability to so that normally gets over looked, Danny Murphy on his day can also do a job there, he's a very under rated player, but England don't have an 'in the hole' play maker because English domestic sides don't usually play that system so those players are rarely produced and when they are the English managers can't find a system that everyone can work in to suit them.
     
  24. Turk from Pigs Eye

    Turk from Pigs Eye New Member

    Jun 14, 2002
    Pigs Eye (St. Paul),
    More and more teams are getting by without a #10. Look at Colorado, New England, and Chicago in MLS. Colorado got rid of Valerrama, New England went to MLS Cup without a #10, and Chicago traded Nowack. DC has Etcheverry and they have struggled.

    You don't have to have a #10 to win football games. I don't think England did all that bad in the World Cup without one. They passed out of the group of death, Argentina didn't.
     
  25. lanman

    lanman BigSoccer Supporter

    Aug 30, 2002
    Germany have never had a "#10", and it hasn't stopped them being the second most successful nation in World Cup history.
     

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