I see where you're coming from, but I'll never understand. My team is my team is my team. I'm that kind of guy. I don't care who the owner is, I don't care who the GM is, and I don't really care where we sit in the standings. My team is my team. Not trying to chastise anyone, just trying to explain where I'm coming from.
the winning thing is oversimplified. they maintained 19-20k for 3 years after they began to suck. they went up in attendance the year after 2010. this is sustained grinding down. if i indulgently treated their approach as tactical choice of "moneyball" rather than neglect, implicit in the cheapness choice is the decision not to have a tentpole marquee player, a chicharito, who would cost money but also be a fan magnet regardless how the season went. many of us don't want that, we'd rather have a competitive team than a shiny object. but if you go moneyball and elect no star name, and then your no-names embarrass, what is the magnet for the casual fan other than come watch soccer and support your team?
My question isn't why don't we attract the casual fan, it's why we don't have more than roughly 5k die-hards in Houston, and why are our supporters' sections barren. I've also always wondered why we have three supporters sections.
i think we're conflating buying a ticket with being a true fan when TV is available. some people have had negative organizational experiences. others follow the team on TV but no longer buy tickets. they are still on here discussing the team but no longer paying for a ticket. i have zero against that. i don't consider them less of fans. i think due to europe some associate supporting with attending but i don't think people realize how hard it is to see EPL there on TV. which forces you to pubs or in person. and then like i said, if it's the local team, in some cities it's like a short walk away. it's almost a community activity.
the 2010 example may not be the best as having priority access to seats in the new stadium could have driven up ticket sales a lot for 2011
I don't think that there are enough people in those Dynamo SG's to even come close to the Austin folks. Their ranks have diminished massively over the past 7 years, some groups have disappeared (Brick Wall), 1 arose in the Widder era, but I honestly don't know how many are in that one or why it was so quickly sanctioned as a valid SG. There was once a time when the traveling supporters for the Dynamo were a sight to be seen, caravans to Dallas, a 12 hour drive to KC with a few hundred. 2012 at the MLS Cup
I just really love this team, regardless of anything else. #ForeverOrange means Forever Orange to me, I just wish we had more of those people here.
That will only happen when real change occurs and the team is consistent in making the playoffs. The current NBA experience FO made a conscious decision to focus on supporters groups and attempt to mirror the LAFC and Portland type visuals. They did this to the detriment of the folks who actually pay the real money for season tickets in other areas. I honestly don't know what ownership was thinking at the time, did they actually believe that bringing in management and ticket sale techniques that worked for the Cavaliers would lift the organization out of the slump? Did they actually believe that they could replace the close to 6,000 season ticket holders they lost? There is hope that a new majority owner will make significant improvements in the team, but I fear the votes of the 4 minority owners, 2 of whom were #HoldingItDown way before someone coined the term for the Dynamo. So yes, people are not showing up because they choose not to. But no-one has seen fit to ask the question WHY? I guarantee it's not the amenities in the stadium, the suffocating heat during the summer, or $1 hotdogs. It's because a total lack of investment in building a winning team, along with a mediocre Front Office that hasn't a clue about the sport - that's why people aren't going and it is going to take lots of $$$ and a few years to convince anyone to come back.
Brian, there was a time in 2006 to 2009 that we took over FC Southern Oklahoma's stadium, drowning their crowd out with Houston drums, horns and songs. Away days to Frisco are always fun!
That was over a decade ago . Look, this is just my stance. Most of the teams I follow aren't that good, including my NBA, NFL, and MLB team. Eintracht Frankfurt (my European team) has never been that good, but yet there's 55,000 fans in the stadium every matchday, singing and making the entire stadium shake. I'm not even asking for sellouts, but is it really that implausible that there's 15,000 people in this city willing to show up every two weeks? Forget the SG's for a minute and just think about that.
Our Houston Dynamo averaged 16,000+ while playing as renters in a stadium constructed in 1941 situated in our city's 3rd Ward area. The very fact that you ask this question is placed solely at the feet of those that ran our club in to the ground upon moving to BBVA Stadium downtown. fyp
It's not that, its been a decade since then. And also, 16,000 is OK, but in a stadium that seats almost 40,000 that's less than half full. We averaged 15,600 in 2019. That doesn't really mean anything, because we all know there were only really about 6-7k there each night. Also, what happened in the good ol' days of Robertson was great, but we need people there now. If moving to BBVA killed people's passion for the club, did they really ever have any?
A move is what AEG set out about. Please recall that AEG based in their L.A. home office killed people's passion for a MLS club when AEG ripped a team with a history of winning and a loyal fan base out of the Bay Area after telling those local fans and supporters there that AEG was not able to secure the land deal to construct a Soccer Specific Stadium. Thus, the deal to continue to be renters at a local college gridiron stadium was not the business model AEG was willing to pursue any longer. To then us in Houston got notified a few days later in December of 2005 that AEG is going to be relocating said MLS team to our local college gridiron stadium with no deal in place to secure land to construct a Soccer Specific Stadium. In just months to launch Houston into MLS in 2006, everyone that loved the beautiful game here in Houston got behind AEG's relocation project with all the good will and tremendous outpouring Houstonians could. So much so that the moved players went on a tear even though they had just up and moved their entire lives and families to get to Gulf Coast Texas, not know what to expect from soccer fans and supporters here in the Deep South. The connection between the players and the community was earned and well documented by all of us that lived it. When the political machine finally was able to close the deal with AEG to get BBVA Stadium constructed, the move was to be the final piece to the entire financial unplanned plan by AEG out in L.A. With this all in perspective and I trust understood, our players and the club began to enter into a new era by the move downtown in 2012 as one by one players like Onstad retired or players like De Ro moved to another club or players like Holden and Cameron and Clark got sold to clubs in Europe (often for much less than their play commanded but that is another thread topic). All this while attendance was well documented as above anyone at AEG had expected to receive when moving to our part of the United States. Dallas didn't draw flies before we got our team and we showed MLS what Texans can do to pack a stadium for MLS. Please understand this incredible showing of support in the stands. What has occured since 2013 is the fumbling and bumbling of our FO where the treatment of fans and supporters is well documented on our boards via the upper FO with their odd way of he past regime of our FO going long on blaming anyone but themselves for the continued core rot of our fan base by the thousands of season ticket holders and then blamed the ticket buying customer for being the central problem at our club. Instead of continuing to cultivate the connection the club had received from our community as all of us fans and supporters began to endure these many lame years of playoff failure, phantom talent from the Chilean National Team and even worse player sales for profit. Even the most forever orange of a fan is not going to take the blame for something they had no part in doing but are getting barked at for it all. Simply put Brian, you can't piss on a man's hat and tell him it's raining. Are you not grasping the mega theme here?
As an original season ticket holder who bailed out a few years ago after 10+seasons of having multiple season tickets, its a cumulative effect of the following: - poor investment in the on-field product (mainly after Brener took over) - poor investment in the stadium staffing, concessions, you name it on the business side - an unfortunate choice of going house-poor by building a cheap stadium in a premium location (Downtown) which turned out to be a middling choice (should have spent more on the stadium in a less-central location; NOTE: Austin, Nashville, Columbus, etc. all are not downtown stadiums but are very nice) - an oddly concerted effort to "upscale" their fanbase after moving to BBVA that sort of converted the crowd from core fans to fleeting fans (which included the former club president pressuring me to renew my tickets in 2013 well before the deadline or release them so he could sell them to someone else or assign them to a sponsor) - the application of NBA-style Front Office business techniques that were used "successfully" on a team that had LeBron James playing for it and then pivoting to attempt to turn Houston into a Cascadia club with a giant supporters section at the expense of other cusomters But to reiterate what @nbrooks503 said, ultimately if there is not a decent on-field product, the rest of it doesn't matter. I think I saw where since the Dash started in 2014, the Dynamo/Dash combined organization has only 1 playoff appearance in 16 combined seasons of soccer (I am assuming both do not make the playoffs this year). That's a tremendous record of failure in leagues where about half the teams make the playoffs each year.
You know, as I was reading this great discussion it got me to thinking. Brian and I come from DFW and are both Rangers fans. The Rangers have had 2 good years in their entire history but when we were kids they just plain sucked. But, they had stars. Juan Gonzales, Ruben Sierra, Pudge, Jose Canseco and of course the jewel, the GOAT, the king of kings.... NOLAN FREAKING RYAN! They put people in the seats. One of those sluggers was going to blast one and you never knew when Ryan was going to put on a clinic or beat up Robin Ventura. Who are our stars? Who's Mr. Dynamo? Who puts butts in seats? I truly believe we need to bring in a star and find us a Mr. Dynamo. We need a cast that when we come to the game we know we are going to see some magic. I want to cheer, I want excitement even if we don't win every game. That was what the Rangers used to do, and while it was rarely sold out, the stadium was never empty. I know I'm only one man, but for me, I could care less about a stadium. I would watch the good guys play at Delmar, Rob, BBVA, NRG or a neighborhood pitch where I had to bring my own folding chair. I like our stadium, proud of it, but it is not the sell.
True, and while Nolan is my favorite player of all time, I really loved guys like Rusty Greer, Jeff Huson, Odibe McDowell, Steve Buechele and Pete O'Brian. I loved Charlie Hough and Bobby Witt. I don't need you to be a star for me to love you, I just need you to show up and play hard every day. Like I said, I know I'm different here. We went to Cowboys games when they were terrible (end of the Landry era), same with the Mavericks, same with the Rangers. I don't need my teams to be good for me to go, they're my teams.
I grew up in the DFW area, I moved here in 2009. I decided to follow the Dynamo to connect with my stepson in 2013, and just fell in love.
it's fair, but they also had enough goodwill and faith where they wanted those seats in the new playpen.
re the cowboys comment, and "winning" argument, it's being framed somewhat as greed. i've already pointed out that through about '17 we were a fairly resilient fanbase. they kept selling near capacity houses even as the form fell off. but what i think you're endrunning is do they owe us a level of effort/ competence? you mentioned the cowboys, well, over the years they have several super bowls, although mostly historical at this point, but their fans can also expect the playoffs every other year. it's almost like you're saying asking for that is greedy, when in a league where about half make it, a typical team should advance half the time. and if you are at least in the neighborhood of that, the down year you are comforted by the general spirit of being their fan and the fact that probably next year you make your run. it balances out in the wash. now, to be fair, there is seattle, and they manage it every year. and we used to be almost like that. but we were still pulling 19-20k when peoiple felt like it was competitive and compelling, even when it was actually going to be an off year. having been spoiled rotten i actually think that is well adjusted. no, sorry, but you can see where the attendance plummeted as sucking became a regular thing. and as the casual and regular fan alike began to put 2+2 together about our payroll. that is the second thing here. 1 is we have pivoted over from great to a$$ and you're getting on our case for wanting to occasionally win sometimes. my general impression is long ago the average fan here gave up on the old dynamo annual title dreams. we'd just like to occasionally be right side of the table. but 2 is that this is not TFC. we are not spending incredible sums only to get bad results. that at least makes you feel like "we tried." we are spending the least of anyone to scratch by near the bottom. we actually have debates about whether we overachieve relative to how little we spend. like how do you spend last and not finish last. people argue whether to save ramos or jordan because they begin working with so little. that is how cheap we are, is one can defend an incompetent by saying anyone who works here has insufficient resources. it becomes almost impossible scientifically to say in an absolute sense someone failed here without weighting it for resources. i personally think ramos has blown several pointable results this year and that tells me what i need to know. he's had his chances and frittered them away. that's at least somewhat on him. but the existence of that line of debate says something. anyhow, i feel like you're finessing that even a casual fan at this point, not knowing the precise numbers as we do, can "feel" that most of the rest of the league is trying harder than we are in terms of what they put out on the field. and while i grant that we are better fan experience than FCD or some teams, i don't think we achieved post 2010 MLS 2.0 or 3.0 era liftoff of full fan participation, and we antagonized the SGs. and if you're saying consider success less, then that end needs to do some heavy lifting. i bring up FCD because IMO having been to a cotton bowl game that was the most quiet, sit on my hands thing i had seen this side of watching QPR play tlive o a scoreless tie once upon a time. i vowed never to go back. i am sure we feel lively by comparison. but IMO on a fan experience spectrum this is just in the middle someplace. we never quite made the transition from MLS 2.0 supporter groups to MLS 3.0 "everyone in the stands cheering." and that to me parallels we have an SSS and private owners and we have never spent like the Beckham Rule exists. at a point we were one of the best attended, most successful teams. the league continued evolving. we need to play catchup. people here can deliver top half attendance. they deserve top half payroll at least. the team needs to grow up. if the fans feel like they are getting the equivalent of dero and davis and ching they will come back. this is the island of misfit toys and sufficiently so that even the casual fan can tell at this point. that and as i've said before, you have other Games in town and if we don't try you're basically conducting a test of how bad people want to watch pro soccer. you're upset it's eroded this far but i actually think the numbers are not bad for a pandemic with a team that hasn't tried in years. you're lucky this is not the 2011-13 astros at this point where the road fans outnumber us. personally i think we have been fairly resilient and indulgent and it's gone on too long at too weak sauce a level.
Until such time as ownership makes a significant increase in spending for player acquisitions, hires a competent technical director and coach, hires people with knowledge of the sport for the FO exec staff, and makes the team one which can compete in the league consistently, yes it's implausible to expect 15k.
which is why i am saying that if you veer moneyball it puts the onus on results like this. if i am not giving you star power wattage, no "nolan ryan," then the no-name product needs to be quietly competitive. we actually briefly accomplished this in the 1-DP era -- even though we barely spent on one -- but this has now accelerated well beyond that and we're still back in 2013 with boniek out there. the last year it felt like we tried was 2017 and that coincides with the last enthusiastic offseason i had. since then it's like i can see what's materializing and know it's not enough before the first ball rolls. which is depressing. and like the arguments being made avoid that sort of "morale" thing. every year the defense is brutal, for most of a decade. this year the offense is also brutal. there is 1 playoff team with as few GF -- MN -- who is bothered to defend. there is 1 playoff team with as many GA -- LA -- who is bothered to attack. this is just not competitive. i could tolerate cyclical. what gets me is constant. this is going to be another 45-50 GA season. like no one seems to figure out what the wingbacks do to the team, and correct it. re the stadium, the Rob had a breeze which made summer games tolerable to me. so i only go to cooler parts of the year. but that's not why i barely make it out anymore. i doubt that aspect affects the attendance or bottom line.