I think the fact that Paris is not a big football city hurts the game a lot. Imagine if Paris was a big football city like London,Liverpool,Milan. You could have multiple big money teams. Imagine if Paris had 3 or 4 clubs in the 1st division that would be very good for the game. This 1 club 1 town thing in France I think hurts the overall game a little. If the city of Marseille was in another country they'd probably have another 1st division club. Now granted the cities in Europe that have more than 1 1st division team most of them only 1 of the teams are big for example like Madrid and Bareclona and Munich those cities 2nd big clubs aren't successfull but I think if Paris had more teams they would be successfull. The peculiar geography of French urbanization hasn't helped the game.
But Paris does have multiple teams - Racing Club and Red Star 93, not to mention suburban clubs like Noisy-le-Sec. It's just that nobody supports them.
Parisians like to hang out in cafe's, not watch soccer, but there was a pretty good Parisian derby some years ago. It's only a matter of time before we see another Parisian club emerge in division 1.
No you are right on Marseille is the only large football city there are plenty of smaller towns that are big football areas like the ones you mentioned. Nantes and St.Etienne are big football towns too. I think besides Marseille the whole southeast of France isn't big on football because Nice, Cannes, Monaco,etc. aren't big football cities.
One reason I have heard given is that in France, Paris so overwhelms the rest of the coutnry (in terms of jobs, prestige, etc) that people from the provinces tend to go to Paris to work. And those who are soccer fans tend to keep the allegence to their "home" team. It is not the same in the US, as there several "magnet" cities -- and people move around alot more. The US is more spread out in terms of cities. If you want to make it in government, sure there is Washington, but also the state capitals. Finance has New York and Boston, media has New York and LA, art, culture, etc has lots of different cities. No one city predominates.
My point was that if Paris had multiple big clubs like large cities in other countries do that would help the game in France because you'd have more clubs with the chance to do well.
I agree with you. My point was that the reason Paris has only one big club is because of cultural reasons in France.
I think the point about migration to Paris is a valid one. I have a few friends in France, who all moved to Paris at one time. One guy supported Gueugnon, the other Marseille (he wasn't from there) and the third PSG. The last guy moved when he was young so it was perfect for him to support PSG. If Paris would have a second team make a move towards the 1st division that would be great, but the French leagues don't have the money in them that the rest of Europe does. Racing Club is a famous club, Red Star, and a couple of others - but none will make a move unless Bill Gates or Big Phil Anshutz decides they want a Parisian football club.
Point of migration. Paris overwhelms when it comes to a lot of things. Sure, Toulouse has the planes and space stuff and other cities have their specialities but Paris still overwhelms. Paris really dominates. It's not just that. Every French city of any size has just one team. The French love their football. Just not enough fanatics. I mean look at Auxerre. A small city. A long-term coach, yeah. But still a city of that size, money-wise, would have a hard time making it in Italy or England. So there are good things too.
Also there are large parts of the South especially in the southwest that are fanatic about Rugby. Also I just notice today that the NBA may have 3 players from a team in Pau. Also getting back to my last post. I recall a chart in SA about the smallest towns in France to ever have a team in first. This was from last year. I think when Guingamp was in first. Anyway, it has a population of 8,800 if I'm correct. Can you imagine that in England or Italy? I think that's a good thing.
Chievo is a suburb of Verona. The official name is AC Chievo Verona. http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.ad...rona&state=&zipcode=&country=IT&addtohistory= The stadium on a map. But you would be more correct if a millionaire owner took over the team and lead it far which has happened before. Like Livingston in the SPL(well two years ago and the years before) or Blackburn before the mid-90s. I mean they were already a decent team but a millionaire owner took them to new heights
And remember, Chievo is the second Verona team. 2-3 years ago they had two teams in Serie A, so imagine Farmington, CT playing 2 teams in the NFL. I don't think Paris is France's problem. I just think the French philosophy of life doesn't view the football the way that Italy and Spain does. Paris is a huge city with the population, wealth, relevance and media attention to support a Manchester United or a Barca if the French football culture was the same as the cultures of England or Spain, it just isn't. That isn't Paris' fault, it just that Paris is the capital and you look for it to lead the way. Paris being a lower level soccer capital didn't stop them from winning the world cup, and what the heck else matters? If you had a choice and you could pick 3 of 4 things, which would you leave out: 1. World Cup championship 2. European Championship 3. The best player on the planet 4. A strong club soccer league Yes, French club soccer isn't what German, Spanish or Italian club soccer is, but it's because of France, not Paris.
Dennis I'm not following you. Chievo is a suburb of Verona, and Chievo's population is about 23,000. They are owned by a millionaire who makes Christmas cakes and stuff and they sucked for a long time. The son took over the team and now they are in Serie A, played in the UEFA Cup and are a top 10 team. They were struggling for years and are successful in one of the most demanding leagues in the world. Can you explain the differences for me?
We'll give that other team to Hartford instead. Here's some interesting numbers: Average Attendance in France: France 19.676 Top Club: Olympique de Marseille 48.326 I'm not positive, but I'm pretty sure PSG averages near capacity, around 33,000 for the Parc de Princes. They support the power club in town, those that support the game at all. Those are pretty good numbers for any club in the world except those super clubs. Another thing about Paris, they offered the Stade de France to PSG and they refused because they thought it was too big and they would lose the atmosphere. Okay I forgot what we were talking about.
They jumped, what, 3 divisions in 15 years after 50 years as an amateur side. That isn't long term success. If they can stay there in Serie A, for 20 years or so, then you can eat my cake. And I will applaud them for that. France is France. They spread their sports around. They like their cycling, rugby, soccer and other sports. It's less fanatical in most parts. Marseille and PSG take care of that. Few places have such an overwhelming support for soccer as in Italy. Few places where the sport means so much and domestic success means so much. Anyway, Lens, pop. 35,000, has been in Ligue 1 for 50 years. Not bad. The smallest pop of the top 100 towns in Italy is Aosta with 37,000. Anyway, take a look at this site. http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Arena/4125/frattend.html One of the cool things one realizes by looking at this is that Guingamp and Lens both average attendances larger than the populations of their respective cities.
So how long were Guingamp in the 1st division? It is very cool when a city has larger attendance than their city, but that speaks for the regionalization of the catchement areas. Back to Chievo, you have to praise their achievements on the fact that they not only survived in a BIG MONEY league, they thrived. Regardless if it took them 10 years to get out of Serie C, they made the jump from Serie B to Uefa Cup. that's impressive on its on merits. Now back to France, so the gist of this is Paris supports its TEAM, PSG - with a capacity crowd of 38,000+ - very impressive. So in fact its not that Paris hurts football support in France, but the USA effect of having more than one sport to follow. Its probably still the top sport in the country, but with so many small towns having teams, and so many small towns having teams in other sports - attendance on the whole is affected. Even so, I think it ranks in the Top 10 in the world in average attendance. That's pretty impressive when you consider the makeup of the cities in the 1st Ligue.
ok so for the 2003-04 season can someone list what divisions all the Paris clubs and surrounding suburban clubs will be in ? I'm not sure if any are even above the 4th division cept maybe Cretiel.
Lens is a better example than Guingamp. Anyway, I applaud Chievo. At least they are coming close to disturb the top five of Serie A. "That's pretty impressive when you consider the makeup of the cities in the 1st Ligue" Yes. A bunch of relatively smaller cities compared to other leagues. "It is very cool when a city has larger attendance than their city, but that speaks for the regionalization of the catchement areas. " I was going to say that. It's true in Chievo's case. I don't know. I looked on the map and they looked about five miles from downtown Verona. Maybe it's my American eyes, that looks like a part of the city even if they are separate. Rather like the proud people of Carouge. "Even so, I think it ranks in the Top 10 in the world in average attendance. That's pretty impressive when you consider the makeup of the cities in the 1st Ligue." Especially when you consider waning hopes of one of the better supported teams of the past in St.Etienne(in one of the better stadiums in the country). Anyway, attendance is getting better. Slightly down this year. I suspect that Nice and the two Corsican teams had something to do with that. Anyway, things are getting better. Paris Clubs in CFA2 and higher: Next Year's teams aren't listed yet on fff.fr So these are the teams from last year. CF2 RED STAR 93 Creteil 2 AUBERVILLIERS IVRY US CFA Noisy-le Sec (Just outside of Paris) PARIS FC PARIS SG 2 Racing CF VIRY CHATILLON National Racing CF D2 Creteil Some of these are on the edges of the city limits so I'm not sure. I probably left out a couple. Paris has had several teams in D1 and D2 in the last 25 years. Racing Paris(From Paris FC), Red Star, Viry-Châtillon, US Créteil, and PSG. Say what you will about French football but few leagues provide the history of smaller clubs doing well in the domestic cup. Take a look at last year's 16. FC Bourg-Péronnas (4) AJ Auxerre (1) FC Martigues (3) FC Metz (2) SC Schiltigheim (5) Toulouse FC (2) AS Angoulême Charente (3) Guingamp (1) Libourne-St-Seurin (4) Stade Rennais (1) FC Lorient (2) Lille OSC (1) Stade Lavallois (2) Paris-Saint-Germain FC (1) FC Girondins Bordeaux (1) ES Wasquehal (2) Sure most of them lost. But still there's the possiblity. And unlike in England, most of these games were played in the smaller stadia.
One thing that makes France such a good competition is the lack of money in the game. Its possible for anyone to have a good season and win the league. Its also great that PSG and Marseille do not dominate the league despite their size and economic advantages. You look at the other leagues in Europe and you see the same teams on top every year, not so in France. Dennis can you list the French Champion and runner-ups for the past few years for me?
"Its possible for anyone to have a good season and win the league. Its also great that PSG and Marseille do not dominate the league despite their size and economic advantages." Yes, but they don't have the fall, in economic terms, that happens a good deal in South Americans soccer. I mean PSG and Marseilles still maintain relative economic survival. It's not like they are in the trouble that Monaco is right now(always a precarious situation) or in which Fiorentina found itself in a couple of years ago. Of course, there was the match fixing scandal for Marseilles a while back. Since then the game seems to be in a flux. "One thing that makes France such a good competition is the lack of money in the game." I believe this is good. The haves and haves nots difference is destroying the game in some aspects in some countries. Top six for each year since 93-94 93-94 Paris_SG Marseille Auxerre Bordeaux Nantes Cannes 94-95 Nantes-Atlantique Olympique Lyonnais Paris-Saint-Germain FC AJ Auxerre RC Lens AS Monaco 95-96 Auxerre Paris SG Monaco Metz Lens Montpellier 96-97 AS Monaco Paris Saint-Germain FC Nantes Girondins de Bordeaux FC Metz AJ Auxerre 97-98 RC Lens FC Metz - AS Monaco Olympique de Marseille 5.Girondins de Bordeaux 6.Olympique Lyonnais 98-99 Girondins de Bordeaux Olympique de Marseille Olympique Lyonnais AS Monaco Stade Rennais RC Lens 99-00 AS Monaco Paris Saint-Germain FC Olympique Lyonnais FC Girondins de Bordeaux RC Lens AS Saint-Etienne (relegated next season) 00-01 FC Nantes Atlantique Olympique Lyonnais Lille OSC (promoted side) FC Girondins de Bordeaux CS Sedan-Ardennes (relegated two seasons later) Stade Rennais FC 01-02 Olympique Lyonnais RC Lens AJ Auxerre Paris Saint-Germain FC Lille OSC FC Girondins de Bordeaux ES Troyes AC (relegated next season) 02-03 Olympique Lyonnais AS Monaco FC Olympique de Marseille FC Girondins Bordeaux FC Sochaux-Montbéliard (promoted previous year. Finished 8th) AJ Auxerre